FAA Hellcat MkI colors

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello folks,

There are a lot of threads regarding FAA U.S. built aircraft. I know that the early Corsairs were painted in U.S equivalent colors, so is it reasonable to assume that the early Hellcats and Wildcats were painted in the OD green, dark gull grey and light aircraft grey? I am sure this is opening up a can of worms but I just read the postings regarding the RAF P-51 so it got me thinking about how I should paint my Martlet's and the two Eduard Hellcats I have.

Cheers

[Test Graham]

No, they were painted in a good match to the FAA colours. VERY early Martlets excepted.

Later Wildcats built by Eastern Motors did not have such a good match.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Graham Boak

[Chuck1945]

From the old, now defunct FAA/SIG (US version) - Grumman used American paints, but they were matched to MAP colors (TSS)

[Seahawk]

I agree with Chuck and Graham. See this thread:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...ff+Thomas\

[Spitfires Forever]

I just read the recommended thread, now I am even more confused. This is another of those "black holes" we modelers fall into when we try to be as accurate as possible. I will assume that the Mk I will be in equivalent colors since Grumman did their best to color match the MOS/mos designated colors. Perhaps adding a little white to the FAA colors (I still use Model Master oil based enamels) might give them a more authentic look, who knows? Also, depending how often the carrier based aircraft were checked for corrosion and touched up, or resprayed with FAA designated paint when returned to land bases in the UK, we could possibly have FAA painted aircraft after all. Since I won't be entering any IPMS competition anytime soon so only I will know. Still, I am a bit of a perfectionist and it will bother me. Is this the modelers curse?

[Seahawk]

I just read the recommended thread, now I am even more confused. This is another of those "black holes" we modelers fall into when we try to be as accurate as possible. I will assume that the Mk I will be in equivalent colors since Grumman did their best to color match the MOS/mos designated colors. Perhaps adding a little white to the FAA colors (I still use Model Master oil based enamels) might give them a more authentic look, who knows? Also, depending how often the carrier based aircraft were checked for corrosion and touched up, or resprayed with FAA designated paint when returned to land bases in the UK, we could possibly have FAA painted aircraft after all. Since I won't be entering any IPMS competition anytime soon so only I will know. Still, I am a bit of a perfectionist and it will bother me. Is this the modelers curse?

Sorry about that. The key bit in that thread is the Grumman document found by Geoff Thomas which shows that Grumman used equivalent paint shades, ie colours that matched the official British colours and not substitutes ie colours that, while not matching British colours, were officially approved as being acceptable alternatives. The paint used by Grumman throughout the war on camouflaged British aircraft may not have been made in Britain but it was indistinguishable from paint that was. This is borne out in the few available colour photos. So you can use your favoured version of the official MAP shades: by all means lighten for scale effect if you so wish but there's no need to do so to match the original paint colour.

The above applies to Grumman aircraft built by Grumman. Different rules may apply to Grumman aircraft built by contractors like Eastern Aircraft (Avengers).

[Steven Eisenman]

I love to post pretty pictures:

[Fernando]

Hi, all,

By all accounts, the paint used by Grumman matched British MAP colours pretty well, so as to be undistinguishable from a modeller's point of view.

Eastern and GM built Grumman aircraft (Martlet/Wildcats and Avengers, not Hellcats) were painted with "substitute" colours (i.e. Bulletin ANA 157 ones)

Fernando

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks to you all for your input. I will go with the traditional FAA colors on the Hellcat, Corsair II and Wildcat/Martlet IV, then proceed with the U.S. substitutes for the FM-2 / Wildcat Mk VI and Corsair I, then glossy sea blue for the CorsairIII. Hopefully this will suffice, now to find a replacement canopy for the Sword FM-2, the vacu-form canopies are atrocious and what I feel are the biggest detractor from the kit. That will be my next post actually.

Cheers

[Steven Eisenman]

Thanks to you all for your input. I will go with the traditional FAA colors on the Hellcat, Corsair II and Wildcat/Martlet IV, then proceed with the U.S. substitutes for the FM-2 / Wildcat Mk VI and Corsair I, then glossy sea blue for the CorsairIII. Hopefully this will suffice, now to find a replacement canopy for the Sword FM-2, the vacu-form canopies are atrocious and what I feel are the biggest detractor from the kit. That will be my next post actually.

Cheers

NOOOOOOOOooooo!

The Corsair II was in substitute colors. ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 602 Light Gray.

All Vought were in substitute.

It was the Corsair IV in GSB.

The Corsair III was from Goodyear and came in two schemes, the USN "tri-color" scheme and the substitute colors.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I love to post pretty pictures:

Oh my word! Look how filthy that aircraft is! What a superb picture. Thank you.

