Airfix new tool airliners

[Kev1n]

there 's not really any doubt or disagreement that the best selling kits are probably modern fighter jets in 1/72 to younger modellers,

and the same I guess in larger scales to older modellers with the money to buy them (along with a/m parts)

Biplanes havent been 'big' sellers in the same way but it's interesting to note that the current afx catalague has WW1 aircraft, plus the Gladiator

in 1/72 but not much in bigger scales - curiously no Sopwith Camel, one of the best known WW1 RAF aircraft.

Older civil stuff (pre jet-era) including general aviation also dont seem to sell particularly well

Can the perception regarding these types be changed? Depends who ytou want to sell to I guess...

[thx6667]

Can the perception regarding these types be changed? Depends who ytou want to sell to I guess...

Much, much more importantly its what people actually want to buy. You can only sell them what they want, not what you think they should have.

[Kev1n]

true but you can influence people; other wise nobody would advertise or market thier product

[thx6667]

Changing attitudes and perception to something is a major part of the battle.

Sorry Kevin but, and I hate having to reiterate the point, but you seem to be constantly coming at this from a point of view of "I have decided this would make a good product, I am going to reeducated everyone as to why they should buy it".

If that's at the core of your marketing strategy then you're coming at it from a fundamentally flawed start. Again, you have to identify is there is a market in the first place - if there isn't, and its for a good reason, then no amount of education is going to change that.

I'm not being negative, I am trying to steer you in the right direction here and the first thing is that you cannot approach this from the perspective of a modeller - as I said the history of his hobby is littered with noble failures because people tried to sell something they wanted rather than what others wanted.

true but you can influence people; other wise nobody would advertise or market thier product

Yes, but even the most basic marketeers and advertisers will know that there's no point in trying to advertise something to a market that either doesn't exist or where there is little interest. And when they do advertise something is has been extensively researched and the market specifically identified and targeted.

If I were selling the new Iron Maiden album, there's be little point me trying to advertise it in a Hip Hop magazine, no matter how noble my intentions of trying to change perceptions.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Jonathan Mock

[Kev1n]

"I have decided this would make a good product, I am going to reeducated everyone as to why they should buy it".

you cannot approach this from the perspective of a modeller - as I said the history of his hobby is littered with noble failures because people tried to sell something they wanted rather than what others wanted.

Yes, but even the most basic marketeers and advertisers will know that there's no point in trying to advertise something to a market that either doesn't exist or where there is little interest.

And when they do advertise something is has been extensively researched and the market specifically identified and targeted.

It might be worth pointing out that if I want to add extra detail and fix a model I can do it myself, and have done numerous times...most of the time actually

So it's not a question of me deciding I want it, more a question of my believing that there IS a market for better airliner kits

The hobby also has many examples of someone producing a kit because 'everybody' said they wanted it. Then nobody bought it - or at least not in enough numbers for the kit to recover it's production costs.

Markets that dont exist or have had little interest - let me give you an example;

It was said, numerous times and by all the experts, that low fare airlines would never succeed because there wasnt the demand.

In the USA the "Southwest Effect" has become a recognized phenomenon - Southwest Airlines start a service that has either never been served (because there was insufficent demand to start with)

or..

they come into a market that is underserved (because there is little demand)

the result is that SWA stimulate the demand.

The same can be said of Ryanair and Easyjet on this side of the atlantic, particularly Easyjet at Gatwick. These airlines may not be your cup of tea but they (along with the other successful ones and yes I know there have been plenty of failures as well) have created a demand for thier product where none was percieved to exist previously.

My point is essentially the same -

the modelling world has become so used to the idea that there is only one way and one way only to manufacture, sell and then build airliner kits, that the idea there might be other alternatives is anathema.

There are always alternatives....

How does one know if one doesnt try

?

[thx6667]

So it's not a question of me deciding I want it, more a question of my believing that there IS a market for better airliner kits

You alluded to the budget airline market, but that's only someone believed there was a market and identified the niche.

So your next step is to identify whether there is a market that matches your ambitions.

[Dave Fleming]

Regardless of scale however, I'll bet your airliners would sell better IF, there was a military version AND, it was included as a kit option offerred (for example) as - Vickers VC10 K2 Tanker (shown on the box) with alternative parts / markings for BOAC Super VC-10? All about presentation.

And yet history tells us that this hasn't been done in 60 years of plastic models. If it was such a sure seller, then someone would have surely picked up on that. Sure, we have had one or two - Revell's KC-10 and E-4B in 1/144th, Heller's 1/72nd airliners (707, DC-6 and Constellation) all had military and civil versions, but relatively few, and not the biggest sellers.

The classic example is the Academy Boeing Stratocruiser/KC-97 - a kit that topped the polls for years as the 'most wanted' 1/72 release, offered in both civil and military boxings, yet by all accounts a commercial disaster

[SeaVenom]

And yet history tells us that this hasn't been done in 60 years of plastic models. If it was such a sure seller, then someone would have surely picked up on that. Sure, we have had one or two - Revell's KC-10 and E-4B in 1/144th, Heller's 1/72nd airliners (707, DC-6 and Constellation) all had military and civil versions, but relatively few, and not the biggest sellers.

