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F-117 stealth bomb loader.


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#1 james424

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:10 PM

Ok, bit of a random one. I'm looking at using my stealth/hummer box set for a diorama and I was just wondering if any of you knew whether or not the 1:48 USAF bomb loader from Verlinden is a reasonably current one (say late 80's onward) or if its one from WWII??

Any info would be much appreciated as always.

james

#2 spike7451

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:17 PM

If you mean THIS ONE HERE, then it's near as to the current ones in use.

#3 Mike V

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 06:38 PM

The Verlinden MJ-1 is more representative of the early/Veitnam era (some into the 80s) Jammer than the current (last 20 years or so) MJ-1 Jammer. One dead give away is the fuel tank, which is the low profile/smaller version. Though the MJ-1 was used sometimes to load the F-117, the weapons guys usually used the MJ-4 Jammer, which is larger, has more articulation movement features, and postional struts.

On the left is the MJ-1 and the MJ-4 on the right:

Posted Image

Posted Image

As far as I know, no AM co makes the MJ-4 in any scale; at least not yet.

Mike V

#4 Bomber_Harris

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 06:54 PM

I think L'Arsenal make one see HERE
I am assuming its the same but I could be wrong...quite often am!
HTH
Rich

Edited by Bomber_Harris, 08 August 2011 - 06:55 PM.


#5 Mike V

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:05 PM

Looks like an MJ-4 alight, but the back end is too shallow and The tank is the low profile/old type. The front tires are too wide and those fenders were removed years ago. I can tell that the front loader and struts are a bit short, but the load arm detail looks good. Might have to pic one up and check it out closer.

Mike V

#6 Naun123

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:58 PM

There were two jammers: the MJ-1 and the MHU-83C/E, which was AKA MJ-4. We just called them the J-1 or J-4.

I can't see clearly, but the table on the ebay Verlinden one doesn't look right. ESCI also released a j-1, but it's an old version too.

The old jammers (both types) were mogas powered and those had a vent panel on the roof that you had to open. If QA, safety, or AGE saw you driving a mogas jammer with the panel closed, you'd get an instant article 15 at my first base. The roof line of those was flat. The diesel/JP-4/JP-8 jammers (we used to take fuel from the aircraft fuel dumps and burn it in the jammers), have a raised roof line to make room for the engine and to allow extra cooling. The Mogas motors were always the same green as the jammer by the time I got a hold of them. The diesels were yellow until some time in the mid 90's when they started turning green at my base too. The engine compartment panels of the mogas jammers were made of pretty thin sheet metal and they were usually thoroughly banged up. The diesel ones were made of a thicker metal that held up better. There was usually a lot of burned paint and rust around the exhaust of the mogas jammers. We were constantly scraping and painting. The paint on top of the diesel engine compartment weathered faster than the rest of the jammer due to the heat, but it was usually just oxidation more than anything (flat and lighter colored than the rest). There was a choke control and pull out throttle on the panel of the mogas jammers that were a real PITA. I pulled more than one completely out of the panel trying to get the thing started. Diesels only had the throttle knob you pulled out (toward the driver), but it was a better design. Both had a rubber cap covered push button starter.

The old Vietnam era jammers had standard transmissions with a gear shift beside the seat (saw one in a base museum once). My crew chief said they did away with that because you could pull wheelies really easily (especially on the J-1) and a lot of people killed themselves by rolling the jammer over on top of themselves. They were also much faster than the later jammers with the hydrostatic drives. Jammers are rear wheel drive, rear wheel steer, which makes them inherently unstable (except for the J-4 with the outriggers extended out and forward). You know how stable your car is forward and how unstable it is backward? Like that. The hydrostatic drives could be easily limited so hydrostatic jammers usually had a fairly slow top speed, with a few notable exceptions which we loved. The original mogas hydrostatic drive jammers had flat fuel tanks where the stick shift used to be. The Diesel ones had raised tanks. I never drove a stick jammer, so I don't know where the clutch pedal was, if there was one, but none of the jammers I drove ever had any provision for one whatsoever. I'm told the control panel was slightly different between a stick and hydrostatic jammer, though I don't know what the differences were.

When parked, the seat, which is also the cover panel for the hydrostatic drive was usually up. It kept it from getting too hot in the sun, and too wet in the rain. It was hinged at the front and folded up against the steering wheel. On the J-1, the steering wheel was an aluminum like material that was usually painted the same colour as the rest of the jammer (though not always). There was a knob on the wheel to make turning easier and that's the only part of the wheel I ever used. It was usually also painted, but the constant handling wore the paint off quickly and polished the exposed metal to a very bright shine. If the wheel was unpainted, I remember it being a dull flat greyish metal colour. The J-4 had a black plastic wheel that sometimes got painted. The black plastic knobs on the controls for the driver were also shiny from handling. Sometimes the shafts they were attached to got a little rusty.

