keefr22 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 The box of my old FROG Valiant says on it...'modelled from official plans' shame same didn't go for Airfix!! Sounds like Airfix should have borrowed your Frog kit to use as a template...!! K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Not a bad idea Keef!..............wouldn't have hurt would it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Well Dennis has been doing a lot more work on the accuracy of the kit and his findings are interesting to say the least. Seems that the model is way off beam in many areas, latest being the chord of the wings and sweep angle. I also feel that the main wheels are a little on the small side too but I don't know for sure yet. Overall the thing looks like a Valiant when built up but you have to squint your eyes a bit, (much the same technique used for Trumpeters offerings!), Had high hopes for this one but like the big TSR2 ..no cigar this time... Having said that most people wont care too much, as long as it looks like a Valiant and that's fair enough really... Melchie ... Edited August 20, 2011 by general melchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David H Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Damn. i feel like my joy has been stolen. Well, at least i have my HP Victor and Vulcan at home, waiting for me. Dejected, david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michou Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Well Dennis has been doing a lot more work on the accuracy of the kit and his findings are interesting to say the least. Seems that the model is way off beam in many areas, latest being the chord of the wings and sweep angle. I also feel that the main wheels are a little on the small side too but I don't know for sure yet. Overall the thing looks like a Valiant when built up but you have to squint your eyes a bit, (much the same technique used for Trumpeters offerings!), Had high hopes for this one but like the big TSR2 ..no cigar this time...Having said that most people wont care too much, as long as it looks like a Valiant and that's fair enough really...Melchie ... Ref. wing chord. I don't know where you measure it but probably the wing leading and trailing edges are extended to the fuselage centre line and that is defined as "root". I am not too certain how to post images on this site but let's see if this works. It's from the AP.Mike Edited March 1, 2013 by Michou 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miduppergunner Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well Dennis has been doing a lot more work on the accuracy of the kit and his findings are interesting to say the least. Seems that the model is way off beam in many areas, latest being the chord of the wings and sweep angle. I also feel that the main wheels are a little on the small side too but I don't know for sure yet. Overall the thing looks like a Valiant when built up but you have to squint your eyes a bit, (much the same technique used for Trumpeters offerings!), Had high hopes for this one but like the big TSR2 ..no cigar this time... Having said that most people wont care too much, as long as it looks like a Valiant and that's fair enough really... Melchie ... Well I for one am very happy - unbuildable - not worth the space. Good ho! Yippee and all that - can bin mine and will not have to worry about those flaps. Actually my dears I don't give a damn. But what I would like to know is how and why? That plan with the Warpaint series - is that the culprit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Mike, I have a few GA drawings now so it'll be interesting to see how the kit measures up overall, just to get some idea of how things pan out...thanks. midupper, quite right, now that I've almost finished the thing must admit it looks pretty nice once built up. It certainly isn't unbuildable, etc and as you say most wont give a damn, I'll be building a few more of the blighters just modding them as I go along which is what I personally enjoy doing rather than just building everything oob. The Richard Caruana plan in the Warpaint book appears to be inaccurate and it seems that the kit follows the errors found in the drawings, tail fin cap, rudder line,main gear door shape, possibly wing chord etc so it would seem that Airfix possibly used these as source material for reference but no way is that definite, it would be interesting if someone could confirm or otherwise. However Airfix seem to have altered the nose to the correct length, (as opposed to those in the drawing which are too short), but who knows......... so, tally-ho, yippety-dip and zing zang spillip! ..Looking forward to bullying off for the final chukka !!.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Gripping stuff this thread. The V is not my cup of tea but its really interesting seeing you guys discuss it and watching the Gerneralisamos build. If anyone wants some pics then Rich Ellis has uploaded more to the thread in the walkaround section. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71291 Julien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 First of all General just want to say fantastic work Sir! Always enjoy your work and an In-Progress thread of this quality is compulsive viewing regardless of an interest in the machine being modelled. As an idle thought on the accuracy issues being juxtapositioned with the idea of Airfix researchers being seen at the museum example; could it be they had noticed a discrepancy between the Caruana drawing and photographs of the nose area so took measurements but didn't go any further back along the airframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miduppergunner Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 And I am certainly going to continue with mine. I do not intend to use the inaccuracies in the kit as an excuse not to build it! However I cannot deny that I will not feel a little comforted by the fact that any inaccuracies that I introduce in the course of my own scratch-building etc. will not otherwise detract from a masterpiece of