Spitfire variants of BoB

[palacefan]

With one eye on the BoB GB, can anyone tell me what spitfire variants were involved in the BoB please.

Regards.

[bexwh773]

With one eye on the BoB GB, can anyone tell me what spitfire variants were involved in the BoB please.

Regards.

Green & brown ones

Sorry Wayne, couldnt resist it

Bex

[wyverns4]

Hi Wayne,

IIRC it was MK I and some II's. Others may know more though!

happy modeling

Christian

No snow in Uppsala

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Wayne - Spitfire mks I and II both used in BoB, also a few canon armed mk Ibs were tried very briefly - but withdrawn as IIRC the wings weren't stiff enough to take the cannon installation.

Theres a variety of prop fits and windscreen armoured glass on them - best to find a particular pic if you want to model one

Dakadakadakadaka, you could teach monkeys to fly better than that, repeat please?

Cheers

JonKT

[palacefan]

had this response from obi-jiff

The main variant of Spitfire in the Battle of Britain was the MkIa (with bubble canopy, 3-blade prop and 8 machine-guns). The MkIb also saw limited use (as above but with 2 cannon and 2 machine-guns)

Towards the end of the Battle the MkIIa also came into squadrons. This is to all intents and purposes a MkIa, but has a very small bulge on the starboard engine cowl covering an internal engine starter.

Suitable kits are:

1/72 Airfix MkI, Tamiya MkI

1/48 Airfix MkI/II, Tamiya MkI

1/32 Revell MkI/II

1/24 Airfix MkI

Hope that helps.

And yes Bex, they were brown and green

Edited February 12, 2008 by palacefan

[Test Graham]

Adding to the above, the Mk.I (pedantically, not the Mk.1a then) would normally have the DH spinner, and the Mk.II would have the hemispherical Rotol spinner. Either mark could fit either spinner, but it is a pretty good guide.

The usual canopy in the BoB was the one with the raised headroom, not the full bubble with blown sides too.

Despite some kits, the outer machineguns did not protrude.

[Edgar]

The first three Mk.IBs, R6762, R6770 & R6776, were cannon-only wings; the first "standard" B-wing Mk.I wasn't delivered untill August 11th. 19 Squadron had them, and hated the cannon-only a/c, because of persistent stoppages, due to faulty feeds, and ejector mechanisms. The CO pointed out that one faulty gun slewed the Spitfire off course, when the other fired. They also felt that a firing period of six seconds was too short. Most IBs were converted back to IA status.

62 Squadron took delivery of the first IIA, P7282, on August 22nd., 1940.

Although not involved in the fighting (obviously,) there were P.R. Spitfires operating during 1940, and they weren't green and brown.

Edgar

[darson]

Hi there, can someone who knows please tell me the gun/cannon configuration of a Spitfire Mk.Ib? For instance did the Mk.Ib have one cannon plus one inboard machine gun per wing or was it an outboard machine gun? I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

I'd love to build one of these as I have some markings for the kit but I need to know which machine guns the aircraft had.

TIA

[Test Graham]

The first ones were cannon only. The later ones had one cannon inboard and the usual two outboard: same as the Mk.V - as far as I understand. At least, I've never seen anything different described.

[darson]

The first ones were cannon only. The later ones had one cannon inboard and the usual two outboard: same as the Mk.V - as far as I understand. At least, I've never seen anything different described.

Thanks Graham, that's exactly the information I was looking for. Now I'll just have to check the serial on the decals I have to see if I have the cannon only version or not.

Cheers

[Dave Gibson]

The first three Mk.IBs, R6762, R6770 & R6776, were cannon-only wings; the first "standard" B-wing Mk.I wasn't delivered untill August 11th. 19 Squadron had them, and hated the cannon-only a/c, because of persistent stoppages, due to faulty feeds, and ejector mechanisms. The CO pointed out that one faulty gun slewed the Spitfire off course, when the other fired. They also felt that a firing period of six seconds was too short. Most IBs were converted back to IA status.

