RAF Mustang colours

[Enzo the Magnificent]

What were the camouflage colours used on RAF Mustang Mk I and II on delivery? Were they the RAF colours or the closest US equivalent?

And if they were the US equivalent, how long would it be before aircraft were completely repainted in RAF standard colours?

[ColFord]

The original NA Mustang Mk.Is (no equivalent US designation, pre-dates the P-51) were originally painted at the NAA factory in US manufactured paint equivalents to the RAF temperate scheme - dark green, dark earth, over sky, with early pattern national markings. They were delivered in that scheme to the UK and early batches were operated in that scheme. They were repainted by July-August 1942 in the UK into the newer Day Fighter Scheme using Dark Green, Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, revised national markings with reduced yellow and white segments. In some cases because of a shortage of Ocean Grey, they were repainted using what was known as 'mixed grey' which comprised a mix of Medium Sea Grey and Night/Black. Depending on the percentages used, how thinned, how applied, this could come out markedly lighter or darker than the targeted Ocean Grey shade. All the repainting in the UK was with RAF stock paints.

The NA Mustang Mk.IAs (straight P-51 equivalent) armed with the 4 x 20mm cannon, were also painted and delivered in the older RAF temperate scheme and early style national markings. On arrival and reassembly in the UK, they were stripped and repainted into a standardised RAF Day Fighter Scheme camouflage and later national markings before entering service. US manufactured painted at the factory, RAF stock paints in the UK.

The NA Mustang Mk.IIs (P-51A equivalent) were also delivered to the UK in the older RAF temperate scheme, but with later style markings. Again on arrival in the UK they were stripped and repainted into a standardised RAF Day Fighter Scheme camouflage and later national markings before entering service. As for the Mk.IA.

See here for more useful information on RAF Allison Mustangs in an earlier thread on Britmodeller:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...&hl=mustang

We also had a couple of very long threads over at the P51SIG in the modelling section on early RAF Mustang C&M and the colours used and some of the subtleties of the way it developed over the life of the aircraft.

How soon before repainting varied greatly for the Mk.Is, but by late 1942 they were all basically repainted in the DFS.

The Mk.IAs, after reassembly, modifications, they were repainted before entering Squadron service, so somewhere in the months between arrival and issue to the operational Squadron.

The Mk.IIs, after reassembly, modifications, then repainted.

Note: given by the time the P-51/Mustang Mk.IA and P-51A/Mustang Mk.II aircraft were delivered to the UK, the RAF had adopted the Day Fighter Scheme, all these aircraft were stripped and repainted after reassembly in the UK and repainted into a standardised RAF DFS scheme using standard RAF paints before entering RAF service. In the case of the Mk.IAs, some of these aircraft were held for up to 6 months before finally being released for service with the RAF after arrival in the UK. The Mk.IAs arrived in the UK over the period November 1942 to late January 1943, but the first of them did not enter RAF operational service until June 1943. Similarly for the MK.IIs, they arrived in the UK over the period June-July 1943, but were not first issued for operational service until May 1944 having spent considerable time in Maintenance Units, Group Support Units and contractors being brought up to specification. In some instances part of this delay was for fitting of the Malcolm Hood to the aircraft.

Regards,

[Steven Eisenman]

Just a clarification. The aircraft were painted in the U.S. equivalents of Dark Green and Dark Earth. It is the underside that is subject to debate. They were not in a color that match or was equivalent of RAF Sky. The du Pont name was Sky Type S Gray. This color has been subject to endless debate and said to have ranged from a light gray to bluish gray with perhaps a touch of green. The name, as you can imagine, causes confusion.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[Aeronut]

Out of interest, a RAE report I've read about improvements to aircraft for intercepting the V1, noted that the Mustang III had wings which were covered in badly paint chipped paint - up to SIX coats of paint.

