"Sky, Type S" - what's the deal

[John]

I agree with almost all of Graham's points. I suspect that the modeller's fascination with things a bit out of the ordinary is running amok here. I have Paul Lucas' monographs and I think he makes interesting comments but then extrapolates further than the evidence will bear - apart from anything else I just can't see large stocks of BS381 Eau-de-Nil or Sky Blue to the correct DTD spec lying in Fighter Command stores up and down the country. Why should it, when there wasn't any specified use for it (or at least none I'm aware of).

I wouldn't even be surprised if all the variations on offer are the result of poor mixing or patchy applications of Sky. Take a look in an unstirred pot of Humbrol 90 and one of the constituents is a light blue! I wonder what a thin coat of Sky over an existing Night or Aluminium finish would look like from a distance?

Having said that it doesn't mean there were no variations from the standard, for example we know there was a light blue to the correct spec available in the shape of what has come to be called AM Sky Blue, or a variety of greys.

John

[Edgar]

I have a shade card, dated 1971, for 210 Sky matt finish (priced at 2s[10p] those were the days!) It was supplied by the British Standards Institution, and, on the back, it says that its approximate Munsell reference is 5GY 7/2, that it's correlated to colour 5-059, in B.S.2660, and that it also corresponds to that formerly known as colour 9A of H.M.G. Aircraft series. As far as I know, the "H.M.G. Aircraft series" refers to the wartime range of colours, so, from that, I rather think that it can be taken that the wartime and post-war colours were the same. In the 1958 edition of the B.S. 381C: 1948, 210 has been deleted, but Eau-de-Nil is 216, so they're not the same colour.

Edgar

P.S. colours, in the 2-- range, are greens.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Edgar

[John]

I don't think colour 210 would be in the 1958 edition of the BS381C Edgar, I'm fairly sure the Aircraft Finishes weren't incorporated until the 1964 revision. Eau-de-Nil has been in BS381 since the beginning.

John

[Edgar]

Um, that's what I said; in the 1958 Fifth impression of the 1948 B.S.381C, 210 isn't there, but 104 Azure Blue, 108 Aircraft Blue, 283 Aircraft Grey Green, 633 R.A.F. Blue-Grey, 693 Aircraft Grey still(?) are. There's an interesting Amendment No.2, regarding 298 Olive Drab, which says that the addition is to correspond with colour No.15 of B.S.987C "Camouflage Colours." 499 Service Brown was colour No.2, in the same series. Anyone ever seen B.S.987C? I certainly haven't.

Edgar

[John]

Apologies if I misunderstood. When you said 210 had been deleted from the 1958 imprint, I thought you meant it had been there in previous editions and dropped.

RAF Blue-Grey was incorporated into BS381 as colour number 33 at least as long ago as 1933 in an amendment to the 1930 standard. As far as I know colour 4 Azure (I don't know when its name changed to Azure Blue, but it's still in the standard as 104) has not had any application to military aircraft, but I don't know when either 283 or 693 were incorporated.

I believe BS987C referred to tank and vehicle camouflage, but I haven't seen a copy either.

John

[Test Graham]

Note that Azure (1930) is a darker colour than wartime Azure Blue. Perhaps this is the colour that Humbrol chose for their incorrect Azure Blue (an alternative is Mediterranean Light Blue).

[dahut]

Wow, I couldnt follow all that! But thanks for all your input.

[John]

There's more about BS987 here:

http://matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_ww2uk.htm

and in a series of artricles by Mike Starmer and Mike Stone on the MAFVA website, but I can't access that at the moment.

Note that Azure (1930) is a darker colour than wartime Azure Blue. Perhaps this is the colour that Humbrol chose for their incorrect Azure Blue (an alternative is Mediterranean Light Blue).

At the risk of going completely off topic, I have wondered if the Med Blues could have been existing BS381 shades renamed. After all Middle Stone was drawn straight from the standard.

John

[The original Kit Builder]

Without getting too drawn into a speculative exchange, there were huge stocks of Eau De Nil in MU's and units during the BoB.

It was the standard colour used for the interior of all airfield support vehicles from the early thirties on and was still in use until the early eighties, such were the existing stocks. All RAF ambulances, bowsers, crew busses, cranes and lorry cabs were finished in it, as were many NAAFI vans. As has been said, there is also some evidence that some fighters and day bombers built from the mid to late thirties suffered from this shade.

[Erwin]

Here's some brushouts of various Skys I did earlier this year - note the variations!

John

I wouldn't put that on my models. It's far to green.

Humbrol has a matt enamel "duck eggblue". That's the one for me.

[John]

Without getting too drawn into a speculative exchange, there were huge stocks of Eau De Nil in MU's and units during the BoB.

It was the standard colour used for the interior of all airfield support vehicles from the early thirties on and was still in use until the early eighties, such were the existing stocks. All RAF ambulances, bowsers, crew busses, cranes and lorry cabs were finished in it, as were many NAAFI vans. As has been said, there is also some evidence that some fighters and day bombers built from the mid to late thirties suffered from this shade.

That's an interesting piece of information and may indeed be the missing link in this discussion, thanks.

