RAF Phantom

[dahut]

As mentioned before, I got the MoGRev F-4J and was noticing some differences between the Greek, Turkish, JAF and Luftwaffe Phantoms that suggest:

- I cant get to a foreign service model from the parts in the box. THere appears to be some major conversion worl around the nose needed.

- The RAF F-4's seem to be very close to the US variant. It looks like only a minor bit will be needed to bring it to RAF standard.

Is there a good Internet reference that details these things, so I dont miss too much?

All help is vastly appreciated.

Thanks, from this Marmite lovin' Yank.

[silverkite211]

You can build your F-4J as an RAF F-4J(UK). The Royal Air Force was the only foreign user of the F-4J, all other Royal Air Force and Royal Navy Phantoms were Rolls-Royce Spey powered and the fuselage had to be widened and deepened to accommodate the larger engine, in addition to the auxiliary air intakes being moved to the upper sides of the fuselage, as you can see in the photo that's part of my signature. There was only one RAF Sqn. that operated the F-4J(UK), 74 Sqn.

[Col.]

The RAF's F-4Js were refurbished ex-USN machines if memory serves me, including a VX-4 Black Bunny.

Got an old set of Superscale 74 Sqn. decals if you need?

[bexwh773]

Dave,

DamienB has a whole load of decent photos on his website of the Phantoms, including closeups of cockpit, fuselage, engines & gear.

HTH

Bex

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/phantom/index.html

[Bennygman]

- I cant get to a foreign service model from the parts in the box. THere appears to be some major conversion worl around the nose needed.

As the guys have said the RAF ones are pretty different apart from the J(UK)'s. The others you mention would be better off using an E or F as a starting point.

But, would it be possible to produce a Spanish 'C' from the 'J' kit? You might need to alter the sensor under the nose, and maybe the wings, but it's probably easier than trying to convert the 'gun nose' of the other models or the big engines of the RAF ones.

Just a thought (and they looked pretty good in worn 'Vietnam' camo).

Steve.

[Tim]

Basically, the F-4K was a Spey-powered F-4J and the F-4M was a Spey-powered F-4C, so if you're brave enough to convert one, they would be your best starting point. All very well if you want to tackle a 32nd scale conversion but in 48th scale you can of course simply buy the Revell/Hasegawa F-4K/M which is a great kit.

[Trigger]

I have a 1:48 Hasegawa Phantom FGR.2; I don't recall the kit number offhand, but it contains markings and a paint guide for the gray RAF versions. Can I build an earlier RAF (gray/green camouflage) aircraft or even a RN Phantom FG.1 from this kit (with the proper decals of course)?

TIA

[PHREAK]

I have a 1:48 Hasegawa Phantom FGR.2; I don't recall the kit number offhand, but it contains markings and a paint guide for the gray RAF versions. Can I build an earlier RAF (gray/green camouflage) aircraft or even a RN Phantom FG.1 from this kit (with the proper decals of course)?

TIA

You may well have the spares in the kit to do the early version without the tail RHAW top and fins, nevertheless, you can do a camo a/c as the tail upgrade occurred before the advent of grey/grey schemes.

You can not do an FG1 without changing the tail planes as these were slatted.

HTH

[entlim]

there are slatted resins on the market...........

[Tim]

You'd need slatted tailplanes, the "traffic lights" nose gear door and the catapult holes on the underside plus a different rear cockpit. I'd be inclined to just do an FGR2 unless you can track-down the Hasegawa FG1 kit (or maybe wait until it re-appears?).

[Trigger]

First and foremost, thank you all for your help. I do appreciate it and I'm not just saying that because of the following: I'm about to piddle off the British Empire.

I was half right about the Phantom kit I have. It does contain decals and paint guide for a gray/gray aircraft from No. 43 and 111 Squadrons, however I was totally wrong on the version. It is kit #P17, "Phantom FG Mk.1 (Royal Air Force)", not as I mistakenly thought earlier, an FGR.2 kit. I forgot that the RAF got the FG.1s from the RN in the early 80s and since I knew the markings were for an RAF aircraft, I believed the kit to be that of an FGR.2

So I should amend my original question to the following: now that I know which kit I'm starting out with, are my two options with it a Royal Navy aircraft and a post-1979 RAF gray aircraft? And from what I've read of your responses thus far, it looks like this kit can only be built as a Phantom FG.1.

The reason for my not wanting to build the gray RAF aircraft is that I've already slated an F-4J kit to be finished as an F-4J(UK) and I would like to build this Phantom in a different operational color scheme. My first preference is the RAF gray/green scheme, but if that's not possible with this kit, then I have no problem building it as a RN Phantom (since it still would be finished in a scheme different from the pastel grays).

Again, I'm sorry for the error in my original question and thank you all for your help.

