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K5054


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I'll appologise first off because I've a couple of colour questions regarding K5054 and no doubt they've been asked many times. These relate to time period before first flight.

1) Cockpit interior is Eau de Nil and not interior grey/green. Correct?

2) External colour call out gives it as Zinc Chromate Green. Can't see this being correct as it's a US colour. Is it a case of mix a similar colour and let somebody prove it wrong?

Before anyone asks, it's for the CMR kit.

Cheers

Chris

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1/. Probably not; it's likely to be the same (Supermarine's own?) interior green as used in the S6B, which is what Humbrol's 90 used to be, before it was "got at." Apparently Revell are advocating a mix of 75% Himmelblau + 25% Bronzegrau (that came from a fellow non-German-speaking friend, so I haven't a clue if it's spelt correctly, neither do I know the paint numbers, but he reckons it's about one shade darker than 90.)

2/. Very doubtful, since I don't think ZCG was in general use in 1936; there was a green anodising in use, about then, which seems more likely. It certainly was a "Yucky green," as it was described to me, about 30 years ago, by an artist, who, it later transpired, was one Mitchell's relatives.

Edgar

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2/. Very doubtful, since I don't think ZCG was in general use in 1936; there was a green anodising in use, about then, which seems more likely. It certainly was a "Yucky green," as it was described to me, about 30 years ago, by an artist, who, it later transpired, was one Mitchell's relatives.

Edgar

Zinc Chromate was discovered by Vauquelin in 1809 and commercial production was begun by Scottish chemist James Murdoch in 1847. Ford began using it in their automotive production as a corrosion inhibitor from the 1920's. There are industrial references to it in 1924, 1928 and 1929 and it began to be used in the aviation industry from about 1936 with the development of light metals. There were/are different formulae and compounds including Pigment Yellow 36 - a bright greenish yellow, Pigment Green 16 and Pigment Yellow 36:1 also known as Basic Zinc Yellow and one of the components of RLM 02.

Edited by Nick Millman
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Far be it from me to contradict anyone - so I won't. When first reading up on the subject everyone seemed to think it a delicate shade of blue. In fact there is a full size replica (Ithink owned by the Spitfire Society) finished thus

http://images.uk.ask.com/fr?q=the+spitfire...253D21&qt=0

Years later, a theory was proposed that it was grey, quite what shade I don't know, although I remember Mike McEvoy in his Scale Aircraft Modelling days painting up a Pegasus 1/72 in the same shade of grey that Supermarine used for the floats on their seaplanes and that he had a special pot of Compucolour (yes it was that long ago) made up for the occasion.

So unless someone finds a piece of the prototype (unlikely as it crashed and was scrapped in 1939) or else there is a contemporary description of the colour, your guess is as good as anyone's.

trevor

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Trevor

The blue / grey painted phase is a separate, later, time in the aircraft's life from the suggested anodised or primed green phase of the aeroplane's earlier existence.

There is discussion of the aircraft in this earlier phase, and a picture of a model built following that theory, on page 2 of this thread:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...23722&st=10

So unless someone finds a piece of the prototype (unlikely as it crashed and was scrapped in 1939) or else there is a contemporary description of the colour, your guess is as good as anyone's.

Even that wouldn't help as by that time it was no longer in the perennially discussed blue / grey finish, but had been rebuilt closer to production standards and camouflaged.

Edited by Work In Progress
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Apparently Revell are advocating a mix of 75% Himmelblau + 25% Bronzegrau (that came from a fellow non-German-speaking friend, so I haven't a clue if it's spelt correctly, neither do I know the paint numbers, but he reckons it's about one shade darker than 90.)

Edgar

Revell Himmelblau is 59 in their matt paints, a light blue-green, but I can't see a "Bronzegrau". Might mean 165 Bronzegrün a dark olive green (RAL 6031)? The two together would probably be towards the conventional "cockpit grey-green" but I haven't tried it.

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Revell Himmelblau is 59 in their matt paints, a light blue-green, but I can't see a "Bronzegrau". Might mean 165 Bronzegrün a dark olive green (RAL 6031)? The two together would probably be towards the conventional "cockpit grey-green" but I haven't tried it.

I'm glad somebody else couldn't find it. Thought I was having a blonde moment.

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  • 2 weeks later...

(Proving that, if you have a library, it pays to read some of it, occasionally,) in the original F.7/30 specification, it states that "Aluminium and aluminium alloy parts are to be anodically treated." I've checked, and it is possible to dye the treatment, so green anodised finish, rather than green ZC, could be the more likely material.

Edgar

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(Proving that, if you have a library, it pays to read some of it, occasionally,) in the original F.7/30 specification, it states that "Aluminium and aluminium alloy parts are to be anodically treated." I've checked, and it is possible to dye the treatment, so green anodised finish, rather than green ZC, could be the more likely material.