The table was usually unpainted and either a goldish (only one Jammer I ever drove had the "gold nose") anodized colour or a flat greyish metal colour. We didn't paint our tables because the rollers, which fit into holes in the table, were a tight fit and paint caused problems with both that and rotating them in the holes to suit the load. The entire boom was always painted (including everything under the tables).

For the J-4, the outriggers (wheels/struts) themselves were also painted, though the parts that were exposed when you extended them weren't. The outriggers were extended by dropping the boom to the ground and lifting the outriggers off the ground. The wheelbase was widened hydraulically, and lengthened manually. There was a big pin called the donkey **** that had to be pulled out of the outriggers so that you could pull the wheels forward. Often, you had to pound it out and back in using a rubber mallet. You never used a hammer because if you got caught, they fried you for doing it. So rubber marks around those pins were not uncommon. The pins were usually natural greyish metal colored. They were attached to the outriggers with lanyards to prevent their loss. The brake lines for the front wheels were flexible, and extended/retracted automatically as you extended/retracted the wheels. We never had fenders on any of the outriggers on any of the J-4 jammers I used.

Some of the J-1's had fenders. The wheels threw up a lot of rooster tails when driving through water, and both of the front wheels on a J-1 were always in front of the driver. If the jammer didn't have fenders, we drove backwards in the rain whenever possible. The jammers at my base in the desert had the fenders removed. Everywhere else had fenders on all the J-1's. On the J-1, there was a stop that kept the table at a certain height between the wheels at rest. It was part of the frame, so the table never went below that point. When we were driving any distance with ordinance on the table, the boom had to be against that stop. If the trailer was next to the jet, we didn't worry about it. But traveling from row to row or HAS to HAS with a load, the boom was always against the stop.

Both of the jammers shown in the pic posted by Mike V are hydrostatic diesels. Both have adapters on the tables. The J-4 has a fork adapter, which was typical for Mavericks.

I think the adapter on the J-1 was for missiles, but I don't really remember.

#7 Naun123

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:15 PM

I think L'Arsenal make one see HERE
I am assuming its the same but I could be wrong...quite often am!
HTH
Rich


That's a mogas stick J-4 (note the stick next to the driver). The outriggers are full back and partial out. The outrigger/body angle is wrong. The back end doesn't usually tilt backwards like that. The engine cover is very old (louvers). None of the Mogas I saw (even the ones in museums) had that cover. All the mogas I ever saw had the panel that had to be opened on top of the engine compartment. None of the J-4's had fenders. None of our seats were raised like that. They were a cushion attached to a flat steel panel that was hinged at the front. The boom looks good. They've got a fork adapter on the table, but the angle of the fork frame to the table & fork blades looks off, like pins aren't in the right holes or something. It looks like the table is tilted full back, but the fork blades are still drooping. You'd loose your load like that.

#8 Mike V

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 02:27 AM

There were two jammers: the MJ-1 and the MHU-83C/E, which was AKA MJ-4. We just called them the J-1 or J-4.

I can't see clearly, but the table on the ebay Verlinden one doesn't look right. ESCI also released a j-1, but it's an old version too.

The old jammers (both types) were mogas powered and those had a vent panel on the roof that you had to open. If QA, safety, or AGE saw you driving a mogas jammer with the panel closed, you'd get an instant article 15 at my first base. The roof line of those was flat. The diesel/JP-4/JP-8 jammers (we used to take fuel from the aircraft fuel dumps and burn it in the jammers), have a raised roof line to make room for the engine and to allow extra cooling. The Mogas motors were always the same green as the jammer by the time I got a hold of them. The diesels were yellow until some time in the mid 90's when they started turning green at my base too. The engine compartment panels of the mogas jammers were made of pretty thin sheet metal and they were usually thoroughly banged up. The diesel ones were made of a thicker metal that held up better. There was usually a lot of burned paint and rust around the exhaust of the mogas jammers. We were constantly scraping and painting. The paint on top of the diesel engine compartment weathered faster than the rest of the jammer due to the heat, but it was usually just oxidation more than anything (flat and lighter colored than the rest). There was a choke control and pull out throttle on the panel of the mogas jammers that were a real PITA. I pulled more than one completely out of the panel trying to get the thing started. Diesels only had the throttle knob you pulled out (toward the driver), but it was a better design. Both had a rubber cap covered push button starter.