accuracy. But I am still irritable over the inaccuracies that have occurred. I know the Caruana plans generally are unreliable. I appreciate that there can be occasions when photos and intelligent guess work may be the only option - but that is rare? In the case of the Valiant there are GA drawings available and of course one that can be measured. Hence why then have the inaccuracies been produced? I would not have thought that it would have been any more difficult for say Airfix to produce an accurate outline correctly than incorrectly - if they have accurate drawings from which to work in the fist place. And if I had paid someone to produce drawings for me - from which to make a model kit - I think I am entitled to rely upon them to produce a reasonably reliable set of drawings! Has Mr Caruana ever been asked what is the problem. I feel he ought to be given a chance to defend himself. He does seem to appear in many journals and other publications. Similarly are Airfix aware that they are also being misled, possibly? I suppose this ought to be somewhere else - so can I leave it to a MOD to deal please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Thanks fellas, Col, Not too sure what happened really, though the front end certainly seems more accurate than the rest...maybe their tape measure wasn't long enough!. It would be nice to hear what Airfix say themselves, I'll have an ask around. Midupper, I certainly don't want to pour scorn on poor old Mr Caruana as I'm sure he does the best he can with what he has, so we'll leave that one be, but it seems very strange that the same errors crop up in both the drawings and the model, one wonders if maybe BOTH used the same source material. Anyhoo whatever the case it shouldn't stop anyone building one of these and just plain enjoy having one in the collection, (it's a case of the whole being more accurate than the sum of the parts and all that), .I think we all expect the highest standard of accuracy in these days of Google,detailed walkarounds, sites like this one etc and feel let down a bit when they don't reach that, especially as these models aren't exactly cheap! . It just seems odd that with so much data available things can't be a bit nearer the mark than is often the case, the Nimrod being another example. Amodel, and others can do it after all, ( and look at the size of their stuff!!), Back to the build and I've just finished adding the tail vortex gennies, (in the correct position and size) and fitting the undercarriage, just got the small wingtip nav lights to add and that should be that for this one, she'll be on parade asap and you can make your own minds up, Cheers all and Happy Xmas , Melchie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David H Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Well, i for one look forward to seeing the finished model! As for the dimensional and outline errors, i'm trying to put that all in perspective. david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 As for the dimensional and outline errors, i'm trying to put that all in perspective.Fair enough Dave!! but make sure you keep a proper sense of proportion.... Always a bit more to do, just finished scratching and fitting the nose and main wheel door retraction actuator arms, steering sevos and windscreen wipers.........so I'll call it done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 "It's a good kit, not one of Airfix's best but a good kit. Â As built from the box it will look like a Valiant, Â when worked on with a modicum of tools and effort, it will look like a Valiant even more, when some modelling sophisticate decides to "go to town", it will be a stunner." I've just sent that off to our General in a fairly long email and I mean it - it is a good kit - flawed but still a good kit. Over this past weekend, I have had a good opportunity to take a very close look at it - and by close - I mean close !. I have already listed some of the "faults" that I have found, most of which, no doubt, will be fixed by the after market industry. For the fuselage, the nose needs lifting and the tail needs lowering. Thats simpler than it sounds - thin razor saw, some 1/8th plastic card, a smidgeon of filler and some glue. The Wings?. A story in themselves. Suffice to say that apart from the root chord being slightly out thus throwing the trailing edge slightly out - they are good. I'll put more details up later but in the mean time can I say that after all the hours that I spent picking it apart, I can now fully understand the difficulties and headaches that the guys at Airfix must have gone through in designing the kit in the first place. All I can say is "Well done". "Well done" for having the balls to bring out what is a relatively little known British Aeroplane and "Well done" for doing so well with so little to work on as Ill explain later. I'll put some photos up later showing how I propose to improve the kit. As a trained Engineer, I dislike complications and the improvements will be simple. Bit like me really. DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Well said Dennis, it is a good kit that just needs tweaking for those who like me enjoy such things.I'm planning on incorporating Dennis's mods in the next build and see just how much things can be improved, but I get the feeling that the overall effect wont be so dramatic as to make folks want to hack the thing up with a razor saw. Look forward to his update ! And yes all power to Airfix for producing the model in the first place, lets hope for more...........Hastings, Argosy, Belfast anyone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 ...........Hastings, Argosy, Belfast anyone!! Yes please....!!! (& a Twin Pioneer, Varsity & Valetta as well!!) K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miduppergunner Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Oh gosh - did not intend to down Mr Caruana - I don't know - as you say- what he has to contend with - hence might be nice if he could explain. And Dennis - yes - quite agree with all you say - it is far easier to be the critic than the