Difference between Tempest mkV and TT5

[Caerdydd]

Hello

I have buy the Eduard's Tempest and I would represented a Tempest TT5. What the modification for this version?

Thank you!

Edited September 23, 2011 by Caerdydd

[Caerdydd]

Up!

[Simon]

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.hawkertempest.se/TargetTugs.htm

There are some detail photos of the TT.5 at Hendon here:

http://www.hawkertempest.se/album/nv778/index_13.html

The 4+ book has drawings of the TT.5:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/4PLUS12

Regards

Simon

[Troy Smith]

Up!

google is your friend..... the place to plough through for info on this is the Tempest site.

http://www.hawkertempest.se/

The site has the Hendon Tempetst in TT markings.

the TT.5 had a winch and IIRC tailplane wire, and no cannons. Or the drouges were trailed from modified drop tanks. Are the parts not in the kit? At leasst one boxing had TT markings I think.

Have a good look through the site, as you may well find your answer there.

for some hints on the Eduard kit, check this thread.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...mp;#entry852158

HTH

T

[baldeagle]

I was stationed on Royal Air Force A.P.S. Sylt from 1956 to 1958,and was lucky enough to be able to study NV723,"K" on the dump,prior to it being burned in a fire -fighting display during an air show.The aircraft was not fitted with a winch,but had a truncated conical device angled down under the fuselage level with the wing trailing edge.The cable for the flag was attached to this,the cable then passed through a metal ring on a short post which projected from the lower fuselage forward of the tail wheel.Anti-fouling cables would have been fitted forward of the tailplane.I took note of all of the stencil and colour scheme detail and have passed the information to the authors of some of the published reference works.As far as I am aware,the powered winch was not used by Target Towing Flight on Sylt.The Meteor TT8s used the same method to tow the target flags and used to take off with the flag cable laid out behind them and the flag flat on the runway.

When the Tempest was burned at the air show it had just been "Attacked" by eight Mosquito TT35s from Royal Air Force Schleswig.Their Mosquito TT3 gave a solo display that would never be allowed these days.Ken Goodwin,the Command solo aerobatic expert,gave a display in the Hunter that I still remember.

If I can find the copy that I kept of the 3-view drawing,that I made of NV723,I will pass on the details,

Bill Anderson.

[Wez]

AFAIK, I think the winch was fitted to the prototype but not used operationally.

I don't know whether the panels with the bulges over the cannon bay were replaced or retained?

Once again, a Tempest question that needs Chris Thomas to give us an answer on!

Wez

[Chris Thomas]

AFAIK, I think the winch was fitted to the prototype but not used operationally.

I don't know whether the panels with the bulges over the cannon bay were replaced or retained?

Quite right Wez, the winch which figures in photos of SN329, often captioned as the prototype TT.5, was in fact a trial of the winch on a Tempest. It never saw service use on the Tempest and does not figure on any other Tempest photos I know.

The panels with bulges over the cannons were retained.

Incidentally, missing from the Eduard kit, and the restored example at Cosford, is the towing hook which was fitted beneath the fuselage, approximately in line with the wing trailing edge. Because of its position it is difficult to see in photos and when it does appear it is invariably little more than a silhouette. If anyone can locate a plan or close-up photo it would be very useful. Edgar, where are you!

Chris

[Edgar]

Edgar, where are you!

Back home, sorting things out after another session at Kew, including a lot of Tempest stuff (you're gonna be swamped, matey.) There are T.T.5 files, in Kew, and I have them earmarked for a future visit (which is sod-all help, for this one, I know, sorry.)

Edgar

[Chris Thomas]

Back home, sorting things out after another session at Kew, including a lot of Tempest stuff (you're gonna be swamped, matey.) There are T.T.5 files, in Kew, and I have them earmarked for a future visit (which is sod-all help, for this one, I know, sorry.)

Edgar

Aaahhh .... what would you do without friends ...

Chris

[baldeagle]

Hello Chris,

Back in 1986,while you were preparing your excellent book on the Typhoon and Tempest,you will remember that I lent you some very poor photographs of NV723 on Sylt,plus my rather amateurish 3-view drawings of the aircraft.If you have retained copies of the photographs and the drawings,please check the port three quarter rear view with a magnifier.You can just see the towing gear under the fuselage,commencing just forward of the flap hinge line and projecting several inches aft of the trailing edge line.My poor attempts at documenting this detail seems to be the only easily accessed information on this fit,but it was taken from the actual aircraft,though I wish that I had used a tape measure and had a better camera at the time.Unfortunately,the aircraft met its end before I could study it further.If Edgar doesn't allow himself to be sidetracked by any Spitfire information,he may turn something up at Kew!

Bill Anderson.

[baldeagle]

Hello again Chris,

I have just checked the rough sketches(Pencil on a NAAFI writing pad!) that I made back in 1956.The cannon bulges were present above the wings of NV723,

Bill.

[Edgar]

.If Edgar doesn't allow himself to be sidetracked by any Spitfire information,he may turn something up at Kew!