[Edgar]

In some cases because of a shortage of Ocean Grey, they were repainted using what was known as 'mixed grey' which comprised a mix of Medium Sea Grey and Night/Black. Depending on the percentages used, how thinned, how applied, this could come out markedly lighter or darker than the targeted Ocean Grey shade. All the repainting in the UK was with RAF stock paints.

It would be nice if this "Mixed Grey" myth could be killed, once and for all; officialdom never used the title.

5-8-41 D.O.R. sent the following signal,"The DARK EARTH is to be replaced by a colour, obtained by mixing seven parts of SEA GREY MEDIUM reference 33B/157 and one part of NIGHT reference 33B/205."

11-8-41 L. Hardy, for the D.T.D., wrote to Farnborough,"A decision has now been taken to replace the dark earth on day fighters of Fighter Command by a grey colour obtained by mixing seven parts of sea grey medium and one part of Night." He also asked for colour standards (12 needed immediately) and that Farnborough should give the colour a name. A note appended to the letter notes that "Ocean Grey 36 handed to Mr. Hardy 21-8-41."

So, there were only 16 days in which the new colour remained unnamed, and a mix of 7 parts MSG + 1 part Night was not a replacement for Ocean Grey, it was Ocean Grey.

Edgar

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. It has been most useful. So I now feel quite confident in painting my Mk II for the P-51 STGB in standard RAF colours.

Unless you know better, that is...

Edit: Or maybe not... I've just realised that my build will be a Mk.III (P-51B equivalent)

Edited August 11, 2011 by Enzo Matrix

[Fernando]

It would be nice if this "Mixed Grey" myth could be killed, once and for all; officialdom never used the title.

5-8-41 D.O.R. sent the following signal,"The DARK EARTH is to be replaced by a colour, obtained by mixing seven parts of SEA GREY MEDIUM reference 33B/157 and one part of NIGHT reference 33B/205."

11-8-41 L. Hardy, for the D.T.D., wrote to Farnborough,"A decision has now been taken to replace the dark earth on day fighters of Fighter Command by a grey colour obtained by mixing seven parts of sea grey medium and one part of Night." He also asked for colour standards (12 needed immediately) and that Farnborough should give the colour a name. A note appended to the letter notes that "Ocean Grey 36 handed to Mr. Hardy 21-8-41."

So, there were only 16 days in which the new colour remained unnamed, and a mix of 7 parts MSG + 1 part Night was not a replacement for Ocean Grey, it was Ocean Grey.

Edgar

Hi, Edgar,

I have seen the copy of the document which you once posted, and it is pretty solid evidence. I have since been puzzled, however, by the fact that they called it "Ocean Grey", instead of simply "Dark Sea Grey" (as obtained from darkening Sea Grey Medium!) I am also aware of, and also puzzled by, the fact that DSG already existed... that may explain the strange nomenclature (to avoid confusion) but also raises de question why the colour chosen was not simply DSG, already available, and probably in some unused stocks, since "shadow shading" was being abandoned in practice for biplanes.

Moreover, and from an experience limited by working with HOBBY PAINTS, not the originals or nothing like them, mixing SGM with Black (or even Night) gives a dark grey which looks much more like DSG than OG, lacking the bluish tint of the latter... I understand that the real Night might have had ultramarine or cobalt or prussian Blue as a pigment and be much more intrusive in the mix, giving a more pronounced bluish tinge than a hobby paint can, even though its look may be the same.

FErnando

[gingerbob]

I'm sorry Fernando,

I've just spun off another thread, because this (in my opinion) deserves its own thread. Would you mind if we continue the discussion there, since it goes well beyond Mustangs? Sorry, I was working on it while you were posting here, so I didn't notice until too late. And if it presumptuous of me to do this, then forgive!

New thread

Thanks,

bob

Edited August 11, 2011 by gingerbob

[Test Graham]

I'm not convinced that adding black - or Night - to Medium Sea Grey should be expected to produce Dark Sea Grey and, by extension, Extra Dark Sea Grey. I think a fuller description of the contributory pigments is required to clarify the matter.

