Red Arrows to leave Scampton?

[Nev]

Was reported on Look North at dinnertime, but it didn't seem to make any sense.

Supposedly the RAF wants to move them from Scampton becos there's only them there, and its a big base. And even then they're only there half the year. Claim is that they will be moved to Waddington.

But then RAF spokesman comes on, and says "blah-blah review, blah-blah value for money, blah-blah cost-effectiveness", but then comes the bizarre part "but the Reds practise 3 times a day over the airfield and they need their own dedicated airspace to do so".

So, to sum up: They need to move cos Scampton is a big empty base, but they need to move to a big empty base to practise on. Go figure

[Roland Pulfrew]

More info here

I love this bit from CAS:

What we're doing is looking at the most appropriate base for the Red Arrows. There are a number of options... and Waddington is one of them

Waddington?!? So the Reds will be based at Waddington and transit to a now closed airfield to do their practices. This just goes to show how strapped for cash the RAF is. Didn't they move the Reds from Marham because operational aircraft and the Reds paractices JUST DON'T MIX??? The most appropriate base for the Reds IS Scampton.

[J35 Draken]

They only recently resurfaced Scamptons runway! I wouldn't be surprised if they moved to Waddo though, rumours have been floating around for a while now and it's another thing to cut isn't it!

[GrahamEM]

Just seen the news on Look North, Waddo looks like the preferred choice, it's nearer Cranwell for passing out parades

[J35 Draken]

Didn't they move the Reds from Marham because operational aircraft and the Reds paractices JUST DON'T MIX??? The most appropriate base for the Reds IS Scampton.

Although Waddo is operational, it's not half as busy as the likes of Marham. The practice's wouldn't interfere with operational sorties from Waddo and it'd take them only minutes to clear out from Waddington to Scampton. They'd save money by getting rid of Scampton and wouldn't, I imagine, cause a lot more hassle for Waddington.

[entlim]

Money, money, money......................

[Mike]

Money, money, money......................

It's a rich man's world!

[Gary West]

Didn't they move the Reds from Marham because operational aircraft and the Reds paractices JUST DON'T MIX???

The Reds were never at Marham Ronald - Little Rissington - Kemble - Cranwell then Scampton. Been on the cards this

[Nev]

Hints at selling off the base on the news as well - Scampton is just north of Lincoln and would make an ideal housing estate for the commuters I guess....

It would be sad to see them leave Scampton, if only because its such an easy place to go spotting - there's a public footpath that runs right next to the perry track on the western side, as well as a lookout point just to the south on Lincoln Edge. I went walking round there last year and all I saw was 2 King Airs doing touch and go's all morning

I s'pose that could be another answer - move something, something small and possibly not very flyey to Scamton

but they will be staying in Lincolnshire, I would hope

So Scampton, Waddo or Cranwell then?

[perry]

I thought Scampton was earmarked to become a heavy transport and storage base... or has that plan been shelved too?

[Vickers McFunbus]

They only recently resurfaced Scamptons runway! I wouldn't be surprised if they moved to Waddo though, rumours have been floating around for a while now and it's another thing to cut isn't it!

I don't think they did - and I base that purely on the fact that most of the talk of it closing over the past year has been based around the multi-million cost of resurfacing the somewhat tired looking runway.

I'd say Leeming would be most sensible, co-locating with 100Sqn, as Cranwell it always full of circuit traffic, and maybe move D313 to Topcliffe...

Or they could move to Brize - every one else is, or permanently to Akrotiri...

Edited January 17, 2008 by Vickers McFunbus

[Tim]

Think everybody knows that news reports are garbage, and local news is even more garbage. There was a plan to move the RAFAT to Waddington teporarily but this was so that work could be done on Scampton's runway etc. As far as I know, the runway hasn't been completely resurfaced yet - I was under the impression it had only been repaired?

Anyway, there were certainly no plans to move the Reds anywhere as of last year. There was some discussion about maybe going to Leeming, to save a bit of money co-locating with 100 Sqn's Hawks, but I don't think any progress on this idea has been made as yet, because Leeming's future isn't settled yet. There's a distinct possibility that a couple of Typhoon squadrons may form there (possibly including 6 Sqn) but no concrete news as yet.

As for Scampton, again there seems to be no long-term news as yet, although most people assume that the base will inevitably be disposed of sooner or later. There have never been any plans to base any large transports there (other than a couple of Herks) and there are no plans to base any aircraft there now, other than the RAFAT Hawks. The comments on various forums about how "basing the team at Leeming is nonsense" should be ignored - the RAFAT people told me quite clearly that the idea was entirely practical, although they would probably continue to fly their practice sorties overhead Scampton even if they did move.

