Jump to content

Airfix new tool airliners


Kev1n

Recommended Posts

it might - if I do manage to have a discussion with airfix maybe they will tell me, tho the F27 is 1/72 not 1/144 so idk if that will make any difference

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For your answer you only have to look at this forum. In the military section there are 13,728 topics with 128,789 replies. In the civil bit there are 844 topics with 8927 replies. Thats a ratio of over 14:1 in favour of military. So it would be a reasonable assumption that sales of military kits far outweigh civil kits? airfix are a business that needs to make money, if you have x amount of money to invest in new tooling to generate maximum sales, only a fool would invest that in a new civil kit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it might - if I do manage to have a discussion with airfix maybe they will tell me, tho the F27 is 1/72 not 1/144 so idk if that will make any difference

I would be very surprised if they would impart sales information to someone they don't know from Adam, ringing up on spec - that is a tad naive in my opinion. Given 1/72 as a scale is more popular than 1/144 that may be telling you something.

Perhaps you could ask if the kits are available for licensing?

Marty...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

see my earlier comments about perception.....

Appears hard fact to me.

I quite like building airliner and commercial kits - however, the stark reality is Airfix are more likely to add a sprue and decals to one of their civil kits give it a military option than updating a civil option.

Marty...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.....ringing up on spec

Marty...

I wasnt planning on doing it like that as it happens :)

Appears hard fact to me.

....Airfix are more likely to add a sprue and decals to one of their civil kits give it a military option than updating a civil option.

Marty...

which does raise possibilities, altho' I'm not sure that the civvy range has too many possibilites for that, some do for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most are missing the essential point;

as Jonathan says,

"Within four years the whole range was dropped from the catalogue. What is a case of them just not being marketed properly, or that the market wasn't there?"

What they released was what they already had - no improvements, so it's not really a surprise it didnt work very well.

But what difference would improvements have made beyond enthusiast circles who in any event make up but a percentage of the overall market? Isn't the more obvious conclusion that no matter what you do - and it could be the best 1/144 airliner ever made - the general market will take it according to their requirements rather than those of the discerning enthusiast? And the general market is where the highest volume of sale is, as is evident by the number of kits that enthusiasts pass over, but which remains best sellers year in year out.

It was said a while back that these types of kits should be aimed at middle aged men with some disposable income, but in all honesty is that really a large enough market to sustain the investment? And without wishing to be dismissive of any modelling forums, we're just once slice of much larger cake. As has been pointed out, look at the percentage or posts here for airliner subjects in relation to military - if you extrapolate the membership against those actually interested in airliners, it becomes even more of slice within a slice.

I don't wish to sound harsh Kev because I know you're coming at this with good intent, but thus far its been more a Field of Dreams "if you make if, they will come" rather than identifying what the market is missing and why they would want to buy the kind of product you're advocating.

In all honesty you cannot begin to market an idea for product when the market itself hasn't been properly researched and in that regard some models at a show or a dozen guys on a modelling forum doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't wish to sound harsh Kev because I know you're coming at this with good intent, but thus far its been more a Field of Dreams

Harsh but true.

It needs to be thought through with business acumen, rather than seeing it as a charity. Kit manufacturers are in this business for one one reason and one reason only and that reason is not serving modelling community.

Marty...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't wish to sound harsh Kev because I know you're coming at this with good intent, but thus far its been more a Field of Dreams "if you make if, they will come" rather than identifying what the market is missing and why they would want to buy the kind of product you're advocating.

In all honesty you cannot begin to market an idea for product when the market itself hasn't been properly researched and in that regard some models at a show or a dozen guys on a modelling forum doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

Indentifying what the market is missing and why people would want to buy is what I am doing...this discussion (and it's so far been worth having) is only a small part of that, along with the rest of the research I'm doing, and it's not limited to a dozen guys on a modelling forum :)

I dont have any problem with you coming up with the negatives, but please dont assume this is something that I'm doing based just on BM - it isnt.

I will carry on making my point tho'...part of which is that, the responses so far on here (as a sample) show the 'traditional' view of airliner modelling is the one that has influenced airliner kit production and is part of the reason why airliner kit sales have been at the lower end of things.

Lets throw another aspect into this - Hasagawa kits are mostly accepted as the best airliner kits there are. But....they have never dislodged 1/144 scale as the primary scale for airliner modelling.

Why?

Because in the UK, Europe and the USA, the three biggest markets, people say things like "They're too small in that scale, now if they had done in 1/144...."

So why didnt Has do them in 1/144?

Because the primary market for Hasagawa is Japan, not elsewhere (I've said this before) and Japan is a heavily populuted and geographically small country, so people live in small houses and flats.

Which means a 1/72 scale DC8 (as used by Japan Airlines) would be huge. It is anyway but completely impractical in a small house or flat. To a more limited degree, so is 1/144.