artist. Producing an model kit - of anything - has problems and technical difficulties - that certainly I do not understand or appreciate. So - yes I am chuffed that a Valiant has appeared - it in fact, with the assistance of our General - and say Dennis who has produced some gen. for me. I have regenerated an interest in modelling - the flaps - frustrating on one way -are proving fun. It will also be fun making a stand - anyone know where I can get a tiny swivel joint. If anyone decides to take a measure to my finished model - and thereby be likely to damage it a severe malleting may well be delivered. Just back to Mr Caruana for a moment - in my defence because I have always had to get it right so to speak I tend to be a bit short with those who do not. Maybe on plans etc. there should be an endorsement that the accuracy cannot be guaranteed - for whatever reason. You see like in so many books - some authors do not do their own research and will crib from other peoples work. If the original work has since been found wrong due to say the release of more data subsequently, then a genuine "honest" mistake will become unnecessarily perpetuated simply because of indolence. A "disclaimer" on say plans or diagrams would help make others beware that they should check thoroughly. Oh dear I have gone on - maybe I should go to another forum where they are all pious? I would like a Viking - in BEA markings please - the first aeroplane in which I flew - from Northolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev67 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Airfix can only bring out the Hastings after I have finished building my Vac form one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 anyone know where I can get a tiny swivel joint. If you don't mind sacrificing them, the swivel joints on a pair of Helping Hands can be fairly easily converted. Plus you get a nice heavy base to help keep your finished kit the right way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Airfix can only bring out the Hastings after I have finished building my Vac form one That's when I hope they'll bring out a Varsity too...!! K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcanicity Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Always a bit more to do, just finished scratching and fitting the nose and main wheel door retraction actuator arms, steering sevos and windscreen wipers.........so I'll call it done! ...Pictures?!! Or have I missed the RFI?! Interesting about the fuselage errors, but I'm afraid I won't be taking a razor saw to mine: can't afford to get it wrong and buy another one!! Comparing against pictures, I can sort of see some of the issues, particularly the overly curved fuselage spine, and it'll be interesting to see others (or you!) try and tackle them in the future. I'm still trying to decided if I want to cut down the u/c doors and lower the nosewheel; I can just forsee it upsetting the attitude of the aircraft and it not sitting straight on the mainwheels! As for Mr. Airfix, I'm holding out for a Dh.106 Comet in 1:72nd, with optional parts for Comet 1, Comet C.2 and Comet 4/4C. Go on, you know it'll sell...! (I'm imagining here a beautiful RAF Comet in bare metal/white with blue cheatlines and Transport Command titling) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miduppergunner Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 If you don't mind sacrificing them, the swivel joints on a pair of Helping Hands can be fairly easily converted. Plus you get a nice heavy base to help keep your finished kit the right way up. Thanks Seán - in fact I have one that I very rarely use - as to the base and the stand/pylon or whatever yo ,ay call eh bit that supports the model I was thinking of perspex - I have some that is a kind of translucent black and of course the clear. Hmm... exciting! Now have to convince the Duchess that it is worthy of display along with her ornamentia. But long time yet to ingratiate myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general melchett Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks chaps, the build is done and over on rfi. David, you're dead right, if Rob, sorry no photos at the end, but I'll put some together for the end of this thread to show what I've done..(or haven't done!) . The reduction in height of the nose wheel is needed so that if you cut the doors to the corect depth the thing won't sit on tip toe but everything sat nicely once done. The main wheels need more flatteneing anyway so it's easy toline everything up when doing this. (this is assuming that you've bunged enough weight into the nose mind!). A comet would be nice, especially an TC mark 4!, though I really like the idea of a Varsity Keef... Cheers everyone and thanks for the interest, Melchie....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) I would like a Viking - in BEA markings please - the first aeroplane in which I flew - from Northolt. Have you tried this? http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/port...misc/viking.htm General - your work continues to inspire! Trevor Edited August 24, 2011 by Max Headroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Hi General. Brilliant piece of work, and I am sure an inspiration to us all. I remember these aircraft well, saw them at Farnborough in the late 50s and then in the early 60s when I was serving in the RAF. I know this is a little late in the build for you, but possibly for a future version. In your post #42 you were complaining about fitting the jet pipes (part 8D) into their housing (34/35D) and then having to mask them again. What I have done is cut parts 8D in two, half way along at the circular mould line and place the front sections in the channels in parts 34/35D. When the wing is complete and you have finished painting, slide the remaining parts of 8D, ready painted into the rear of the housings. I must say that after seeing what you have done with yours, mine is going along a treat. Thank you. Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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