There is no such thing as matt varnish.

[stevehnz]

As a brush painter some of this is maybe a bit superfluous but I've had reasonable results from Humbrol Mattcote, Matt varnish & Future/Klear with Tamiya acrylic matt base. I recently tried some Vallejo matt varnish & was disappointed after what I'd heard about it but it may have been me using a too small brush, it seemed a bit patchy. FWIW, I reckon that in the smaller scales especially, I'm a 1/72er, it is a mistake to be both too matt & too glossy. Either extreme seems to be too much of a good thing so I'm happy with a shiny satin for a gloss finish & a dullish satin for a matt finish. Works for me anyway.

Steve.

[AnonymousFO98]

Matting agents with smaller average particle size do not give a quality matting effect, but they produce smooth paint films. In contrast, products with larger particle sizes are stronger in matting efficiency but the paint film surface is not so smooth.

Matting additives with large particles show a tendency to build up separation and sedimentation in clear paint systems during storing time. Untreated silicas and fillers, in particular, need to be combined with anti-settling agent or fine particle size waxes to avoid these phenomena. Fine particle size waxes and easy to disperse hydrophobic pyrogenic silicas are recommendable, as they have a similar refractive index to these additives.

The equal refractive index of silica, wax and organic matting to resin systems which are commonly used in paints are one reason for their popularity. Substrates like wood, foils, and leather (natural & artificial) must be coated with transparent coating systems. It is of prime importance to select an application that has little influence on transparency, and also to choose a resin and matting agent which have similar ‘refractometers’, as this also improves the transparency of the system. The amount of matting agent added to the paint film also impacts upon transparency. More efficient matting agents require lower dosing levels and therefore provide better transparency.

http://www.specialchem4coatings.com/tc/matting/index.aspx

[dr_gn]

Matt enamels are matt Dr Gn

Huh?

[Siggi]

Hi been reading this and following with interest.

Just out of interest - exactly why do you want a totally dead flatt matt finish?

My experience is that most things which are 'matt' do actually have a wee bit of a sheen anyway - certainly most aircraft finishes feature this.

Jonners

I agree with you on paint but rust is 100% matt when it's dry, and there's a lot of rust on my tanks.

[stan]

Nice

Did you scrape samples from his model for analysis!?

Felt like it

Couple of years later the same person approached a friend of mine at the same show and asked how he

got a rather rare science fiction kit.

My friend thought for a while then said very bluntly " **** off" and he did.

Sometimes you come across some strange attitudes at shows ,glad to say its not everyone but i have met a few .

[AnonymousFO98]

Matt enamels have no discernable sheen yet do not look black.

Unless it is Hu33 of course

[dr_gn]

Matt enamels have no discernable sheen yet do not look black.

Unless it is Hu33 of course

In my experience there's just as much variation in the sheen of matt colours as there is in clear matt varnish.

[pigsty]

Some confusion appears to be creeping into this thread. No-one, I suspect, is genuinely asking for a surface that reflects no light whatsoever. As others have pointed out, that’s the theoretical definition of black and it doesn’t exist in real life. All visible objects have to reflect some light in order to be seen and to have some colour. Objects have colour because they absorb some wavelengths of light while reflecting others. You know all this, I’m sure.

What’s being discussed isn’t light absorption, it’s roughness. All coloured surfaces reflect light. If they reflect it all in one direction, they appear gloss; if they scatter it in all directions as they reflect it, they appear matt. And if they scatter it only a little, they appear satin. So what’s actually being discussed is a very rough surface that will scatter light as widely as possible. Obviously this has to be in-scale roughness - the effect comes not from being able to scrape skin off your knuckles, but from the particles that form the surface being aligned completely randomly, as well as each individual one having as little tendency as possible to reflect light directionally.

Gloss surfaces are far smoother, and that’s why they reflect light directionally. The media that pigment particles are carried in almost all have some glossing effect because of the way they self-level after application and so smooth the surface. The easiest way to avoid that is to use volatile media that evaporate and leave the particles behind. You can get a very, very matt finish that way. But this is easy because you’re using opaque paint. Varnish needs to be transparent, so that you can still see what you’ve varnished, but transparent surfaces tend to be glossy, so the trick (as walrus’ post no.52 says) is to include a matting agent that roughs up the finish without blocking the transparency. That means one with a refractive index that’s as close as possible to the carrying medium.

So the real question is, which available varnishes have this quality - and, with time, retain it? Does anyone know if the separation / sedimentation problem noted in walrus’ post is one that can be solved by shaking or stirring?

By the way, walrus is wrong in one respect. Matt black isn’t black either - but gloss black is. Weird, no?

[AnonymousFO98]

That is getting in to Wittgensteinian discourse Sean

The point about roughness is important afaik

Matt enamels in my experience are very matt with no discernable sheen.

Acrylics are another matter which is no doubt due to the polymers in the medium.