John

[Osher]

I've found it interesting the Sky debate, because, looking at photographs, models, and pictures, one sees such huge variation. There seem to be 2 distinct groupings of colours. Some are almost a cream; others a very pale green. I have no idea which is right. Some are drab, some are bright. Again, I don't know which is right. I tend to use the creamier ones for early aircraft, and the pale green ones for the later ones. I do try to be right, but, ah well... Of course, it could be down too, to paint fade?

Still, it reminds me of the story I read last year about Sea Furies for Canada. The Canadian ordered some from Hawkers, with Sky undersides. When they arrived they complained that they were the wrong colour, underneath. Hawkers said they were as ordered. The next batch was sent, and, once again, the Canadians complained of the wrong colour, and again Hawkers said it was right. Finally, with the 3rd batch, the Canadians sent someone over, with a sample chip. Only then was it discovered that the Canadian 'Sky' was a grey colour, completely different from RAF Sky Hence, some early Canadian Sea Furies went around with different coloured undersides.

[Julien]

Here's some brushouts of various Skys I did earlier this year - note the variations!

John

Wow, some variation there.

Here is another one for you, this is xtracolor enamal brushed straight on from the tin;

Julien

[blimp]

- just to throw my hat into the ring , the age of paint can determine it's hue . fresh , pale coloured paint is usually lighter , and vice versa with darker tones . you could probably span the samples listed above by comparing a new coat against an old one even from the same tin . ( try it ! )

[JosephLalor]

Um, that's what I said; in the 1958 Fifth impression of the 1948 B.S.381C, 210 isn't there, but 104 Azure Blue, 108 Aircraft Blue, 283 Aircraft Grey Green, 633 R.A.F. Blue-Grey, 693 Aircraft Grey still(?) are. There's an interesting Amendment No.2, regarding 298 Olive Drab, which says that the addition is to correspond with colour No.15 of B.S.987C "Camouflage Colours." 499 Service Brown was colour No.2, in the same series. Anyone ever seen B.S.987C? I certainly haven't.

Edgar

Interesting... Sounds as though I could use my Xtracolor RN Olive Drab (I think it's supposed to be 298) on my Comet tank.

Joseph

[Test Graham]

I'm very interested in the comment that Eau-de-Nil was widely used on vehicle interiors prewar, as this seems to have escaped the notice of researchers before, which quote silver (Aluminium) or the external colour. Can I suggest that you get in touch with Mike Starmer with this information? Via the MAFVA website http://www.mafva.net/ I certainly recall it as a widely-used colour in the 1950s for interior decoration and in general use.

I'm less impressed with the idea that non-DTD-standard paint was used on aircraft. Pigment size would be larger (although that may not have been so important compared with pre-war paints) and the adhesion doubtful. Plus you have the problem of different kinds of paint required for metal and for fabric.

As for the provision of non-standard Sky from the paint manufacturers: I don't see them sending out available stocks with a Sky label, as if in some "good enough for government work" attitude which (to me) doesn't really fit with period mentalities. The problem about shortage of stocks has been raised, but we are only talking about a few hundred gallons, which is fairly small beer.

The wartime Army (and RAF vehicle) camouflage colours are available on the MAFVA website, and most are available in enamels from White Ensign Models. The SCC15 Olive Drab, described as greener than US Army Olive Drab, is one that draws some criticism from Mike Starmer, but I have recently seen him recommend it! I don't know the Xtracolour version, but it seems reasonable to use it - it would be interesting to compare it to Mike Starmer's colour chips.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Graham Boak

[John]

While it's interesting to have information about stocks of Eau-de-Nil paint, I'm still in agreement with Graham that it would also have to be to the correct specification before it would be let anywhere near an RAF aircraft. I would still be finishing a model from this era in Sky unless I had definitive evidence that it wasn't.

John

[Rob M.]

So to recap,

What colour (color?) is Olive Drab???

"Runs"

Rob M.

[PhoenixII]

Rob M.

So to recap,

What colour (color?) is Olive Drab???

First tin you get to!

Paul

[Mike Starmer]

Well for what it worth on this interesting debate. Please be aware that when referring to Fredrikkson or Klaus lists that these people did not actually compare the real colour with the FS/BS/ RAL that they say it matches. They simply took secondary material from as wide as possible range of sources and assembled it into readable lists with the inevitable assumptions. The other problem lies with FS shades. Some of the equivalents of these can be given against no less than three originals. First the 1939-1943 USN/USMC range, then USAAC Bulletin 41 range then the JAC ANA range which attempted to assemble a range of colours for all Allied forces by combining the MAP and the three US ranges into one document. This produced some compromise colours.

My eyeball reference to the RAF facsimile colour in British Aviation Colours, BS 381:C 1964 and FS34424 in the 'Sky' debate. The first is the WW 2 colour based on samples at Hendon; The second is it's replacement colour and somewhat stronger and slightly darker whilst the FS is far too dark grey and green for any shade of Sky I have ever seen.