[Dave Fleming]

The Corsair III was from Goodyear and came in two schemes, the USN "tri-color" scheme and the substitute colors.

Steven really means Brewster...

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks for the info Steven, this is obviously a speciality of yours, so your input is very valuable. I appreciate you passion on this subject and will make the proper adjustments. I thank you and all the other guys who chimed in on this topic.I am sure I will have more questions regarding aircraft color schemes in the future. It is no doubt one of the never ending topics that show up consistently in these forums.

Cheers

[Mike G]

NOOOOOOOOooooo!

The Corsair II was in substitute colors. ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 602 Light Gray.

All Vought were in substitute.

It was the Corsair IV in GSB.

The Corsair III was from Goodyear and came in two schemes, the USN "tri-color" scheme and the substitute colors.

Can't see why they would need to substitute ANA 602 Light Gray for Sky as Sky was an ANA colour (610). ANA 603 was called Sea Gray because it was British Extra Dark Sea Grey so wasn't a substitute as such (it replaced Neutral Gray). The ANA standards were meant to be common to aircraft built in America for RAF/FAA/USAAF/USN and the range was configured to satisfy all requirements - this is why it includes RAF colours such as Dark Earth (617) and Middle Stone (615).

Although promulgated in 1943, the ANA colours didn't apparently appear until early 1944 by which time the USAAF had ceased to use camouflage. This is why some USAAF aircraft used RAF paints when camouflage was deemed necessary in the ETO. So the only necessary subsitute was Olive Drab (ANA 613) for Dark Slate Grey and Dark Green although it is possible that sufficient stocks of the original 'correct' colours existed to make its use unnecessary.

For further info check out Robert and Victor Archer's book 'USAAF Aircraft Markings and Camouflage 1941 - 1947' which includes ANA and other paint charts (printed) and an explanation of their use and derivation.

[Steven Eisenman]

First the British agreed to the ANA use for US made aircraft and the same colors were used on the P-47. Interesting? ANA 603 was actually to replace Neutral Gray. It was not close to EDSG, not as blue. It was a substitute as it was not an attempt to match or be the equivalent.

You can rationalize it, but the aircraft companies had their own peculiarities.

The USAAF use of RAF paints was when they were in the UK, they were not applied in the US. RAF was available and didn't have to be shipped from the USA. There were more important things, like men, munitions and oil and food.

[Spitfires Forever]

Do any of the ANA colors translate into FS colors? Basically, I use model master because it is the easiest to find and fairly accurate color-wise. I need the equivalent colors translated from ANA to FS numbers if possible. I know it is asking a lot but I don't have the info readily available to me that will allow me to match the colors. Dark and light gull grey as well as basic OD green will be no problem, but I understand that there are several shades of OD green.

Thanks again folks!

[Greenshirt]

Try the Model Master site (here). Put your mouse pointer over the color and it also shows the ANA number.

Tim

[Spitfires Forever]

Try the Model Master site (here). Put your mouse pointer over the color and it also shows the ANA number.

Tim

Thanks mate!

[Mike G]

Do any of the ANA colors translate into FS colors? Basically, I use model master because it is the easiest to find and fairly accurate color-wise. I need the equivalent colors translated from ANA to FS numbers if possible. I know it is asking a lot but I don't have the info readily available to me that will allow me to match the colors. Dark and light gull grey as well as basic OD green will be no problem, but I understand that there are several shades of OD green.

Thanks again folks!

Again from the Archer book, they quote that no FS 595 number produced the identical shade to ANA standards. They quote 36118 as the successor to ANA 603 Sea Gray and 34088 (FS 595B) for 613 Olive Drab. 610 Sky is quoted as 34424. 36440 is given for ANA 620 Light Gull Gray and 36231 for Dark Gull Gray

But again these are not identical colours merely supercessions. The table in the book shades the colours that match from Bulletin 41 (1940) through ANA to FS and none of the FS colours are thus identified.

The book is a great buy and on sale at Amazon.com for a mere $56 (£34)!! £59 on Amazon.uk however! Welcome to rip-off Britain!!

Hope this helps

[Mike G]

First the British agreed to the ANA use for US made aircraft and the same colors were used on the P-47. Interesting? ANA 603 was actually to replace Neutral Gray. It was not close to EDSG, not as blue. It was a substitute as it was not an attempt to match or be the equivalent.

You can rationalize it, but the aircraft companies had their own peculiarities.

The USAAF use of RAF paints was when they were in the UK, they were not applied in the US. RAF was available and didn't have to be shipped from the USA. There were more important things, like men, munitions and oil and food.