The classic example is the Academy Boeing Stratocruiser/KC-97 - a kit that topped the polls for years as the 'most wanted' 1/72 release, offered in both civil and military boxings, yet by all accounts a commercial disaster

How do you know that the Academy Stratocruiser was a commercial disaster?

[Dave Fleming]

How do you know that the Academy Stratocruiser was a commercial disaster?

People in the industry that I trust (that are in a position to know).

[SeaVenom]

^

read the thread seaVenom...........

Jonathan pretty much has the rub of this, but I still maintain that there is a perception problem with airliner models, adding the inaccuracies of almost

all airliner kits at 1/144 scale, which has limited the sal;es potential.

"I am not sure what comes first here, Demand or Supply.

I would think that there would be a broader market for them if they were to produce models of the sort of thing that kids fly away on their holidays on, something like a Thomson 757, Jet2 737's etc. Lord knows we need a decent 757. This way they could appeal to the 'kid' market, while entusiasts would buy the kits to use with aftermarket decals. I don't see much point in new tools for the Airbus range, Revell have that covered. Even 737's are not too badly covered."

Good point, especially regarding the 757

"I must say I would like to see Airfix to expand upon or even just to re-realse some of their civil range. The water testing in the current range unfortunatly seems to be too half hearted to really inspire the sales they will need to justify the range."

The 727 and 737-200 were the best selling airliners of all time, and because the kits were cheap, the aircraft used by just about every airliner that ever existed, there was plenty of scope for a/m decal sheets; thats why these two kits sold so well and why afx put them into this year's catalogue

and btw afx used the word classic in there I think....so afx arent afraid of doing something old and calling a classic....actually...they dont have much choice.....almost EVERYTHING made by airfix is, well....old.

as to the decal choice for the current 727 and 737, it depends on the cost of licence fees for doing the colours included, as would a new tool, new aircraft type, like the 757. I would guess afx arent liable to pay Boeing for what they already have moulds for, I would assume they paid Boeing already, but without knowing what the terms of such licences are, thats just a guess.

That said, the airline industry doesnt have a good PR atm so the right moves in the right ways might help there

"However the 737 suffers from two slightly dull 'white tube' schemes which is a shame considering the mutlitude of colours the 737 classic has been painted in."

cost probably has something to do with that

I have read it but I'm not exactly clear on what you're trying to do. Surely all people can do is give wants lists to manufacturers like Airfix? None of us on here (as far as I know) are marketing experts and Airfix themselves will do their own market research?

[SeaVenom]

People in the industry that I trust (that are in a position to know).

Ok, but we've heard people saying similar things about the Airfix 1/48 Lightning. Some people have said that it didn't sell very well and was a bit of a disaster for Airfix, but others have pointed out that it might have appeared that way because Airfix produced so many of them and a few were left sitting on the shelves.

Some of the same people also said that Airfix would never put it into production again.....even though it's supposed to be reissued soon.

[Dave Fleming]

One of the people concerned is a poster on here, if he sees this he might respond.

[thx6667]

Ok, but we've heard people saying similar things about the Airfix 1/48 Lightning. Some people have said that it didn't sell very well and was a bit of a disaster for Airfix, but others have pointed out that it might have appeared that way because Airfix produced so many of them and a few were left sitting on the shelves.

Well most of that has just been idle rumour and people putting 2 and 2 together and making marmalade. I think the story of the Lightning has been clarified before, but for those who missed it:

No they were not a disaster. They were a considerable investment for sure, and they clawed back their costs within the allotted time frame. What did happened, as happens with a lot of kits, is that after the initial surge of interest, everything plateaus out. Sometimes this hold steady for a while longer, sometimes it starts to slow year on year.

The overproduction was an entirely separate issue not related to the Lightning specifically - long story.

Some of the same people also said that Airfix would never put it into production again.....even though it's supposed to be reissued soon.

As ever its curious as to where these half-arsed rumours come from and whether people just make them up for a bit of attention.

Oh and Dave F is right about the Stratocruiser kit. And some "much requested" military aircraft subjects are not immune from being talked up and then failing to find a market.

[Albeback52]

"QUOTE (SeaVenom @ Aug 13 2011, 09:13 PM)

Ok, but we've heard people saying similar things about the Airfix 1/48 Lightning. Some people have said that it didn't sell very well and was a bit of a disaster for Airfix, but others have pointed out that it might have appeared that way because Airfix produced so many of them and a few were left sitting on the shelves.

Well most of that has just been idle rumour and people putting 2 and 2 together and making marmalade. I think the story of the Lightning has been clarified before, but for those who missed it:

No they were not a disaster. They were a considerable investment for sure, and they clawed back their costs within the allotted time frame. What did happened, as happens with a lot of kits, is that after the initial surge of interest, everything plateaus out. Sometimes this hold steady for a while longer, sometimes it starts to slow year on year.