Ocean Grey appears to be closer to PRU Blue than the Sea Greys, and (along the same lines) I used to be told that it had a slight greenish tinge. However, regardless of identifying the intended "perfect" mix, the use of the term "Mixed Grey" should certainly survive as a description of the varied colours seen on mid-war RAF fighters. It is less clumsy than the more precise "a badly-mixed paint intended to match Ocean Grey."

Edited August 11, 2011 by Graham Boak

[Fernando]

I'm not convinced that adding black - or Night - to Medium Sea Grey should be expected to produce Dark Sea Grey and, by extension, Extra Dark Sea Grey. I think a fuller description of the contributory pigments is required to clarify the matter.

Ocean Grey appears to be closer to PRU Blue than the Sea Greys, and (along the same lines) I used to be told that it had a slight greenish tinge.

Hi, Graham,

I have read somewhere (a precise source!) that by changing the Black/Night content the lineage could be established from Sky Grey, through SGM, DSG and EDSG.

Your call for pigments is a proper one, for looking-alike paints do not necessarily have the same pigments, and they react different accordingly.

I have always thougth the same about OG: closer to a Blue, such as PR Blue, than to any other dark grey, at least since I took a closer look to the Xtracolour paint! (Aeromaster looked decidedly a true dark grey)

FErnando

[Mr T]

As an experiment I mixed xtracyrlix night and Medium Sea Grey paints to create what has been called 'mixed grey' and ended up with a colour midway between Dark Sea Grey and Ocean Grey. My understanding based on what has been written by Ian huntley and James Goulding was that Ocean Grey as a colour countained blue and yellow pigments. Given that post war Dark Sea Grey was seen as an acceptable colour I have often mused why it was thought necessary to introduce yet another grey. Possibly it might be that Ocean Grey gave better results than Dark Sea Grey for the conditions over the Channel and Northen France where most fighter operations were taking place when it became clear that Temperate Land Scheme was not the best camouflage.

I fully appreciate my experiment lacked any rigour as a piece of research, but it was interesting to see how close the matches were to the best colour matches I had available.

[Steven Eisenman]

Possibly it might be that Ocean Grey gave better results than Dark Sea Grey for the conditions over the Channel and Northen France where most fighter operations were taking place when it became clear that Temperate Land Scheme was not the best camouflage.

I fully appreciate my experiment lacked any rigour as a piece of research, but it was interesting to see how close the matches were to the best colour matches I had available.

To oversimplify, like the Germans going from the Greens (70/71) the the Grays (74/75), it was going from a defensive scheme to an offensive scheme reflecting more in air, at altitude, combat and more cross Channel operation. Note towards the end, the Germans went back to the defensive scheme of brown and greens (81/82/83).

[ColFord]

Edgar,

Agree "Mixed Grey" was not an official term used, however when other than the out of the can stock paint that was officially produced as "Ocean Grey" was used and I want to indicate that the "colour, obtained by mixing seven parts of SEA GREY MEDIUM reference 33B/157 and one part of NIGHT reference 33B/205." was applied because they could not get stocks of "Ocean Grey" paint what do I use?

I have two words that are now generally known to be a term adopted post-War to describe the use of the substitute or alternate for the properly formulated and correctly tinted paint, that depending on how it was mixed and applied could range from a shade not much darker than MSG to a very dark grey much darker than Ocean Grey. I can use 2 words or 20 to state the same thing.

Interested in what might be an acceptable term.

[Edgar]

I see nothing wrong in "a mixed grey." No capitals = no title.

[Dave Fleming]

I see nothing wrong in "a mixed grey." No capitals = no title.

What was it Paul Lucas suggested - Ocean Grey (Mixed)?

[Edgar]

Ocean Grey (Mixed)?

Even better, with a small "m" on "mixed." Seems to indicate, too, that PL considers Ocean Grey and the mixture to be one and the same, which won't please some.

Edgar