To quote from the Archer book: '...Sea Gray contained a distinct blue tint. This was because (it) actually came from the British Extra Dark Sea Grey colour, whereas the AAF Neutral Gray was a mixture of black and white only, containing no blue at all.'

And earlier: '...ANA Sea Gray (the replacement for the earlier ....Neutral Gray NO.43).

[Dave Fleming]

I'm sure Dana Bell also said that ANA603 was the US adoption of Extra Dark Sea Grey

[Nick Millman]

It was. Joint Aircraft Committee Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage meeting recommendation dated 28 July 1942:-

"A (6) That the British Extra Dark Sea Gray be accepted as standard, and the Navy proposed Dark Blue and Blue Gray, British Ocean Gray and Army Neutral Gray be eliminated. That the name of the Extra Dark Sea Gray be changed to Sea Gray (ANA 603).

(7) That the Navy Light Gray (ANA 602) be adopted as standard and the British Sea Gray Medium be eliminated

(On 19 January 1944 this was revised to adopt Navy Gull Gray Dark as standard [ANA 621] and British Sea Gray Medium and Navy Light Gray [ANA 602] were to be eliminated)

(11) That the Army Dark Olive Drab (ANA 613) be accepted as standard and the British Dark Slate Gray and Dark Green be eliminated.

(13) That the British Sky Type S gray be accepted as standard (ANA 610)."

The TSS applied to US export aircraft intended for the FAA was Dark Slate Gray (US Olive Drab), Extra Dark Sea Gray (US ANA 603) and Sky (US ANA 610) in accordance with FAA TSS requirements. Medium Sea Gray was not part of the TSS therefore ANA 602 and its successor ANA 621 would not have been applied.

[Troy Smith]

I love to post pretty pictures:

This I presume is from the same sequence of pics. Quite possibly the same plane.

While not much use for colours, figured it was worth posting for the visible code [unit anyone?] weathering, and also for FAA parachute harness/survival gear detail.

hope of interest, does anyone know are there more in this sequence? Are these more Life magazine shots?

There is certainly a colour sequence of FAA Avengers in the far east on a land base, which may be of interest/use if slightly off topic.

like this for example

More probably here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/2...57605269786717/

cheers

T

[expositor]

It was. Joint Aircraft Committee Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage meeting recommendation dated 28 July 1942:-

"A (6) That the British Extra Dark Sea Gray be accepted as standard, and the Navy proposed Dark Blue and Blue Gray, British Ocean Gray and Army Neutral Gray be eliminated. That the name of the Extra Dark Sea Gray be changed to Sea Gray (ANA 603).

(7) That the Navy Light Gray (ANA 602) be adopted as standard and the British Sea Gray Medium be eliminated

(On 19 January 1944 this was revised to adopt Navy Gull Gray Dark as standard [ANA 621] and British Sea Gray Medium and Navy Light Gray [ANA 602] were to be eliminated)

(11) That the Army Dark Olive Drab (ANA 613) be accepted as standard and the British Dark Slate Gray and Dark Green be eliminated.

(13) That the British Sky Type S gray be accepted as standard (ANA 610)."

The TSS applied to US export aircraft intended for the FAA was Dark Slate Gray (US Olive Drab), Extra Dark Sea Gray (US ANA 603) and Sky (US ANA 610) in accordance with FAA TSS requirements. Medium Sea Gray was not part of the TSS therefore ANA 602 and its successor ANA 621 would not have been applied.

Nick,

I thought I've seen those TSS amendments before in one of the modeling magazines years ago, but didn't recall seeing that a british color became the standard for the us paint manufacturers except for those colors developed specifically to replicate british colors; sky, azure, and middlestone. The others

were accepted from among all the other american paints that were either the replacements or equivalents. Not pretending to be an expert or in any way your equal, my understanding was that ANA 603 was already neutral gray and became the replacement in american lend-lease production for extra dark sea grey and ocean grey. My point being if they were going to use a darker grey, they would have given it another number. I'm also puzzled with the above reference to dark gull gray which is much closer to dark sea grey than medium. ANA 620(?) light gull gray was the replacement for ANA 602 as both the original and replacement were USN colors only differing in the addition of yellow in gull grey, or so I recall from vol 2 of Elliot's USN Colors works.

This brings for discussion something that has always been elusive for me, and that's the varying FS number history given to the ANA colors in general, 603 in particular. I feel that FS 6918 is too dark for neutral grey, but as it's a match for the darker RN extra dark sea grey, it became the FS number most authors cite when relating FS and ANA matches. That said, recently seeing some color photos of lend-lease FAA a/c like the one if the F6F included in this thread, have me now doubting that, so back to my question that if 603 was the army's underside neutral grey, FS 36173, 36187(? or thereabouts) how could that number be used for a different, darker color without causing some confusion. (maybe it's just my confusion?)