If there is some notion of moving the team to Waddington, the same would doubtless apply, in that they would just transit to Scampton to fly, but I don't think there would be any logic in doing this, as there's little room at Waddington as it is, whereas there's plenty of space at Scampton. If the team do continue to fly over Scampton, the MoD will have to keep the airfield even if they dispose of most of the domestic site (most of it has already been sold off in any case), and this seems to be the problem, as it would probably cost the MoD a small fortune to relinquish the airfield, and this seems to be why they've hung onto it for so long.

I'd be inclined to wait for some facts rather that listening to any rubbish on the news. Out of all the possibilities, Leeming looks like the most likely move if there is to be one, but bearing in mind that the RAFAT won't be operating their Hawks for more than a few years (and there dosen't seem to be much prospect of finding any new Hawks to replace the current ones), you'd think that the best policy would be to just stay where they are until the team gets wrapped-up once and for all. But then, logic has never been high on the MoD's list of achievements!

Edited January 17, 2008 by Tim

[andy]

Think everybody knows that news reports are garbage, and local news is even more garbage. There was a plan to move the RAFAT to Waddington teporarily but this was so that work could be done on Scampton's runway etc. As far as I know, the runway hasn't been completely resurfaced yet - I was under the impression it had only been repaired?

Anyway, there were certainly no plans to move the Reds anywhere as of last year. There was some discussion about maybe going to Leeming, to save a bit of money co-locating with 100 Sqn's Hawks, but I don't think any progress on this idea has been made as yet, because Leeming's future isn't settled yet. There's a distinct possibility that a couple of Typhoon squadrons may form there (possibly including 6 Sqn) but no concrete news as yet.

As for Scampton, again there seems to be no long-term news as yet, although most people assume that the base will inevitably be disposed of sooner or later. There have never been any plans to base any large transports there (other than a couple of Herks) and there are no plans to base any aircraft there now, other than the RAFAT Hawks. The comments on various forums about how "basing the team at Leeming is nonsense" should be ignored - the RAFAT people told me quite clearly that the idea was entirely practical, although they would probably continue to fly their practice sorties overhead Scampton even if they did move.

If there is some notion of moving the team to Waddington, the same would doubtless apply, in that they would just transit to Scampton to fly, but I don't think there would be any logic in doing this, as there's little room at Waddington as it is, whereas there's plenty of space at Scampton. If the team do continue to fly over Scampton, the MoD will have to keep the airfield even if they dispose of most of the domestic site (most of it has already been sold off in any case), and this seems to be the problem, as it would probably cost the MoD a small fortune to relinquish the airfield, and this seems to be why they've hung onto it for so long.

I'd be inclined to wait for some facts rather that listening to any rubbish on the news. Out of all the possibilities, Leeming looks like the most likely move if there is to be one, but bearing in mind that the RAFAT won't be operating their Hawks for more than a few years (and there dosen't seem to be much prospect of finding any new Hawks to replace the current ones), you'd think that the best policy would be to just stay where they are until the team gets wrapped-up once and for all. But then, logic has never been high on the MoD's list of achievements!

so the rumour of all the hawks plus the reds to be based at valley looks off then,would make more sense on cost grounds plus all that airspace

[Tim]

Don't know of there ever being any serious talk of moving the Hawks to Valley. It wouldn't be practical, as there isn't any suitable airfield nearby for the Reds to fly over. Mona is just up the road but it's already used pretty heavily by 4FTS.

Besides, it looks pretty certain that 1FTS will move there at some stage when Linton closes. Whether that will be before the Tucanos are replaced or not is open to question. Think that move should ensure that Valley will be completely maxed-out in terms of space and movements.

[Derek Bradshaw]

Hmmm, this old chest nut. Tim is probably closer to the actual truth as anyone. The ultimate fate of RAF Scampton has always been a topic for debate and speculation. RAFAT need clear airspace and a runway to practice over. In the past, they have used smaller airfields than Scampton to practice over, but it is the clear airspace above and around the airfield that is critical. The other critical thing for the reds is timing. Keeping to timings comes almost top of their priority list, and any form of delay is unacceptable. For this latter reason, they will not wish to be at an operating base that may cause such delays due to other operational aircraft commitments or exercises (one of the reasons that the RAFAT are traditionally part of the training wings).

The RAFAT team were originally based at RAF Little Rissington (where they formed), then moved to RAF Kemble. I moved with them from RAF Kemble to RAF Scampton. They have never been based at RAF Cranwell, they are just parented by that station for administrative purposes.

Cheers

Derek (Ex-RAFAT)

[GrahamEM]

Hints at selling off the base on the news as well - Scampton is just north of Lincoln and would make an ideal housing estate for the commuters I guess....