It's the Tempest which sidetracks me away from the Spitfire; there's a photo of the "thing," under the Tempest fuselage, in "The Long Drag," but it doesn't really move us any further forward, since it's too indistinct.

Edgar

[baldeagle]

It's the Tempest which sidetracks me away from the Spitfire; there's a photo of the "thing," under the Tempest fuselage, in "The Long Drag," but it doesn't really move us any further forward, since it's too indistinct.

Edgar

Hello Edgar,

I still have the sketches that I made on Sylt.The towing gear was mounted on a cuboid base on the lower fuselage centre line,the leading edge of which was slightly ahead of the flap hinge line.This base-block was about 6 inches deep and nearly a perfect square in plan.A circular rod or tube projected out of the rear of this at about a five degree downward angle.This was about four or five inches long.On the end of this was mounted the towing gear,which was a truncated conical shape,about six inches diameter at the front end,tapering to about one and a half inches at the rear,where the cable would be attached.I presume that there was an aperture in the rear end.At the time that I made the sketches,I showed a sort of helical spiral pattern on the surface of the cone,but can't remember why.The rear end of the towing attachment projected several inches behind the trailing edge of the wing root.I hope that this information might assist in interpretation of the photographs that you have discovered.

I hope to see you at Yeovilton,

Bill.

[Troy Smith]

Hello Edgar,

I still have the sketches that I made on Sylt.The towing gear was mounted on a cuboid base on the lower fuselage centre line,the leading edge of which was slightly ahead of the flap hinge line.This base-block was about 6 inches deep and nearly a perfect square in plan.A circular rod or tube projected out of the rear of this at about a five degree downward angle.This was about four or five inches long.On the end of this was mounted the towing gear,which was a truncated conical shape,about six inches diameter at the front end,tapering to about one and a half inches at the rear,where the cable would be attached.I presume that there was an aperture in the rear end.At the time that I made the sketches,I showed a sort of helical spiral pattern on the surface of the cone,but can't remember why.The rear end of the towing attachment projected several inches behind the trailing edge of the wing root.I hope that this information might assist in interpretation of the photographs that you have discovered.

I hope to see you at Yeovilton,

Bill.

HI Bill

This is fascinating firsthand information. Is it possible to scan your sketches and upload them?

If not may I suggest you photocopy them and send them onto either or both Edgar and Chris Thomas, who would both be interested and can scan and upload.

Even if you may think your sketches are 'crude' they could help in interpreting photos.

Thanks for posting, great contribution.

T

Edited September 26, 2011 by Troy Smith

[Chris Thomas]

Hello Chris,

Back in 1986,while you were preparing your excellent book on the Typhoon and Tempest,you will remember that I lent you some very poor photographs of NV723 on Sylt,plus my rather amateurish 3-view drawings of the aircraft.If you have retained copies of the photographs and the drawings,please check the port three quarter rear view with a magnifier.You can just see the towing gear under the fuselage,commencing just forward of the flap hinge line and projecting several inches aft of the trailing edge line.My poor attempts at documenting this detail seems to be the only easily accessed information on this fit,but it was taken from the actual aircraft,though I wish that I had used a tape measure and had a better camera at the time.Unfortunately,the aircraft met its end before I could study it further.If Edgar doesn't allow himself to be sidetracked by any Spitfire information,he may turn something up at Kew!

Bill Anderson.

Hello Bill

Good to be in touch after quarter of a century! Yes indeed, I did keep copies of your photos and I can see the 'device'. Unfortunately, although I remember your drawings I appear not to have photo'd them. Perhaps I photostated them but they haven't come to light yet. It would be good to see them if you can manage it, as they are the best bet at the moment.

kind regards

Chris

[baldeagle]

Hello Bill

Good to be in touch after quarter of a century! Yes indeed, I did keep copies of your photos and I can see the 'device'. Unfortunately, although I remember your drawings I appear not to have photo'd them. Perhaps I photostated them but they haven't come to light yet. It would be good to see them if you can manage it, as they are the best bet at the moment.

kind regards

Chris

Hello Again Chris,

Nice to speak again.I have scanned my drawing,but I am new to this site and haven't worked out how to make an attachment yet! In any case,I may need to enhance the drawings somewhat,as the scan is a bit pale.I also have the rough pencil sketch somewhere,which you may not have seen.When I find it,I will scan that also,

Regards,

Bill.

[Troy Smith]

I have scanned my drawing,but I am new to this site and haven't worked out how to make an attachment yet! In any case,I may need to enhance the drawings somewhat,as the scan is a bit pale.I also have the rough pencil sketch somewhere,which you may not have seen.When I find it,I will scan that also,

HI Bill

there is a 'how to' guide on the site, the one you want is this how to post images

HTH

T

[StephenMG]

At the time that I made the sketches,I showed a sort of helical spiral pattern on the surface of the cone,but can't remember why.

It was a conical spring (hence the "spiral pattern on the surface of the cone") which served to absorb and cushion some of the lateral and longitudinal forces imparted to the airframe by the banner. One end of the spring attached to the mounting post on the belly of the aircraft, the other end had the attachment for the banner itself.