62 Squadron took delivery of the first IIA, P7282, on August 22nd., 1940.

Although not involved in the fighting (obviously,) there were P.R. Spitfires operating during 1940, and they weren't green and brown.

Edgar

Am I wrong in thinking that 92 squadron tried out some Mk Ibs, but were unhappy about the cannons jamming?

Dave

[Edgar]

So far, I've only been able to find that the (initial) use was by 19 Squadron. Without serial nos, I can't tell who had what, but, certainly, only a few Mk.I Spitfires were built as IBs, and most (if not all) service a/c were converted back to IAs. X4257 is believed to be the first "genuine" 2 x cannon + 4 m/guns, which went to Boscombe Down, then, after the AFDU had it, from January 1941, it was converted to a VB, and then went to 92 Squadron.

Edgar

Edited February 14, 2008 by Edgar

[Erwin]

By the look of things,I can expect a lot of Spitfires in the GB.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Why not? Everyone knows the Spitfire won the Battle...

Jiff von Loveshurricanestobits

[John]

The first ones were cannon only. The later ones had one cannon inboard and the usual two outboard: same as the Mk.V - as far as I understand. At least, I've never seen anything different described.

I think I'm right in saying that the original cannon Mk1s weren't referred to as 1B's. The "B" designation came along with the "B" wing. Weren't they just called Cannon Spitfires, or something such?

John

[Erwin]

Why not? Everyone knows the Spitfire won the Battle...

That statement is open for debate !

Wasn't it the Hurricane ? The Spitfire only being the most well known of the fighters.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

That statement is open for debate !

Hence the whistling!

[Osher]

62 Squadron took delivery of the first IIA, P7282, on August 22nd., 1940.

I read in one of my books that the Mk.II didn't become operational until the autumn, October or November (if memory serves), after the battle. Would you concur with this?

I believe that some flat-top canopy Spitfires took part in the Battle of Britain too, is this correct?

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

I read in one of my books that the Mk.II didn't become operational until the autumn, October or November (if memory serves), after the battle. Would you concur with this?

I believe that some flat-top canopy Spitfires took part in the Battle of Britain too, is this correct?

It all depends when the battle ended, which is a can of worms in itself.

As for the flat-top canopy Spits, I've never seen a photo, but then photographic records of the period are incomplete to say the least, so that proves nothing either way. I always understood that 2-blade props and flat-top canopies had all been replaced by May/June 1940 at the latest, but I don't know of any hard evidence to back that up. It could just be perceived wisdom (ie: one author said it was so, so all the subsequent authors copied him!).

[Osher]

It all depends when the battle ended, which is a can of worms in itself.

According to the RAF website, 31st October 1940

Edited February 15, 2008 by Osher

[wyverns4]

Dont know if it helps...

A day or two past I looked at the famous photograph of a squadron of Sptfire MK I's all lined up in 1939 (IIRC) at Duxford (also IIRC) with the two blade prop. I only noticed one airframe with the early straight canopy.

Although its not concise to prove or disprove it does give alittle circumspectual suggestion that most if not all canopies had been changed over by the BoB.

Just my 2 öre!

Happy modeling

Christian

Its snowing in Uppsala, for now...

[Edgar]

I read in one of my books that the Mk.II didn't become operational until the autumn, October or November (if memory serves), after the battle. Would you concur with this?

I believe that some flat-top canopy Spitfires took part in the Battle of Britain too, is this correct?

Question 1) No, I wouldn't; official records date the Battle running to 31-10-40, not just September, and the II was being delivered from June. P7285, for example, was delivered 5-9-40, and went missing, on ops, 8-10-40; P7290 was delivered to 611 Squadron 14-8-40, and damaged by a Do215 21-8-40.

Question 2) It's entirely possible; mod 283 (which was to fit the Mk.III windscreen & hood) didn't start until 27-7-40.

The old, hoary, question, about which a/c won the Battle, rather depends on your "lies, damned lies, and statistics" position; the Hurricanes shot down more aircraft, but, statistically, the Spitfire had the better airframe to airframe record. I've learnt enough to stay well out of that one.