[silverkite211]

The good news is that the Hasegawa FG.1 kit comes with the nosegear door for the FGR.2, as well as the neccessary nosegear strut. The bad news is that the FG.1 kit comes with slotted stabilators and the FGR.2 had solid, unslotted stabs. The options that I see at this point are that you can fill in the slotted leading edge of the stabilators, or you can try to find someone who would be willing to trade you their FGR.2 stabs for your FG.1 articles, or I believe that I saw someone in another thread here at Britmodeler make mention of aftermarket resin stabilators being available.

[PHREAK]

First and foremost, thank you all for your help. I do appreciate it and I'm not just saying that because of the following: I'm about to piddle off the British Empire.

I was half right about the Phantom kit I have. It does contain decals and paint guide for a gray/gray aircraft from No. 43 and 111 Squadrons, however I was totally wrong on the version. It is kit #P17, "Phantom FG Mk.1 (Royal Air Force)", not as I mistakenly thought earlier, an FGR.2 kit. I forgot that the RAF got the FG.1s from the RN in the early 80s and since I knew the markings were for an RAF aircraft, I believed the kit to be that of an FGR.2

So I should amend my original question to the following: now that I know which kit I'm starting out with, are my two options with it a Royal Navy aircraft and a post-1979 RAF gray aircraft? And from what I've read of your responses thus far, it looks like this kit can only be built as a Phantom FG.1.

The reason for my not wanting to build the gray RAF aircraft is that I've already slated an F-4J kit to be finished as an F-4J(UK) and I would like to build this Phantom in a different operational color scheme. My first preference is the RAF gray/green scheme, but if that's not possible with this kit, then I have no problem building it as a RN Phantom (since it still would be finished in a scheme different from the pastel grays).

Again, I'm sorry for the error in my original question and thank you all for your help.

You can do a grey/green camo a/c of 43 or 111 squadron. You could also do a grey/green Royal Navy a/c of 767 squadron ...all straight from the box.

HTH

[Giorgio N]

The good news is that the Hasegawa FG.1 kit comes with the nosegear door for the FGR.2, as well as the neccessary nosegear strut. The bad news is that the FG.1 kit comes with slotted stabilators and the FGR.2 had solid, unslotted stabs. The options that I see at this point are that you can fill in the slotted leading edge of the stabilators, or you can try to find someone who would be willing to trade you their FGR.2 stabs for your FG.1 articles, or I believe that I saw someone in another thread here at Britmodeler make mention of aftermarket resin stabilators being available.

Just a question, talking about nosegear struts: were the RAF land based FG.1 retrofitted with the FGR.2 type or did they retain the original double oleos system ? Been wondering about it while looking at a couple of pictures of the 2 versions side by side, where the nose strut looks exactly the same... Ok, I'm sure it will sound like a very stupid question for the real Phantom experts here...

Giorgio

[silverkite211]

Just a question, talking about nosegear struts: were the RAF land based FG.1 retrofitted with the FGR.2 type or did they retain the original double oleos system ? Been wondering about it while looking at a couple of pictures of the 2 versions side by side, where the nose strut looks exactly the same... Ok, I'm sure it will sound like a very stupid question for the real Phantom experts here...

Giorgio

The nosegear strut remained the same double oleo unit.

And, in my opinion the only stupid question is the one that you don't ask.

[Bobski]

If you want to do a grey/green FGR.2, I'd be happy to send you a spare set of FGR.2 parts and decals from the Revell re-pop in exchange for your FG.1 parts (I'm looking to do an RN Phantom and am having trouble tracking one down). Send me a PM if you're interested.

[Giorgio N]

The nosegear strut remained the same double oleo unit.

And, in my opinion the only stupid question is the one that you don't ask.

Thanks, that clears the matter. As I've a couple of Phantoms planned (111 and 92) this is useful info !

And I like the one on the silly question !!!

Giorgio

[silverkite211]

And I like the one on the silly question !!!

Giorgio

A person has to learn somehow and if it isn't by asking questions...

Or, as I heard it put once, 'The beginning of knowledge is the statement "I do not know" '.

Glad I could help out and answer your question.

[Trigger]

The good news is that the Hasegawa FG.1 kit comes with the nosegear door for the FGR.2, as well as the neccessary nosegear strut. The bad news is that the FG.1 kit comes with slotted stabilators and the FGR.2 had solid, unslotted stabs. The options that I see at this point are that you can fill in the slotted leading edge of the stabilators, or you can try to find someone who would be willing to trade you their FGR.2 stabs for your FG.1 articles, or I believe that I saw someone in another thread here at Britmodeler make mention of aftermarket resin stabilators being available.

Thanks for that breakdown between the two kits.