At least it is in Japan....

We have a not too dissimilar problem here, which is why afx chose 1/144.

Changing attitudes and perception to something is a major part of the battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D:lol::lol: Albeback52-

"I won't build airliners until they're in a proper scale - like 1/72. This is not an unreasonable size for most airliners - at least up to the size of a Boeing 707 ( already done by Heller), DC-8, VC-10, Comet & a whole host of other types. Otherwise , I won't entertain them. I just don't like the smaller scales"

there's part of my point right there - a proper scale???

sorry but I dont buy that. 1/72 for the VC10, DC8 and 707....these are physically huge, far too big for the mass market.

Give airfix (way way back) credit for recognizing that. Personally I would LOVE to have them in 1/72nd but where would I put them?

and how much would they cost?

The problem that so many modellers have is that they can be very one-eyed about scale.

(no offence intended Albeback)

There is no such thing as a 'proper scale'....if you have lots of money and a very big house then sure you can be as self-restricted as you like,

and if you want all these in 1/72 then go get the vacform kits from Neil Gaunt - he did most of them

Out of curiosity Albeback, did you?

No offence taken Kevin :D Quite the reverse! I'm pleased you responded in such a constructive way. As for a "proper" scale? :lol: Well, I define "proper" in this context. Let's just call it a preferred scale. Your point however is very reasonable and, I fully admit to being "one eyed" in this respect. I don't necessarily agree that size is an issue ! (no smutty comments please!!) :lol: How do you define "too big for the mass market"? We already have a whole series of KC-135 variants, A 1/72 Boeing 707 (Heller) and, 2 variants of the E-3D AWACS. A Boeing 737, Airbus A320/321/319 or, DC-9 series would ( for example) be roughly the same size as a C-130 in 1/72 Scale. Is the C-130 too big for the mass market? Is a 1/72 scale B-52 too big for the mass market? Clearly, if they sell, then the answer is no! Revell will shortly issue a 1/72 Airbus A400. That is a seriously big aeroplane and, again, is it too big for the mass market in 1/72 scale? Clearly, in this case, Revell does not think so

Cost is a tricky one to answer. Airfix would have to pitch the cost low enough to attract sales but high enough to make a decent profit. Modellers seem happy to pay (for example) £135 for Tamiya 1/32 Spitfires or, £100+ for Trumpeter 1/32 Mig -23s or £120+ for Airfix 1/24 Mosquito kits so, I guess if a modeller wants something badly enough, they will pay for it! Space of course IS an issue and, of course, I don't have lots of money OR a big house but, somewhow I manage!! :lol:

I'm aware of the vac form kits. I don't do vac forms. I don't like them & never have. This opinion is based on experience as,I have actually built several vac forms over the years! These include ;

Rareplanes Mc Donnell F3H Demon

Rareplanes Avro Vulcan

Maintrack Models Hawker P1121 & SR-177.

These were all acknowledged to be high quality among the genre but, just not for me. The only reason I built them was because at the time there was no alternative. I persevered & got good results but, quite frankly I considered building them to be too much of a chore. I think part of my problem is that I am fundamentally lazy!! :lol:

Although I disagree with you on the above points, I totally endorse what you are trying to achieve (even if I won't entertain 1/144!! ) That's my choice and, probably my loss as well! ). When all's said & done,we both enjoy the same hobby so, let's just agree to differ. I suspect that neither of us will change our opinions here!!

I genuinely hope that you will achieve something here but, as I said in my earlier post, I think the reality will be somewhat disappointing

Allan

ps - if you're ever in Edinburgh, I'd be delighted to argue the toss over a few :drink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A 1/72 airliner might not be too big, but a collection of 1/72 airliners is a different story ! The biggest plane I have on my shelves is a 1/72 B-1, that is only slightly smaller than a VC-10 and i also have a 1/72 B-52, still in the box waiting for me to move to a bigger house... yes, these are big but are a small part of my "collection": if I'm a USAF enthusiast I can have my B-1 on the shelf surrounded by F-15s and F-16s. If I'm an airliner enthusiast, a collection of 1/72 airliners in BA colours is sure great, but it would require a new house (or an extension...) for many people. Personally I've been tempted by some 1/72 vacform airliners, but they'd be right there with the B-52 by now.