Mark

[baldeagle]

It was a conical spring (hence the "spiral pattern on the surface of the cone") which served to absorb and cushion some of the lateral and longitudinal forces imparted to the airframe by the banner. One end of the spring attached to the mounting post on the belly of the aircraft, the other end had the attachment for the banner itself.

Mark

Hello Mark,

Thanks for that information regarding the spring.I didn't like to suggest that as a possibility,but it makes sense.I think that we discussed that possibility back in 1956,but it was a long time ago.You have added more information for other would-be TT5 modellers,so between us,we may unravel the mystery.Somebody out there may have close-up photographs,

Bill.

[StephenMG]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for that information regarding the spring.I didn't like to suggest that as a possibility,but it makes sense.I think that we discussed that possibility back in 1956,but it was a long time ago.You have added more information for other would-be TT5 modellers,so between us,we may unravel the mystery.Somebody out there may have close-up photographs,

Bill.

It's an interesting topic this because target tugs tend to get forgotten about (not 'sexy' enough I suppose!) and so details are hard to come by. I've recently finished some 4-view artwork of a TT.5 (amongst other marks) for a forthcoming Tempest book and had trouble determining details then. Consequently my drawing captures the overall look of the banner attachment but not much detail. I based it mostly on one photo which shows the thing fairly well but, again, not much of the detail. I'll see if I can find it again and post a link.

I'd be very interested to see your drawings as well if it's not too much trouble?

Mark

Edit: Found it, have a look at this photo which shows the spring fairly well but no other detail sadly. Ignore the comments about the "skirts" though - they are clearly the lowered flaps!

Edited September 27, 2011 by StephenMG

[baldeagle]

It's an interesting topic this because target tugs tend to get forgotten about (not 'sexy' enough I suppose!) and so details are hard to come by. I've recently finished some 4-view artwork of a TT.5 (amongst other marks) for a forthcoming Tempest book and had trouble determining details then. Consequently my drawing captures the overall look of the banner attachment but not much detail. I based it mostly on one photo which shows the thing fairly well but, again, not much of the detail. I'll see if I can find it again and post a link.

I'd be very interested to see your drawings as well if it's not too much trouble?

Mark

Edit: Found it, have a look at this photo which shows the spring fairly well but no other detail sadly. Ignore the comments about the "skirts" though - they are clearly the lowered flaps!

[baldeagle]

It's an interesting topic this because target tugs tend to get forgotten about (not 'sexy' enough I suppose!) and so details are hard to come by. I've recently finished some 4-view artwork of a TT.5 (amongst other marks) for a forthcoming Tempest book and had trouble determining details then. Consequently my drawing captures the overall look of the banner attachment but not much detail. I based it mostly on one photo which shows the thing fairly well but, again, not much of the detail. I'll see if I can find it again and post a link.

I'd be very interested to see your drawings as well if it's not too much trouble?

Mark

Edit: Found it, have a look at this photo which shows the spring fairly well but no other detail sadly. Ignore the comments about the "skirts" though - they are clearly the lowered flaps!

Hello Again Mark,

I've looked at your photo reference,but,hopefully can add more than it shows when I master the process of sending the drawings.Watch this space,

Bill.

[baldeagle]

Hello Again Mark,

I've looked at your photo reference,but,hopefully can add more than it shows when I master the process of sending the drawings.Watch this space,

Bill.

Here we are.rough sketches,drawing and photos.

Do your worst,-URL is available to a download site,if required,which should give tidier results.I haven't given this at present,in case it infringes site protocol,

Bill

[StephenMG]

Wonderful stuff baldeagle! A couple of comments which might help,

1. The panel at 8 normally says "CHOP HERE FOR EMERGENCY RESCUE" which accounts for some of the illegible lettering you mention. Not sure about the top line though.

2. Both panels in 12 should read "AILERON GEAR"

3. The rear towing gear in 13 acts a support and guide for the guard cable around the tailplane, fin and rear fuselage. The towing cable does not pass through it as I think you mentioned previously.

This is a reduced version of one of my book illustrations (albeit of a Pembrey-based aircraft) which might be of interest.

Mark

Edited September 27, 2011 by StephenMG

[baldeagle]

Hello Mark,

T hanks for the comments regarding the Tempest details,also for filling in the blanks regarding the stencil details.I've long wondered what the words could be! I must apologise for the messy way that the information presented on the site.For some reason,the size of the drawings and key went over the top.The information is all there,however and I hope that you will find it useful.Your Tempest drawing is new to me and is the first that I have seen to nearly get the towing shackle right.As you have undoubtedly seen from my sketches,the front end was slightly different on NV723. It's possible,but unlikely,that more than one design existed,of course.In what book was your Pembrey "Tempest" drawing published?-Is it still in print, so that I can try to find a copy?

It's sad to look at those pictures of me in the aircraft.I was only eighteen and still had a good head of hair!

Regards,

Bill