F-111K seating arrangement

[Gmat]

Thinking about a what if F-111K. Would the seating arrangement follow the US style with the pilot on the left or might the UK version have the pilot on the right?

From the drawing of the differences between the F-111K and regular F-111s, the electronics might have more systems from the UK. I would like to add the Ferranti RHAW systems ala Vulcan or perhaps Buccaneer or Tornado. I can think of two problems. One, they might use the same locations as used by the US system and not add anything on the tail, or two, you'd have to work either above or below the IR detector on the tail. The rudder is full span and goes up to meet the IR detector. This would mean adding a section below and raising the IR detector or adding a section above.

Using the Buccaneer as a model, the wing RHAW probes look very nice, but I don't think that it would work on a swing wing, and the solution used by the Tornado, on the sides of the intake might not work as they are too far back on the F-111 and would be masked by the pylons and under wing stores. Perhaps a fairing under the nose might be adopted.

I guess that IOC (introduction to service) would be similar to the F-111Cs, around 1973. I would like to have a Pave Spike laser designator pod like carried in the Buccaneer.

Perhaps a desert scheme used at one of the Red Flags or from what I've read in Cypress might be interesting.

Just showing what goes on in my feverish mind.

Best wishes,

Grant

[AnonymousER99]

Grant

All US made side by side seating aircraft have the pilot on the left. General Dynamics most certainly did not change up the production line tooling for a couple dozen jets. I would pretty much guarantee pilot left, WSO right.

HTH

Mike

[Dave Fleming]

Pilot left is pretty standard, except in helicopters.

I beleive there is a 'counter factual' article on the F-111K coming soon inone of the modelling magazines.

take it you have seen this:

http://groups.msn.com/TSR-2ResearchGroup/g...&PhotoID=41

Edited December 11, 2007 by Dave Fleming

[falcon]

Thinking about a what if F-111K. Would the seating arrangement follow the US style with the pilot on the left or might the UK version have the pilot on the right?

From the drawing of the differences between the F-111K and regular F-111s, the electronics might have more systems from the UK. I would like to add the Ferranti RHAW systems ala Vulcan or perhaps Buccaneer or Tornado. I can think of two problems. One, they might use the same locations as used by the US system and not add anything on the tail, or two, you'd have to work either above or below the IR detector on the tail. The rudder is full span and goes up to meet the IR detector. This would mean adding a section below and raising the IR detector or adding a section above.

Using the Buccaneer as a model, the wing RHAW probes look very nice, but I don't think that it would work on a swing wing, and the solution used by the Tornado, on the sides of the intake might not work as they are too far back on the F-111 and would be masked by the pylons and under wing stores. Perhaps a fairing under the nose might be adopted.

I guess that IOC (introduction to service) would be similar to the F-111Cs, around 1973. I would like to have a Pave Spike laser designator pod like carried in the Buccaneer.

Perhaps a desert scheme used at one of the Red Flags or from what I've read in Cypress might be interesting.

Just showing what goes on in my feverish mind.

Best wishes,

Grant

Having built an F-111K Merlin last year, I think the only really visible change would have been the inflight refuelling probe. If you wanted to do a late 70'/early 80's Merlin, you could go for the fin top Marconi ARI 18228 RWR like on the Phantom.

Here are a couple of pics of mine.

Edited December 11, 2007 by falcon

[Gmat]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Does anyone know where the student pilot sits on a Hunter T bird and Lightning T3/T5? How about on the T-37? Is there a difference? Is the A-6 refueling probe on the pilot's side or the nav's side?

I've read that the refueling probe on the F-111K was offset slightly. Was it left or right? Would it be on the pilot's side or the Nav's side?

Just wondering.

Falcon, that is a very nice F-111K. What kind of ordnance would you put on it?

Thank you,

Grant

[J35 Draken]

Having built an F-111K Merlin last year, I think the only really visible change would have been the inflight refuelling probe. If you wanted to do a late 70'/early 80's Merlin, you could go for the fin top Marconi ARI 18228 RWR like on the Phantom.

Here are a couple of pics of mine.

Cor, if only we'd got them!

[falcon]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Does anyone know where the student pilot sits on a Hunter T bird and Lightning T3/T5? How about on the T-37? Is there a difference? Is the A-6 refueling probe on the pilot's side or the nav's side?

I've read that the refueling probe on the F-111K was offset slightly. Was it left or right? Would it be on the pilot's side or the Nav's side?

Just wondering.

Falcon, that is a very nice F-111K. What kind of ordnance would you put on it?

Thank you,

Grant

The refuelling probe on the 'K' was centreline. There was no offset. As I did mine as an RF-111K Merlin GR.1A, I hadn't planned on arming it. I suspect most of the weapons carried by the Buccaneer, Phantom and Jaguar could have been carried by the Merlin

[J35 Draken]

Was Merlin officially adopted as the British name for the F111 had we'd got them?

[falcon]

Merlin would have been the name of the F-111K, had the sale of them continued.

[Gmat]

This was from the Secret Projects Web Site under "I need a three view drawing of the F-111K" and Thorvic gave this answer.