Everytime i go to Scunny Nev nr there, i see bloody badger baiters Grrrr f@;kin scumbags

[J35 Draken]

The RAFAT team were originally based at RAF Little Rissington (where they formed), then moved to RAF Kemble. I moved with them from RAF Kemble to RAF Scampton. They have never been based at RAF Cranwell, they are just parented by that station for administrative purposes.

Cheers

Derek (Ex-RAFAT)

The RAFAT moved in to Cranwell in 1995 and were back at Scampton by the end of 2000.

[Gary West]

They have never been based at RAF Cranwell, they are just parented by that station for administrative purposes.

Derek - were both right and wrong here by the looks of it. You're quite right, the RA moved from Kemble to Scampton but then to Cranwell and back to Scampton. Sorts that one out then!

[Derek Bradshaw]

Gary/Dean,

You are correct - I forgot about that period. As far as the team were generally concerned, they only ever saw the move to Cranwell as temporary - mainly because it was unsuitable for their needs, so welcomed the move back to Scampton - and their own servicing facilities.

Cheers

Derek

[Tim]

The Cranwell saga was a monumental waste of money. Basing the team there just complicated things, with personnel living all over the place, aircraft at Cranwell and the flying still at Scampton. I think the bean counters thought they were going to dispose of Scampton easily - the majority of the domestic site got sold off and became a rather grubby housing estate, and I think they thought the rest would follow, but it seems it wasn't that easy to get rid of the rest of the land. As with many airfields, it seems they're obliged to return the area to its former standard before selling it and it's just too expensive to do that. There was even a rumour that they might have even been obliged to restore the A15 to its original route straight through the runway, but when the road is already a pretty decent one, I doubt if the government would want all the disruption of moving the road back for no obvious reason. Then there was the problem with the Listing of various buildings like the Mess, and they evidently judged that it would be less expensive (and more practical) to simply move the team back there and shunt a few other units in to justify the base's existence.

Now they seem to have just done nothing for a long time. The plans to move units to Scampton came and went, some moved in, some didn't, half the domestic site is sold, the rest is still there, falling apart and looking like a ghost town, and so the saga continues. I think it must be certain that the base will ultimately be sold off as it must look like a financial liability to the folks down in Whitehall. They're evidently not inclined to build-up the base so it will have to go, but exactly how, and when, is anybody's guess. As I said earlier, my hunch is that they will try and drag things out until the Hawks reach the end of their lives (only a few years away) and then they have a politically safe means of simply disposing of the team as a whole. Nobody wants the stigma of being the guy/party who scrapped the Red Arrows, so it's much easier to simply say their aircraft are worn out and that there is no public money to replace them - sounds very worthy and easily the best way to get rid of them without sounding like they actually have done. Naturally, once they've gone, then they have a virtually abandoned station with no purpose, so they can dump it without too many questions being asked as to how much it costs to do it!

The only question really is whether the team will stay in situ until the Hawks wear out. When I asked them, there was a plan to temporarily base the Hawks at Waddington but still fly over Scampton and leave the HQ and admin there. I've heard nothing about this for ages though so I suspect the idea might have been dropped, especially if the runway is now judged to be in a resonable condition for the forseeable future. They also said that moving to Leeming wasn't a great idea but it was certainly practical, and all the rubbish being spewed-out on enthusiast sites was just that - there is no real issue with airspace, distracting motorists or anything else, as they would simply fly down to Scampton to rehearse.

Personally, based on what people have said, I think they're likely to go to Leeming, especially if the Typhoon squadrons form there as seems likely now. I would imagine that they'll just allow Scampton to be left in an under-utilised state, and when the team's Hawks finally wear out in a few years (as will 100 Squadrons in six years or so), they'll announce that there's no money to buy new Hawks, and that Scampton is entirely surplus to requirements, and that'll be that. Then there will be the saga of what happens to Scampton then - presumably the rest of the site will be sold for industrial use, but with Listed buildings in it, that should be interesting. As for the airfield, you'd imagine the runway and taxiways would be dug-up and the area used for agriculture again, but then there's HAA, and one wonders what they would do. If they are forced to finance their stay at an abandoned airfield I guess they would also have to find another home but heaven-knows where. Maybe Cranwell might be an option now that there ain't too many aircraft based there... or Barkston Heath... or even Cottesmore, considering how little activity there is at that base!

Poor ol' Nigger - he must be spinning in his grave.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Tim

[TEZ]

The Cranwell saga was a monumental waste of money. Basing the team there just complicated things, with personnel living all over the place, aircraft at Cranwell and the flying still at Scampton. I think the bean counters thought they were going to dispose of Scampton easily - the majority of the domestic site got sold off and became a rather grubby housing estate, and I think they thought the rest would follow, but it seems it wasn't that easy to get rid of the rest of the land. As with many airfields, it seems they're obliged to return the area to its former standard before selling it and it's just too expensive to do that. There was even a rumour that they might have even been obliged to restore the A15 to its original route straight through the runway, but when the road is already a pretty decent one, I doubt if the government would want all the disruption of moving the road back for no obvious reason. Then there was the problem with the Listing of various buildings like the Mess, and they evidently judged that it would be less expensive (and more practical) to simply move the team back there and shunt a few other units in to justify the base's existence.

Now they seem to have just done nothing for a long time. The plans to move units to Scampton came and went, some moved in, some didn't, half the domestic site is sold, the rest is still there, falling apart and looking like a ghost town, and so the saga continues. I think it must be certain that the base will ultimately be sold off as it must look like a financial liability to the folks down in Whitehall. They're evidently not inclined to build-up the base so it will have to go, but exactly how, and when, is anybody's guess. As I said earlier, my hunch is that they will try and drag things out until the Hawks reach the end of their lives (only a few years away) and then they have a politically safe means of simply disposing of the team as a whole. Nobody wants the stigma of being the guy/party who scrapped the Red Arrows, so it's much easier to simply say their aircraft are worn out and that there is no public money to replace them - sounds very worthy and easily the best way to get rid of them without sounding like they actually have done. Naturally, once they've gone, then they have a virtually abandoned station with no purpose, so they can dump it without too many questions being asked as to how much it costs to do it!

The only question really is whether the team will stay in situ until the Hawks wear out. When I asked them, there was a plan to temporarily base the Hawks at Waddington but still fly over Scampton and leave the HQ and admin there. I've heard nothing about this for ages though so I suspect the idea might have been dropped, especially if the runway is now judged to be in a resonable condition for the forseeable future. They also said that moving to Leeming wasn't a great idea but it was certainly practical, and all the rubbish being spewed-out on enthusiast sites was just that - there is no real issue with airspace, distracting motorists or anything else, as they would simply fly down to Scampton to rehearse.

Personally, based on what people have said, I think they're likely to go to Leeming, especially if the Typhoon squadrons form there as seems likely now. I would imagine that they'll just allow Scampton to be left in an under-utilised state, and when the team's Hawks finally wear out in a few years (as will 100 Squadrons in six years or so), they'll announce that there's no money to buy new Hawks, and that Scampton is entirely surplus to requirements, and that'll be that. Then there will be the saga of what happens to Scampton then - presumably the rest of the site will be sold for industrial use, but with Listed buildings in it, that should be interesting. As for the airfield, you'd imagine the runway and taxiways would be dug-up and the area used for agriculture again, but then there's HAA, and one wonders what they would do. If they are forced to finance their stay at an abandoned airfield I guess they would also have to find another home but heaven-knows where. Maybe Cranwell might be an option now that there ain't too many aircraft based there... or Barkston Heath... or even Cottesmore, considering how little activity there is at that base!

Poor ol' Nigger - he must be spinning in his grave.

Hi Tim,

Scampton is also the site of a Command and Reporting Centre (CRC) i.e amongst other things provides fighter control for F3 and Typhoon AD squadrons.

Andrew

[Vickers McFunbus]

However unsuitable Cranwell was, I can see them moving back once they (AFAIK the airfield side of Scampton is under Cranwell's jurisdiction) decide that continued operations of any service aircraft at Scampton is no longer viable - if the money for its continue operation isn't forthcoming then I don't see many other options - unless some space is created elsewhere - I doubt there's any at Waddo or Coningsby. Leeming may when 25 closes and all the F3 support vacates hangar space.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Vickers McFunbus

[Tim]

As you say, Leeming is the most practical option, especially if they ultimately get two squadrons of Typhoons. That would bring the airfield up to a pretty decent level of activity which presumably would justify keeping the base open for ops. Likewise, with 25 disbanding in a few weeks, there might well be some dark motive for shifting the Reds up there this year to maintain significant aerial activity in the area, thus avoiding all the usual political headaches of introducing noisy Typhoons to an otherwise almost silent area. Surely, even the MoD wouldn't be crazy to go back to Cranwell again after the last time. But then, this is the MoD we're talking about...

[Nev]

But Cranwell is so tiny....and so many a/c (piloted by stoodents!) in the circuit all the time.....

[Ian]

Think that move should ensure that Valley will be completely maxed-out in terms of space and movements.

I was at Valley a few weeks back, with the SAR Flight, the 'civil terminal' is already open and Highland Airways has been operating there for a few months now. There are plans - fairly advanced now - to bring more commercial aviation into Valley, which adds to Tims' argument that the 'circuit is full' adding the Reds into mix would make sense ONLY on the basis of engineering and maitenance, timing and safety would be lost in the crowded skies above western Anglesey !!!

Ian