Cost wise I believe that a 1/72 airliner would not be particularly expensive, as while the size is big the number of parts can be made pretty low. Unless we want every seat with separate armrests and so on... :lol:

Interestingly, I can see some similarities in Kevin's idea of changing attitude with what happened to 1/144 military aircrafts kits: until a few years ago these were seen as simplified kits, not really worth much. Then sweet and platz in japan and revell in europe started to make some real gems and today we can see some impressive 1/144 models at shows and there are more and more enthusiasts building these kits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^

I rest my case

almost :)

:lol:

My attitude to 1/144 won't change!! ( that's just me being obstinate!!) :lol: In my entire modelling life, I have strayed from the Dark Side only twice! The Revell A380 and, the Otaki C-5A Galaxy. Even I think they'd be a tad excessive in the proper 1//72 scale. (Yes, I know the C-5 isn't an airliner but, I'm sure a civil version was planned?). Regardless of scale however, I'll bet your airliners would sell better IF, there was a military version AND, it was included as a kit option offerred (for example) as - Vickers VC10 K2 Tanker (shown on the box) with alternative parts / markings for BOAC Super VC-10? All about presentation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....Interestingly, I can see some similarities in Kevin's idea of changing attitude with what happened to 1/144 military aircrafts kits: until a few years ago these were seen as simplified kits, not really worth much. Then sweet and platz in japan and revell in europe started to make some real gems and today we can see some impressive 1/144 models at shows and there are more and more enthusiasts building these kits.

that ^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:lol:

....I have strayed from the Dark Side only twice!.....

....Regardless of scale however, I'll bet your airliners would sell better IF, there was a military version AND, it was included as a kit option offerred (for example) as - Vickers VC10 K2 Tanker (shown on the box) with alternative parts / markings for BOAC Super VC-10?

All about presentation.

The force will be with you if you come into the light more often....

I agree with the principle here, and there are some that have military apps, as you say, the VC10 is a classic example and I especially agree with your comment about presentation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:lol:

My attitude to 1/144 won't change!! ( that's just me being obstinate!!) :lol: In my entire modelling life, I have strayed from the Dark Side only twice! The Revell A380 and, the Otaki C-5A Galaxy. Even I think they'd be a tad excessive in the proper 1//72 scale. (Yes, I know the C-5 isn't an airliner but, I'm sure a civil version was planned?). Regardless of scale however, I'll bet your airliners would sell better IF, there was a military version AND, it was included as a kit option offerred (for example) as - Vickers VC10 K2 Tanker (shown on the box) with alternative parts / markings for BOAC Super VC-10? All about presentation.

There were both cargo and passenger civil C-5's designed called the L-500, able to carry 1,000 passengers apparently.

Paul Harrison

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't go to court on that basis.

Marty...

:):):):......ok

tho' giorgio still makes a valid point

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I'd like to see a 1.72 De Havilland DH91 Albatross for these reasons;

Big but not huge -Lancaster size? Or maybe a bit smaller.

Virtually unique in modelling. Air Craft Models did a vac form one in 1.72 which is hard to find and pricey -also vac forms arn't eveyone's cup of tea. FRSIN do a 1.144 (expensive and small!)

Can be painted in classic silver dope colours or camoflaged as a couple were painted during the war. (So could appeal to those who 'don't do airliners').

Fits in well with other De Havilland types especially as Airfix have done a number over the years.

Nice looking plane!

That's about it really. Would anyone else buy one?

On the subject of Classic airliners (civil?) would anyone be up for a 1.24 Tiger Moth? Lots of scope for aftermarket decals as there are so many colour schemes. There's still lots about flying -probably everyone who likes planes has seen one. It's one of the few chances of flying in a classic biplane so could make a nice gift for someone who has one of those birthday trips in one. Again it would be unique to modelling -and it would go well with Airfix's Mossie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I'd like to see a 1.72 De Havilland DH91 Albatross for these reasons;

Big but not huge -Lancaster size? Or maybe a bit smaller.

Virtually unique in modelling. Air Craft Models did a vac form one in 1.72 which is hard to find and pricey -also vac forms arn't eveyone's cup of tea. FRSIN do a 1.144 (expensive and small!)

Can be painted in classic silver dope colours or camoflaged as a couple were painted during the war. (So could appeal to those who 'don't do airliners').

Fits in well with other De Havilland types especially as Airfix have done a number over the years.

Nice looking plane!

That's about it really. Would anyone else buy one?

On the subject of Classic airliners (civil?) would anyone be up for a 1.24 Tiger Moth? Lots of scope for aftermarket decals as there are so many colour schemes. There's still lots about flying -probably everyone who likes planes has seen one. It's one of the few chances of flying in a classic biplane so could make a nice gift for someone who has one of those birthday trips in one. Again it would be unique to modelling -and it would go well with Airfix's Mossie.

An interesting question. I suspect however that the answer might be "no". Probably because of 2 key words - biplane and rigging! Regardless of the type's pedigree, I wonder if it really has the sort of mass appeal that will generate sales. Personally, I'd certainly have a bash at one!! I built and rigged the Matchbox kit many years ago. Actually quite enjoyed it! Anything for relief from the tedium of endless F-16s, Spitfires & Mustangs!!. The HP 42 class would certainly make impressive models in 1/72 scale but, again, I suspect that" biplanerigging-itis "would set in & put a lot of people off!

Edited by Albeback52
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...