"The probe is a retractable one fwd of the canopy in the panel between the windscreen and the radome above the avionics bay. It mouted just slightly off the centreline so as not to clash visually with the centre windsceen pillar."

Anybody have any comments or additional info to share?

Anyone know about the seating arrangements for the Lightning T3 and T5?

Thanks Falcon. What thingies under wingies would YOU like to put on your F-111K?

I'm a great fan of 27 Squadron, so I'd do one in the nuclear strike role with We-177s. I think that they would be internally stored with a pair of wing tanks, which would make the WE-177s hard to see on the model. The other option would be an internal fuel tank, and a pair or wing tanks and WE-177s on the wings to maximize range. What's the point of putting them on if you can't see them, right? A third option would be having a buddy pair, one with fuel tanks and a refueling pod and perhaps internal bombs used to top off another with tanks and internal bombs for extended supersonic dash. Of course, the tanks would have to be dropped when they started flying thru the serious areas. All with a slightly smaller Dumbo insignia than was used on the Vulcan and perhaps with Tornado era roundel flashes.

All of this is just speculation from reading about other versions and other aircraft like the FJ-4Bs. Fun to think about, though.

For the Red Flag/Desert Storm era, it would be with a Pave Spike pod under fuselage with a ALQ-119 jammer pod to the rear and with a pair of laser guided bombs under the wings from the Revell Tornado. Also a pair of Sidewinders on the outer wing pylons. Painted in sand and stone.

How would you like to have yours done?

Best wishes,

Grant.

[XV107]

J35 -

The information about naming is all buried in AIR 20/11751, which I happened to dig out at the PRO a few years back when taking a break from going through the files I should've been looking at...

My first post over on What if Modelers was on this very subject (people had asked if there had been a name for the F-111) and read:

There is long (and extensive) correspondence in the Public Record Office on the subject: the Australians were asked to join in the 'find a name game', but came up with 27 Aborignal names. The RAF came up with the Harrogate (I jest not...), the Richmond (rejected by the Australians for fear of appearing to favour an Aussie Rules football team - aking to calling the aircraft the Manchester United, I suppose) and an array of other dull names before an Air Marshal got a grip and told his staff something a little more exciting was needed. They then came up with a list of birds of prey, from which Merlin was selected.

Although it was planned that the Secretary of State for Defence would announce the name in parliament at some point in 1967 (IIRC), the name never made it into the public domain. A civil servant pointed out that announcing the name before the contract was signed or before the first flight of the aircraft was against precedent, and as there were growing doubts that the F-111K contract would be completed or that the F-111K would have a first flight, it would be terribly embarrassing to break with this convention. About three weeks after that minute was sent, the F-111K was cancelled.

In case Merlin proved unacceptable for some reason, alternative bird names were in reserve, including Goshawk, Buzzard and Gyrfalcon. However, since the Merlin (bird) sweeps its wings back when attacking, the name seemed perfect. The RAF decreed that all its strike aircraft from that point onward should be named after birds of prey (presumably in a bid to streamline the naming process, which for the F-111 took up quite a bit of staff time). Which is why we had Jaguar and Tornado next, obviously...

Edited December 12, 2007 by XV107

[Don McIntyre]

Seating for T-37s, Lightning T.5s, F-111, Strikemaster, Su-24, and almost all other side-by-side fixed wing aircraft continues to be Pilot on the Left, Copilot/Nav/Bombaradier/Trainee on the Right.

[Gmat]

Thank you XV107, on the origin of the name.

Would Brits have found the alternate name Buzzard acceptable?

Thank you very much, Don,

With a dissapointed sigh.

The F-111K just got a little less different.

Best wishes,

Grant

Edited December 13, 2007 by Gmat

[DamienB]

[Gmat]

Thank you, DamienB,

Pretty interesting information. I wonder if the Australians would have ended up calling them F-111C Merlins if the RAF hadn't cancelled them?

Best wishes,

Grant

[DamienB]

Shouldn't think so as clearly they were happy with just 'F111'.

[XV107]

But the Aussies did come out with some great names when asked.

The Air Staff could only manage to pronounce one of them (Taipan) since the other ten or so were aboriginal names...

I have the impression from reading between the lines in the file that the Aussies weren't that bothered (as Damian says) and I wonder if their files from the time suggest that they offered some names but without really giving it that much thought.

Wonder if I could use that as an excuse for a research trip to Aus?

[keefr22]

Seating for T-37s, Lightning T.5s, F-111, Strikemaster, Su-24, and almost all other side-by-side fixed wing aircraft continues to be Pilot on the Left, Copilot/Nav/Bombaradier/Trainee on the Right.

Hmm, don't think that's right for British trainers. Certainly when I trained on Bulldogs the trainee sat on the left - so that when you flew solo you were in the pilot in command position. (this is also the same on most, if not all, civvie trainers). And I'm pretty sure that that was standard for JP's, Hunter T-Birds & Lightning tubs. I also think that some trainers didn't have all the equipment duplicated on the instructors (right) side of the 'pit.

Keef

[Tim]

I seem to recall someone (think it was the sainted Roy Braybrook) saying that the Australian F-111's that finally entered RAAF service were in fact the cancelled F-111K airframes. Think the serial blocks were also allocated weren't they?