Pigmentation is another variable but that shouldn't apply to varnish.

No amount of shaking and stirring seems to improve the finish, though I can't beat (pun intended) Siggi's mechanical whisking.

[dr_gn]

Course it depends a lot as to what degree the base colour is matt, satin or gloss too...

[Siggi]

I recall reading something many years ago that explained why airbrushing gave a better colour than hand-brushing, it's to do with the coloured particles being laid flat by hand-brushing. I guess the same applies to a varnish.

[keefr22]

What’s being discussed isn’t light absorption, it’s roughness. All coloured surfaces reflect light. If they reflect it all in one direction, they appear gloss; if they scatter it in all directions as they reflect it, they appear matt......

That may well be the science, but in my experience a good matt varnish will give a really smooth final finish coat, without any further attention (by that I mean, personally, I cannot get a really smooth gloss finish straight from the airbrush - it always needs further cutting back & polishing, whereas I almost without fail get a really smooth matt coat straight from spraying, either using acrylic or enamel. They just aren't that 'matt'!! )

But I presume you're really talking about the 'microscopic' level.....

K

[Paul-H]

Hi Siggi

Just had a play with one of my flat cotes

Whats you oppinion on this result, it looks flat to me but my expectations may be a lot lower than yours.

Paul

[dr_gn]

Whats you oppinion on this result

Definitely a tank turret.

[Paul-H]

And there was me thinking it was a hat

[Siggi]

Semi-satin with a very bad case of the white mist. Wow.

[Paul-H]

just as I thought, there is no pleasing you is there. thanks for confirming it.

Do you have to be so rude to someone who was after all taking the time to help, I shall not bother again.

Bye

Edited July 2, 2011 by Paul-H

[Siggi]

just as I thought, there is no pleasing you is there. thanks for confirming it.

Do you have to be so rude to someone who was after all taking the time to help, I shall not bother again.

Bye

Wut?! Rude? I answered your question and the "wow" was aimed at the amount of white misting. There was nothing malign intended at all.

But anyway, the Xtracolor XDFF arrived this morning and I've just tested it on the old banger, with a brush...WOH! 100% matt, as matt (indistinguishable) from the matt paint next to it. Dried in minutes after being worked in hard with the brush (to get as thin a coat as possible). And a hell of a lot in the bottle for less than two sterlings.

I thank you gentlemen for all your various input, it has been an interesting voyage of discovery and very little money wasted overall. With a totally satisfactory outcome. Suh-weet!

[dr_gn]

Wut?! Rude? I answered your question and the "wow" was aimed at the amount of white misting. There was nothing malign intended at all.

But anyway, the Xtracolor XDFF arrived this morning and I've just tested it on the old banger, with a brush...WOH! 100% matt, as matt (indistinguishable) from the matt paint next to it. Dried in minutes after being worked in hard with the brush (to get as thin a coat as possible). And a hell of a lot in the bottle for less than two sterlings.

I thank you gentlemen for all your various input, it has been an interesting voyage of discovery and very little money wasted overall. With a totally satisfactory outcome. Suh-weet!

Be ready to be disappointed next time you use it...or the time after next. Worked fine for the Bf109, but was hopeless on the Tempest.

I'm at the stage with matt varnish where I do a test coat on a scrap model before spraying the real thing. It's so variable that I find it's best to make a call on which to use 'on the day'.

[AnonymousAA74]

The trick with XDFF is never to really 'wet' the model when you spray. Cover in small areas and then blow air for a pass or two. I've done many, many models with this stuff, and never been let down once.

[dr_gn]

The trick with XDFF is never to really 'wet' the model when you spray. Cover in small areas and then blow air for a pass or two. I've done many, many models with this stuff, and never been let down once.

Yeah, I think bad, or at least inconsistent thinning might have played a part in my problems too (possibly with all the varnishes).

At least with an aerosol you just have to shake the can - even I seem to be able to manage that!

[AnonymousFO98]

Have had the same problem with Humbrol rattle cans tbh

They work really well to start with, but the matting effect dropped off with subsequent use.

Vigorous shaking seemed all to no avail and always warm the can too.

[Siggi]

I went over an entire shiny StuG with the XDFF and a brush last night and it's transformed it from a 3-year eyesore into a joy to behold. I thinned the stuff with some white spirits from my brush-cleaning jar, it even got some Mig pigment mixed up in it, still did it's job perfectly.

[Derek A]

On 28/06/2011 at 7:47 PM, Mike said:

Try Alclad's new Flat varnish, which is a lacquer finish, and here's your proof:

That's an impressive finish!  Does it have the same high octane smell as the paints?

[Mike]

I can't remember, as that's now 6 years ago, and I was about to sample the bottle olfactorily  but the thing is so tightly closed, I can't open it with my meagre grip I don't remember it being too pungent, but then I don't remember much at times