Thanks and regards,

Jim

[Nick Millman]

Hi Jim

The key here is that ANA 603 was not "already neutral grey" but superceded it. One of the problems with presuming FS numbers represent these actual colours arises when a single FS value becomes the closest match to two different colours. If you look at the evolution of the paint colour standards (there is a useful table in Archer) you will see that Neutral Gray 43 went nowhere after Bulletin 41 and did not appear either in 3-1 Revised of 1943 or in ANA 157 of 1943. I have two swatches of Neutral Gray and could not match them closely to any FS 595 values, being too dark for 36173 and too light for 36118 although those are both variously cited as matches for it.

Although supposedly superseded by ANA 621, ANA 602 survived into TT-C-595 of 1950 as 3635 but was then superseded by 36440 in FS 595 of 1956. 36440 was therefore not an identical paint colour standard to ANA 602 or 3635 but rather replaced it. The fact that it was "similar" is neither here nor there. And it is inevitable with applied paints that you will find sufficient variance for a sample of paint matched to 36440 to perfectly match a sample of paint matched to ANA 602.

This is one of the most misunderstood aspects of the colours, because the FS 595 numbers have always been presumed to be identical to those they replaced and in modelling circles have evolved to become those colours.

The same is true of ANA 603 Sea Gray which became 3610 in TT-C-595 in 1950 but was then replaced by 36118 in FS 595 of 1956. (Btw I could not find the FS value '6918' you refer to).

As to the odd correlations of "dark greys" there is a useful table in Bulletin 157a (Standard Aircraft Camouflage Colors) of March 1944 showing the new ANA standards, the "nearest equivalent" Army Air Forces (Bulletin 41) colours, the superseded Bureau of Aeronautics colours and the British MAP colours for which the ANA colours could be substituted. This table makes it absolutely clear that ANA 603 was held to be the nearest equivalent to Neutral Gray 43 but could also substitute for Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Ocean Grey! So to reiterate, ANA 603 was only held to be a "near equivalent" to Neutral Gray 43, could be used instead of Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Sea Grey and Ocean Grey but was eventually replaced by FS 36118 - all actually different and distinct paint colour standards. This substitution was not the problem it at first appears because EDSG and Ocean Grey were required separately by the FAA and RAF (so ANA 603 would suffice) whilst another ANA colour 610 Sky was required by the FAA for under surfaces. That leaves Sea Grey Medium.

In the same table ANA 602 Light Gray superseded BuAir Light Gray but was not listed as a substitute for any British colour. Medium Sea Grey was not even mentioned. Yet from the North American factory specifications we know that ANA 602 was being specified as a substitute for Medium Sea Grey on Mustang aircraft for the RAF from April 1944 even though by then officially superseded by ANA 621 Dark Gull Gray. In fact the JAC had approved recommendations that ANA 621 would replace Navy Light Gray (ANA 602) and British Sea Gray Medium on 27 Jan 1944 but ANA 621 was not added to the Bulletin 157 schedule of colours until 157b of 20 Aug 1946!

Archer confirms that ANA 603 originated from Extra Dark Sea Gray and had a blueish tint that was absent from Neutral Grey 43. This flies in the face of modelling conventions based on the assessment of colour photographs (of course!) which often do ascribe a blueish tint to Neutral Gray. The "blueish" appearance of grey paints is a phenomenon beyond the scope of this short post but it is interesting that the pigments for Neutral Gray were specified (unlike Olive Drab) and consisted of titanium dioxide (white), yellow iron oxide and lamp black - not just black and white as so often stated. Yellow iron oxide has an inevitable 'warming' effect on greys and may have been included to offset the tendency of a pure neutral gray to appear blueish.

Some of these changes were academic because by the time the new ANA colour samples had made their way to manufacturers very late in 1943 the US was on the point of deleting camouflage painting in aircraft production and this was to have an impact on the factory painting of aircraft destined for the RAF.

Another assertion often made is that ANA 613 and ANA 603 never actually replaced Dark Olive Drab 41 and Neutral Gray 43. This is untrue. There are at least two officially documented references to the practical (not theoretical or 'intended') application of paint colours to these standards to USAAF aircraft late in the war. One of the reasons for the delay in introducing ANA 613 related to the reflectance requirements. The original Dark Olive Drab was 7.8% but tests by Material Command Engineering Division at Eglin Field in June 1943 revealed that the new paint had a reflectivity of 9.4% which exceeded the recommended 8%. Various measures were then undertaken to reduce the reflectivity of ANA 613 before it was accepted for use. ANA 613 was eventually reduced to 7% which was the same reflectivity as MAP Dark Green.

Regards

Nick

Edited August 29, 2011 by Nick Millman