The overproduction was an entirely separate issue not related to the Lightning specifically - long story."

"QUOTE

Some of the same people also said that Airfix would never put it into production again.....even though it's supposed to be reissued soon.

As ever its curious as to where these half-arsed rumours come from and whether people just make them up for a bit of attention.

Oh and Dave F is right about the Stratocruiser kit. And some "much requested" military aircraft subjects are not immune from being talked up and then failing to find a market. "

Well, unless it's another half arsed rumour, Hannants has the Airfix 1/48 Lightning F2A/F6 listed as a future release. I've always been a bit sceptical about the "much requested" military subjects and, kits that allegedly top the "most wanted" polls for years. Much requested & most wanted by whom exactly? Probably a minority of vocal enthusiasts.

If I had a "much requested" & "most wanted "list myself, it would include the following ( all in 1/72 scale injection moulded))

Bristol Brittania

A W Argosy

H S Andover

H P Hastings

Blackburn Beverley

Vulcan B1

Victor B1

Avro York

Avro Tudor

Avro Lincoln

Avro Shackleton ( any/all versions!)

Vickers Warwick

Vickers Varsity

Shorts Belfast

That's just for starters!!

I'd then add ;

Boeing B-47 ( A new one please!!)

Douglas DC-7

C-74 Globemaster 1

C-124 Globemaster II

C-133 Cargomaster

C-141 Starlifter

A new house to store them all!!

I realise I don't want much & I'm just dreaming!

Now, out of these, how many would stand the remotest chance of even being considered for kits?

Unfortunately, manufacturers will continue to bore us to death with endless F-16s, Spitfires, BF109s, P47s, F-18s etc etc & so forth!!. Because, unfortunately, these things sell by the bucketload !!That is the sad reality.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Albeback52

[madaboutmodels]

redo the 747-200 and 747-100

[thx6667]

Now, out of these, how many would stand the remotest chance of even being considered for kits?

Speaking personally, possibly one. The rest? All I see are shop dust magnets.

I remember Terry Marriot writing in SAM in the mid-80s that the "modelling world is crying out for an Argosy" (or something), which tended to be reinforced by AWH's attitudes in the editorials, perhaps that's where these perceptions that modelling the golden era of 1950s British aviation is a licence to print kit - some subjects maybe (Sea Vixen and Valiant for example).

[Kev1n]

Just a reminder -this topic isnt a 'wants' listing necessarily, more a way of getting opinions on certain aspects to re-issues, new tools, add-on parts etc, as far as BM members go

[richellis]

Roden do a DC-7c, in 1/144, and will be releasing a C-124 Globemaster 2 soon. Add to that a DC-6, and a Carvair ATL-98 its not all bad.

TBH, I see new companies like Roden and Zvezda taking the civvy market.

[Kev1n]

As you say Rich, new companies are doing some

Which in one way, reinforces, up to a point at least, what I am thinking

[GreenDragon]

Nobody wants civil kits? Well someone does coz here's a VC10 sold for just over 42 quid today! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I simply can't afford that sort of price and as I said earlier in the thread you just can't find any in shops. I saw a civil VC10 kit exactly once in my life on a shelf in the shop on top of the Queens Building at Heathrow Airport (1980-ish) but had no cash at the time.

Paul Harrison

[richellis]

I did a thread, asking if people could e-mail airfix to get the VC10 re-released, so drop them an e-mail and ask. I know it would be the RAF version as the moulds have been altered, but any VC10 is better than none.

While your typing that e-mail ask about a 1/72 version as well! I know a load of people have, and that can only help!

[Albeback52]

Speaking personally, possibly one. The rest? All I see are shop dust magnets.

I remember Terry Marriot writing in SAM in the mid-80s that the "modelling world is crying out for an Argosy" (or something), which tended to be reinforced by AWH's attitudes in the editorials, perhaps that's where these perceptions that modelling the golden era of 1950s British aviation is a licence to print kit - some subjects maybe (Sea Vixen and Valiant for example).

I'd stick my neck out & say two! The Vulcan and Victor!!

[marty_hopkirk]

Sorry Kevin but, and I hate having to reiterate the point, but you seem to be constantly coming at this from a point of view of "I have decided this would make a good product, I am going to reeducated everyone as to why they should buy it".

If that's at the core of your marketing strategy then you're coming at it from a fundamentally flawed start. Again, you have to identify is there is a market in the first place - if there isn't, and its for a good reason, then no amount of education is going to change that.

Correct. To go down Kevin's route is one of alienation and business failure - people don't like being told what the should buy and often or not react to the contrary.

Marty...

[thx6667]

Nobody wants civil kits? Well someone does coz here's a VC10 sold for just over 42 quid today!

All that indicates is one person prepared to pay over the odds!

[richellis]

2 people, it needs two at least to bid the price up!