I do have a copy of BS 987C: Camouflage Colours. War Emergency 1942. The colours in that were intended for the camouflage of Buildings, structures, airfields and vehicles. Not all of these colours were used for any specific subject, i.e. vehicles only used six of the colours at various times according to the contemporary regulation. Some of the colours in BS 987C were continued into BS 381C: 1964 and at the same time BS 987C was cancelled. Only five colours, 298 Olive Drab, 435 Camouflage Red, 436 Dark Camouflage Brown, 437 Very Dark Drab and 499 Service Brown are in BS 381C 1964. None of these actually match the wartime BS987C, they are the close equivalents and are now named where the wartime shades were not, with the exception of SCC 15 Olive Drab and SCC 16 Very Dark Drab. And just to confuse you more, In BS 381C 1964 and subsequent issues you will find a colour named No. 361 Light Stone. The colour here is NOT the 1930-1944 colour of the same name. This colour was a new addition in the 1948 overhaul issue with some new colours, renumeration and layout. The wartime colour No.61 was far more yellow with a brown tinge.

From 1948 the interior of softskins was BS 62 Middle Stone and then replaced by Eau-Di Nil No. 216 which became the cab interior colour of service vehicles from at least 1959 onwards except doors and hatches which opened outwards which will be the exterior colour. During WW 2 the basic exterior camouflage colour was used on interiors of softskins except the body of ambulances which were gloss white but not the rear doors which were or should have been camouflage colour. Post-war ambulances complied to this ruling too. (Equipment Regulations 1948 & 1959)

Azure Blue No.4 of BS 381 1930 is a much stronger and darker colour than MAP Azure and bears no relationship to it. It is use of the same nomenclature that causes a deal of confusion when referring to the blue beneath the RAF B-17 Fortresses of 1941-2.

[John]

Hi Mike, nice to see you in these parts!

First of all, I concur entirely with your comments on the Klaus and Fredrikkson listings, although I would say that I think Dave Klaus did a bit more eyeball checking than Urban Fredrikkson has. These lists are best used as guidance rather than definitive documents.

I agree there are differences between the RAF Museum book colour chip for Sky and the subsequent BS381 chips, but I'm not sure the difference would be particularly noticeable in most common modelling scales.

I hadn't noticed the change in shade for Light Stone, but looking at the 1930 and current versions together it is quite marked. That explains why the RAF 1960s desert scheme didn't look as different from the wartime one as it should have!

As for the "Azure" on B17s, I've long advocated that there was confusion between the MAP and BS381 Azures. Mike Bowyer referred to the B17s as being "Azure" and C Rupert Moore as "Deep Sky". BS381 Azure and MAP Deep Sky aren't that far apart, especially if you are relying on memory to compare them. I think Bowyer ws referring to the BS381 shade rather than the MAP one, and I think Humbrol made the same mistake in the 1960s when they matched their Azure to the wrong standard!

John

[Woodbeck3]

Wow... lots of info here. It all brings up a question to my mind. Here in the U.S. we can purchase a binder of F.S. chips of all the standardized colors from the 30's on ( I know that's kinda gray but a buddy of mine has it and I didn't promote to memory how far back it actually goes... I just remember the color chip for Chromate Yellow is in it and that dates back from the early 20's and their 3 different colors of that!). I have a hard time believing that at least the RAF would not have a preserved copy of chips of these colors somewhere where you can actually compare true colors. I have little faith in research done on items that were susceptible to the ravages of time meaning painted item that have been dug up, in most circumstances. A while back some guys dug up a P-38 that was frozen in a glacier and I would trust that paint to better preserved to it's original nature due to how it was locked in time.

I would like a bit more clarity of the providence of you findings because it seems you have a lot of work invested in this and I would love to have a resource like what you are working towards to add that bit more of historical accuracy to my hobby.

Hope what I said makes sense lol.

Jeff

[Mike Starmer]

John

The wartime colours for the tropical scheme uppersurfaces were Dark Earth and Middle Stone. This Middle Stone was derived from the BS 381 1930 colour No. 62, just a subtle change. In 1948 after the changes with BS 381, these yellow 'Stones' all became new colours as 361, 362 and 363, Light, Middle and Dark respectively. Export aircraft for Middle Eastern countries and some RAF machines were painted in these new shades. But by the 1960s the tropical scheme was Light Stone 361 and Dark Earth 450 as used on Pioneers, Beverleys, Andovers and Beavers etc. because Middle Stone 362 and Dark Stone 363 had been withdrawn by the time that the 1964 edition was published. I do not know an exact date when the use of 362 and 363 was discontinued.

In 1941 when Mike Bowyer was looking at B-17 blue undersurfaces the lighter MAP colour was only in the development stage and not in general use anywhere.

[Test Graham]

I think that there is some confusion coming in here.

First, the lighter shade above I presume is meant to refer to Azure Blue as opposed to the prewar Azure - Paul Lucas has shown that this was indeed available in plenty of time for the B-17s, using stores references. However, Geoff Thomas has shown from both documentary records and surviving parts from Norway that the B-17s were painted in PRU Blue. This rather upset the surviving relatives of Rupert Moore, but they were not able to demonstrate that he actually saw these aircraft closely. There's not a lot of difference between Deep Sky and PRU Blue.