Whether the first cannon-armed Spitfires were named as such, I don't know, for sure, but I doubt it, since the first trials were run in June 1939, the cannon wings were known as Type 331, and the wing types were named "A" & "B" retrospectively. In 1976 Vickers still couldn't say, exactly, how many cannon-armed Mk.Is there'd been; they said "about 30."

Edgar

[Osher]

Question 1) No, I wouldn't; official records date the Battle running to 31-10-40, not just September, and the II was being delivered from June. P7285, for example, was delivered 5-9-40, and went missing, on ops, 8-10-40; P7290 was delivered to 611 Squadron 14-8-40, and damaged by a Do215 21-8-40.

So, Mk.II Spits would probably have not been operational by the peak of the 15th September?

Question 2) It's entirely possible; mod 283 (which was to fit the Mk.III windscreen & hood) didn't start until 27-7-40.

Why was the new hood introduced? Would a pilot with the original flat-top have been disadvantaged significantly?

The old, hoary, question, about which a/c won the Battle, rather depends on your "lies, damned lies, and statistics" position; the Hurricanes shot down more aircraft, but, statistically, the Spitfire had the better airframe to airframe record. I've learnt enough to stay well out of that one.

If we had had Spitfires in equal quantities to the entire fighter fleet, and no other fighters, would we have been in a better position, or did the Hurricane's airbourne qualities (such as damage sustainability) make up for it's deficiencies, compared to the Spit?

Whether the first cannon-armed Spitfires were named as such, I don't know, for sure, but I doubt it, since the first trials were run in June 1939, the cannon wings were known as Type 331, and the wing types were named "A" & "B" retrospectively. In 1976 Vickers still couldn't say, exactly, how many cannon-armed Mk.Is there'd been; they said "about 30."

Wasn't the Spitfire, during development, conceived a cannon armed fighter, but switched to guns due to reliabilty?

[Test Graham]

So, Mk.II Spits would probably have not been operational by the peak of the 15th September?

Why was the new hood introduced? Would a pilot with the original flat-top have been disadvantaged significantly?

If we had had Spitfires in equal quantities to the entire fighter fleet, and no other fighters, would we have been in a better position, or did the Hurricane's airbourne qualities (such as damage sustainability) make up for it's deficiencies, compared to the Spit?

Wasn't the Spitfire, during development, conceived a cannon armed fighter, but switched to guns due to reliabilty?

If the deliveries were from July, you'd think they were in the squadrons before 15th September. For example, the seventh production aircraft P2586 was with 152 Sq on the 17th August: but this does seem exceptional. Most of the early aircraft were delivered to units in the first and second week of September, so only a handful could have been operational.

The new canopy was introduced to provide more headroom. Note that it still had flat sides at this stage.

The Hurricane had no advantage over the Spitfire that would have counted against such a 1-for 1 swop, but such just wasn't real.

No. The Spitfire was designed for initially four, then eight machine guns. First investigation of a cannon (pre-1930s experiments discounted) for the RAF's fighters was when a Dewoitine D510 was ordered, to investigate the engine mounting. Unfortunately the left hand in the Armaments section didn't actually order the cannon..... The first RAF cannon fighter was the Whirlwind, IIRC - or at least intended to be, but I suspect the Beaufighter got there first.

[Edgar]

So, Mk.II Spits would probably have not been operational by the peak of the 15th September?

Wasn't the Spitfire, during development, conceived a cannon armed fighter, but switched to guns due to reliabilty?

Er, hardly; if P7290 was damaged on August 14th, it predates BoB day by over a month.

The Spitfire Mk.I was the Type 300, the Mark II was Type 329, the Mark III was type 330; with the cannon wings being Type 331 they'd have to be a later development. Also, I think that, if cannon had been part of the original plans, they'd have made a much better fist of the feeds, and fitting them into the wings.

Edgar

Edited February 15, 2008 by Edgar