The old Vietnam era jammers had standard transmissions with a gear shift beside the seat (saw one in a base museum once). My crew chief said they did away with that because you could pull wheelies really easily (especially on the J-1) and a lot of people killed themselves by rolling the jammer over on top of themselves. They were also much faster than the later jammers with the hydrostatic drives. Jammers are rear wheel drive, rear wheel steer, which makes them inherently unstable (except for the J-4 with the outriggers extended out and forward). You know how stable your car is forward and how unstable it is backward? Like that. The hydrostatic drives could be easily limited so hydrostatic jammers usually had a fairly slow top speed, with a few notable exceptions which we loved. The original mogas hydrostatic drive jammers had flat fuel tanks where the stick shift used to be. The Diesel ones had raised tanks. I never drove a stick jammer, so I don't know where the clutch pedal was, if there was one, but none of the jammers I drove ever had any provision for one whatsoever. I'm told the control panel was slightly different between a stick and hydrostatic jammer, though I don't know what the differences were.

When parked, the seat, which is also the cover panel for the hydrostatic drive was usually up. It kept it from getting too hot in the sun, and too wet in the rain. It was hinged at the front and folded up against the steering wheel. On the J-1, the steering wheel was an aluminum like material that was usually painted the same colour as the rest of the jammer (though not always). There was a knob on the wheel to make turning easier and that's the only part of the wheel I ever used. It was usually also painted, but the constant handling wore the paint off quickly and polished the exposed metal to a very bright shine. If the wheel was unpainted, I remember it being a dull flat greyish metal colour. The J-4 had a black plastic wheel that sometimes got painted. The black plastic knobs on the controls for the driver were also shiny from handling. Sometimes the shafts they were attached to got a little rusty.

The table was usually unpainted and either a goldish (only one Jammer I ever drove had the "gold nose") anodized colour or a flat greyish metal colour. We didn't paint our tables because the rollers, which fit into holes in the table, were a tight fit and paint caused problems with both that and rotating them in the holes to suit the load. The entire boom was always painted (including everything under the tables).

For the J-4, the outriggers (wheels/struts) themselves were also painted, though the parts that were exposed when you extended them weren't. The outriggers were extended by dropping the boom to the ground and lifting the outriggers off the ground. The wheelbase was widened hydraulically, and lengthened manually. There was a big pin called the donkey **** that had to be pulled out of the outriggers so that you could pull the wheels forward. Often, you had to pound it out and back in using a rubber mallet. You never used a hammer because if you got caught, they fried you for doing it. So rubber marks around those pins were not uncommon. The pins were usually natural greyish metal colored. They were attached to the outriggers with lanyards to prevent their loss. The brake lines for the front wheels were flexible, and extended/retracted automatically as you extended/retracted the wheels. We never had fenders on any of the outriggers on any of the J-4 jammers I used.

Some of the J-1's had fenders. The wheels threw up a lot of rooster tails when driving through water, and both of the front wheels on a J-1 were always in front of the driver. If the jammer didn't have fenders, we drove backwards in the rain whenever possible. The jammers at my base in the desert had the fenders removed. Everywhere else had fenders on all the J-1's. On the J-1, there was a stop that kept the table at a certain height between the wheels at rest. It was part of the frame, so the table never went below that point. When we were driving any distance with ordinance on the table, the boom had to be against that stop. If the trailer was next to the jet, we didn't worry about it. But traveling from row to row or HAS to HAS with a load, the boom was always against the stop.

Both of the jammers shown in the pic posted by Mike V are hydrostatic diesels. Both have adapters on the tables. The J-4 has a fork adapter, which was typical for Mavericks.

I think the adapter on the J-1 was for missiles, but I don't really remember.


Well done write up there. I'm no Jammer expert, but do appreciate in depth knowledge like this. Certainly clears up a lot and I'll be in touch for a possible future project.

I'll check on the fenders, as I haven't seen them on a J-4 in quite a long time; even when I was in AlDahfra with the 33rd. Sure they are on some as AGE equipment vaires from base to base.

#9 Naun123

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:49 AM

Well done write up there. I'm no Jammer expert, but do appreciate in depth knowledge like this. Certainly clears up a lot and I'll be in touch for a possible future project.

I'll check on the fenders, as I haven't seen them on a J-4 in quite a long time; even when I was in AlDahfra with the 33rd. Sure they are on some as AGE equipment vaires from base to base.


Fenders didn't exist on the J-4 anywhere I ever saw one, even in museums.

The fenders weren't installed on the J-1's we used in the desert (probably because we couldn't get the parts to replace them), but they were installed everywhere else.