Edgar

That would be an explanation of why in some of the early photos it looks to be natural metal finish (ie the various panels show up differently )

Model wise - so a clear green over aluminium .... ?? or green mixed in with aluminium to give a greenish tinge ...this could be fun to replicate :rolleyes:

regards Trevor .. :D

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  • 4 weeks later...
That would be an explanation of why in some of the early photos it looks to be natural metal finish (ie the various panels show up differently )

Model wise - so a clear green over aluminium .... ?? or green mixed in with aluminium to give a greenish tinge ...this could be fun to replicate :rolleyes:

regards Trevor .. :D

Not necessarily. I'm not sure where the "green" comes from but anodising, most likely at the time chromic acid anodising, can appear as anything from a dull grey to a translucent coloured film depending on which dye colour was added. As chromic acid anodising was the most difficult to add dye to it might be that the dark panels appeared just as a dull, darker grey.

With regard to the "zinc chromate primer" before its time issue, strontium chromate (a Chromium VI compound - SrCrO4, a strontium salt precipitated with neutral aqueous potassium chromate) was in use by 1936:-

"Strontium chromate was first used commercially (near the end of the nine-teenth century) as a colourant in artists' paints, under the name 'citron yellow'. It was replaced for this use by organic pigments in 1936, at which time it was also being used for corrosion resistance on aluminium and magnesium alloys." (my emphasis - from IARC Monographs Volume 49 Para 2.2(d) page 84)

Also known as Pigment Yellow 32 it has the characteristic of turning greenish due to partial conversion to chromium oxide. Here is one of its more recent outings.

f15926acce93.jpg

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. I'm not sure where the "green" comes from

It comes from an artist (who, I later discovered is a relative of Mitchell - possibly nephew,) who told me that he was planning to do a painting, and that it was "a yucky green colour." I assumed later that he probably got the information from Gordon Mitchell.

Edgar

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So does this mean nobody really knows ??? therefore the early prototype could be greyish,greenish or just natural aluminium ..........

made even more confusing by the fact that the jet on my Mac at work looks very grey and I did wonder what Nick was on about !!! but on my Mac at home it is a very nice greenish shade ,,,,,,such fun !!!!

Regards Trevor .... :D

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It comes from an artist (who, I later discovered is a relative of Mitchell - possibly nephew,) who told me that he was planning to do a painting, and that it was "a yucky green colour." I assumed later that he probably got the information from Gordon Mitchell.

Edgar

Thanks for that. It could mean either a coloured anodised finish or an anti-corrosive primer. Green is not the usual colour from anodising without dye but there are at least five methods to introduce colour in the anodising process and one associated with sealing parts anodised in sulphuric acid produces a yellowish-green appearance. Evidence of anodising is not evidence that the parts were not also painted as chromic acid anodising, for example, was often done as a deliberate pre-treatment to painting.

The photos do suggest that an anodised finish is a better candidate for the appearance than a primed finish. Very difficult to replicate on a model though as the degree of translucency is hard to gauge from the photos and in any case the colour might be inconsistent as it reacted differently to the varying metallurgy of the panels. The Craig Dunning profile seems a reasonable representation of the possible appearance. The model in the linked thread is more reminiscent of modern anodising techniques and a bit on the garish side.

Interesting that the Japanese were experimenting with oxalic acid anodising of aircraft aluminium around the same time.

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The Craig Dunning profile seems a reasonable representation of the possible appearance. The model in the linked thread is more reminiscent of modern anodising techniques and a bit on the garish side.

Nick,

I agree that the model is not a very good representation of the possible finish ...I linked it more to illustrate that green tint had been picked up on by others ...

re.. the Craig Dunning profile ...I think,given all the evidence so far that that finish may well be the most realistic ...also on the same page the type 224 is showing a variety of hues on the panels ..earlier version of the finish ???

As always an interesting discussion ... :)

Regards Trevor .. :D

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It's funny, but one area, never picked up on, is the rudder; every profile paints it as silver, presumably because that's how fabric-covered areas always looked, but photographs show it to be in a similarly dark shade to the fuselage panels. Photographs taken from each side show the same darkness, so shadow can be discounted, so we're left with the intriguing possibility that it was metal-covered, which is not totally ridiculous, since the original specification did call for K5054 to be made, entirely, in metal.

Edgar :chair::tomato::door:

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It's funny, but one area, never picked up on, is the rudder; every profile paints it as silver, presumably because that's how fabric-covered areas always looked, but photographs show it to be in a similarly dark shade to the fuselage panels. Photographs taken from each side show the same darkness, so shadow can be discounted, so we're left with the intriguing possibility that it was metal-covered, which is not totally ridiculous, since the original specification did call for K5054 to be made, entirely, in metal.

Edgar :chair::tomato::door:

Could it have been doped in a colour other than silver?

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Could it have been doped in a colour other than silver?

Unlikely, since the prescribed system was 5 coats of red, shrinking, dope, followed by two coats of silver anti-u/v, to stop the likelihood of sun-induced rot into the fabric. If it had been as dark as the under-chin oil tank, I could go with it having been red, but it doesn't look that way.

During the war, the silver was dispensed with, probably because the "life" of silver-doped fabric was only 5 years, and not many aircraft lasted that long. For the same rot reasons, no fabric was clear-doped, after WWI, so that can be discounted, and Irish linen is a slightly creamy off-white, so clear dope wouldn't darken it very much.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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This is another of those subjects that refuses to go away. The finish on K5054 was debated in model magazines throughout the 1970s and one respected correspondant came up with a period Cellon colour card he acquired as a child from a family source with the colour "Sky Grey" (presumably BS381C number 630) marked as the colour used on this aircraft. Since then many published sources have quoted various vague colours including a colour used by the Derby coachpainters that painted Rolls Royce Cars, the book "Spitfire Story" mentions this and describes the colour used as a very smooth light blue-grey. If this company still exists there may be a record of the colour used by them at the time if someone wants to go to the trouble of researching this but it won't happen on the internet-it will have to be done the old-fashioned way with (possibly lots of) postage stamps, shoe leather and eventually if you are lucky, access to an archive.

The aircraft appears to be natural metal finish in all early photographs displaying various shades of a dull metallic finish and has been described as such for many years but if it were constructed from anodised panels that is exactly how they would appear on a monochrome photograph and if the rivets were supplied to match the panels in the same anodic finish (quite likely if this was the specified metal finish used) then the rivet heads would appear as the panels did and would not give a clue to this either. Without proven Supermarine archival evidence of the actual finish used we will probably never really know what the early finish actually was but time may reveal what colour was used to paint the aircraft in later. Until then we can only really go with published sources in the absence of factory evidence. Until the real story surfaces (if it ever does) a great many different models of this famous but undocumented aircraft will be made in the coming years (and have been made to date) and no-one will be able to really say that any of them will be wrong.

Edited by lancfan
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a colour used by the Derby coachpainters that painted Rolls Royce Cars, the book "Spitfire Story" mentions this and describes the colour used as a very smooth light blue-grey. If this company still exists there may be a record of the colour used by them at the time if someone wants to go to the trouble of researching this but it won't happen on the internet-it will have to be done the old-fashioned way with (possibly lots of) postage stamps, shoe leather and eventually if you are lucky, access to an archive.

Already done, about 8 years ago; I found the name of the company, who supplied Rolls-Royce's paint, travelled to the midlands part of the National Archives, and looked through their entire records, from 1930. Result: nothing, since they simply wrote down the customer's name, and how many gallons of paint they'd supplied to them. Unfortunately, "blue," "black," "red," etc., don't help much. I did find that R-R's engine black was semi-matt, though.

One theory, advanced by a R-R employee, was that, instead of looking for coach paint, we should look for R-R's in-house colour, a blue, which had been matched to the blue of the mediterranean sky, and was used on all of their company vehicles. As he said, in the 1930s, R-R didn't paint any bodies, themselves, they were painted by the (many and varied) coachbuilders. As he pointed out, R-R would be more likely to have their own colour readily available, in Spitfire quantities, than a car colour. As I understand it (from John Adams,) there's a R-R building, in Nottingham, still with its (original?) blue on the facade. Anyone fancy nicking a sample?

Edgar

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Edgar,

I did actually mean the records of the automotive coachpainters concerned and not Rolls Royce themselves. The painters may have kept a record of the colour on the invoice for the job as part of their standard working practices, after all cars did crash then as they do now and they would need to have this information on record when they needed to order further stocks for the repair of road accident damage for their customers. I would suggest that the Rolls Royce Owners Club concerned with pre-war cars would be the first stop to find out who these painters were (there may be more than one coachworks around in 1936 who may possibly have done this job) and where the particular records are now.

David.

Edited by lancfan
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I would suggest that the Rolls Royce Owners Club concerned with pre-war cars would be the first stop to find out who these painters were (there may be more than one coachworks around in 1936 who may possibly have done this job) and where the particular records are now.

Tried them, and never had the courtesy of a reply.

Edgar

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Maybe they think themselves above the quest to discover historical fact, or possibly you have to join their club before asking a question (checked their website- this is a very expensive car club to join) perhaps Gaydon could help or even supply the info we all need for this?.

David.

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  • 1 year later...

Try the Rolls Royce Enthusiasts' Club. They are the original and best. I have attended joint meetings between them and the Austin Seven club I was in and the R-R guys were always very pleasant. Probably more so than the Austin 7 people are these days!

Martin

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