You can do a grey/green camo a/c of 43 or 111 squadron. You could also do a grey/green Royal Navy a/c of 767 squadron ...all straight from the box.

No. 43 or 111 squadron, gotcha. A Gray/Green Royal Navy Phantom? I didn't know they had any that flew in those colors. Looks like I've got some more research to do.

If you want to do a grey/green FGR.2, I'd be happy to send you a spare set of FGR.2 parts and decals from the Revell re-pop in exchange for your FG.1 parts (I'm looking to do an RN Phantom and am having trouble tracking one down). Send me a PM if you're interested.

Thanks for the offer. I have some decals already (some are RAF, some are RN), but I don't know exactly what squadrons they're for since I'm not at home as I type this. Let me take stock of what I've got already, see what I can or cannot do with what I have and I'll get back to you.

[Tim]

There were some very early FAA FG1's which had grey/green camouflage certainly (seem to remember some had lovely big white codes on the fuselage too), so you could do one of those. Or as has been said, you can do 43 or 111 Sqn FG1's in grey/green camouflage too. Failing that, if you want to avoid the later grey scheme, you could try the all-black 111 Sqn machine, or Boscombe Down's raspberry ripple FG1 (which started-off in FAA grey but with a red tail) - but you'd need the modified Tacan nose (in the Hasegawa "special edition" kit) or the alternative ASI-probed nose which you could make yourself. Lots of options!

Edited January 25, 2008 by Tim

[dahut]

You can build your F-4J as an RAF F-4J(UK). The Royal Air Force was the only foreign user of the F-4J, all other Royal Air Force and Royal Navy Phantoms were Rolls-Royce Spey powered and the fuselage had to be widened and deepened to accommodate the larger engine, in addition to the auxiliary air intakes being moved to the upper sides of the fuselage, as you can see in the photo that's part of my signature. There was only one RAF Sqn. that operated the F-4J(UK), 74 Sqn.

Now theres a dandy bit of news! Does make things simple, eh? I knew about the Spey engines, but I was honestly clueless about it all, in general. Thanks for the tip off. 74 Sq. it is then.

[silverkite211]

Happily there are comparitively few differences to take note of with the F-4 Phantom II, nothing like the seemingly myriad little differences with Bf-109s for example. 74 Squadron is one of my favorite RAF squadrons, I built an F-4J(UK) many years ago, using the Monogram kit, as it happens, I need to build another, better one sometime. I didn't know as much about Phantoms then as now and I neglected to remove the arrowhead shaped reinforcing plate on the stabilators, US Navy Phantoms didn't have them. If I may be allowed a moment's thread drift...

This is one of my prize possessions, the five delivery flights were known as (code named, possibly?) 'Tiger Trails', they started at the NARF Facility in California where the planes had been brought out of storage and reworked, stopping overnight at Lambert Field in St. Louis, then on to Newfoundland, where the planes were painted (in colors that did NOT match the BSC specs) and from there on to England. I saw a photograph of this patch in a magazine article once, and this is the only one that I have ever seen in the flesh.

I was saddened when 74 Sqd became a Reserve squadron and saddened even more when it was disestablished.

[Tim]

...and if the loss of 74 wasn't sad enough, there's the disbandment of 56 Sqn to look forward to in a few weeks - how miserable is that?!

There were two schools of thought on the F-4J(UK) colours; one was that the colours sprayed in Ca. were just the wrong match. The other story was that it was the right shade, but sprayed on top of a yellow undercoat, hence the greenish hue. Personally, I've never quite bought the "undercoat story" as it would need a pretty thin coat of paint to be affected by the colour of the undercoat...

[dahut]

Ive managed to hunt up a bit of info on the F-4J(UK)/F.3. I've read the undercoat story as well. All very fascinating, really. Typically goofy moves by the government types.

[silverkite211]

...and if the loss of 74 wasn't sad enough, there's the disbandment of 56 Sqn to look forward to in a few weeks - how miserable is that?!

There were two schools of thought on the F-4J(UK) colours; one was that the colours sprayed in Ca. were just the wrong match. The other story was that it was the right shade, but sprayed on top of a yellow undercoat, hence the greenish hue. Personally, I've never quite bought the "undercoat story" as it would need a pretty thin coat of paint to be affected by the colour of the undercoat...

I agree. I understand that due to budgetary constraints that military units sometimes must be reduced in number, however when I think of James McCudden leading his 56 Sqn pilots in their SE-5s against Verner Voss, or 74 Sqn always being the first to receive the latest variant of Lightning, it saddens me to think that these fine squadrons are gone, perhaps forever.

I also agree with you about the paint irregularity, I think it was a matter of the paint simply not being mixed in the proper percentages, and due to time constraints they weren't able to spray a test square to see if it was fomulated correctly.