#10 Naun123

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:20 AM

This guy put a good picture of the control panel.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...E-/180660528963

From left to right:
  • The rusty lever pointing down by the engine cover is the emergency brake.
  • The black knob next to that and by the steering wheel is the throttle.
  • Then you've got the steering wheel.
  • Under the steering wheel is a red light (don't remember what for) and the rubber covered push button you use to start the jammer.
  • Then you've got the gear shift for the hydrostatic drive (huge round black knob)
  • The grey thing right next to that is a light. There's a slot in the side of it so that the light shines on parts of the panel.
  • Then you've got seven levers for the boom controls. The rotating thing in the middle locks out the table controls so you don't have two people trying to control the table at the same time.

Here's a pic on the AF website with a gray MJ-4 with the outriggers out and forward, using a fork adapter to lift a conventional bomb onto another MJ-4 with the ram (for bombers like the B-1). Notice how that ram has a table? See the rollers? Those were the longer rubber ones we used. I think they were 6". Notice also how the tops of the engine compartments weather faster than the rest of the jammer? Also notice the flat seat plate (unlike that one model has).

http://www.afcent.af...F-2501B-083.jpg

On the green jammer facing you, do you see that round pulley looking thing next to the outrigger under the headlight? That was the mechanism for retracting and extending the brake lines as you retracted and extended the booms. Notice also that the jammer with the ram adapter has an extra headlight they can point it up into the bomb bay so that the driver can see where he's putting the load. Most regular jammers didn't have that third light.

Edited by Naun123, 11 August 2011 - 05:06 PM.


#11 Mike V

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:41 AM

I took those MJ-1 and J-4 pics at work, but I have and can get more detailed photos. After all, they're on the flight line day in and day out so it's not a problem.

Yes, I know about the outrigger pulley and cable. Never new about the 3rd light, but makes sense now. I only use the jammer for tanks as I'm not a weapons loader. I'm qualified to drive both jammers, but typically drive the MJ-4 when hanging 370 tanks.

#12 james424

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:10 PM

Well... That was alot more info than I expected to get but I'll be damned of it doesn't make for some good reading... I have a sneaky suspicion you guys may be or may have been armourers at some stage, ha ha.

Thanks for the info guys :thumbsup:

#13 Naun123

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 04:44 PM

I took those MJ-1 and J-4 pics at work, but I have and can get more detailed photos. After all, they're on the flight line day in and day out so it's not a problem.

Yes, I know about the outrigger pulley and cable. Never new about the 3rd light, but makes sense now. I only use the jammer for tanks as I'm not a weapons loader. I'm qualified to drive both jammers, but typically drive the MJ-4 when hanging 370 tanks.


Ahhh. Very cool. I thought you were an aftermarket company or something looking to create a Jammer kit.

Would LOVE to have that by the way. Along with good MHU-110 and MHU-141 trailers and a MB4 for towing.

Edited by Naun123, 11 August 2011 - 04:44 PM.


#14 Naun123

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 05:16 PM

Is there a pinned AGE topic somewhere? If not, why not?

Mike, if we created one, would you post your pictures there? I'll move my other stuff.

#15 Naun123

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 05:20 PM

Well... That was alot more info than I expected to get but I'll be damned of it doesn't make for some good reading... I have a sneaky suspicion you guys may be or may have been armourers at some stage, ha ha.

Thanks for the info guys :thumbsup:


:innocent: Whatever do you mean? :whistle:

#16 Mike V

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 06:26 PM

Ahhh. Very cool. I thought you were an aftermarket company or something looking to create a Jammer kit.

Would LOVE to have that by the way. Along with good MHU-110 and MHU-141 trailers and a MB4 for towing.


I am; Sierra Hotel Models

I've been looking at the AGE and support equipment around me for years now, and there's jsut not a lot of it done and what little there is is either wrong or outdated.
One of the items we just finished up in CAD, is the Flightline Halon bottle; in both 32nd and 48th. We would like to expand on that to powered and non-powered AGE.

I'd really like to produce a few versions of the USAF type Colemans as well. PSI, NMC, Entwhisel, even the older (POS) GMC Eagles. We at least have started with the modern USAF Tow bar.
It will be a while before we can get really involved in the AGE, Support Vehicles, and the Jammers, as we're backed up with a lot of projects currently. However, the more references, dimensions and technical info we gather in the meantime, will make the process move quite a bit faster when we're ready to take on these projects.

Is there a pinned AGE topic somewhere? If not, why not?

Mike, if we created one, would you post your pictures there? I'll move my other stuff.


Sure would :winkgrin: