Deep Sky Blue* on the Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transport

[Daniel Cox]

Hi All,

This post may be of interest to some who are not already aware of the image below that shows an example of Deep Sky Blue* being used on a Liberator aircraft.

Shown below are Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transports as captured by Howard Hollem during October of 1942 at the Consolidated Aircraft Corporation plant, Fort Worth, Texas. The second closest C-87 from the viewer features Deep Sky Blue* under surfaces that also include an application of Deep Sky Blue* to the undercarriage as well.

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

According to Dana Bell the application of Azure Blue was for RAF camouflage schemes he also stated that:

The exception on Liberators could be found on a few aircraft used by Halpro (later the 376th BG). Originally destined for the UK, they had OD uppers with Deep Sky Blue undersides. The Brits were to add their own second color to the uppers, considering the OD close enough to Dark Green.

Although the above images have been sourced from a hi-res tif file of a scanned 4x5 Kodachrome Slide it should be noted that they have undergone conversion before posting here. As evidenced below in the following image (that has been converted to the color profile of sRGB), that shows a Save for Web Conversion from a ProPhoto 16 bit tif file to a sRGB 8 bit jpg file. Despite ProPhoto having a larger colour gamut than that found using sRGB, I feel sRGB is preferable in this instance when viewed on this forum by the average punter who is perhaps using an uncalibrated screen and doesn't need to print the images etc.

Therefore viewing results may vary.

For larger 1800px x 1440px 8 bit sRGB profiled images of what is shown above please go to: https://picasaweb.google.com/studioCox/USAAF#

Cheers,

Daniel.

P.S. The Library of Congress 4x5 kodachrome slide in this instance isn't in the best of condition.

* Corrected to Deep Sky Blue from Azure Blue as kindly indicated by John.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Daniel Cox

[John]

Deep Sky Blue isn't Azure Blue. To be honest, on my monitor the finish looks like standard OD/NG.

John

[thx6667]

Looks like OD/NG to me as well!

[Daniel Cox]

Deep Sky Blue isn't Azure Blue. To be honest, on my monitor the finish looks like standard OD/NG.

John

Hi John,

Thanks for the correction regarding Deep Sky Blue and Azure Blue on rereading Dana Bell I concur you are right. As to that aircraft having Neutral Gray under surfaces I include the following image assembled with various crops from the same image for further comparison.

Source: Library of Congress

It is not Neutral Gray.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Daniel Cox

[occa]

Looks like OD/NG to me as well!

Consider that the sky lacks blue in those pics so in reality is is even bluer ...

Here's a photo of RAF Liberator Is with supposedly the same deep blue:

Edited May 9, 2011 by occa

[daz greenwood]

It could be what became known as PRU Blue, which IIRC was the colour early RAF B-17's were in on the underside. But then I could be hopelessly wrong lol

[Daniel Cox]

Here's a photo of RAF Liberator Is with supposedly the same deep blue:

Thanks Occa for sharing that picture, it is appreciated.

Further discussion on the application of Deep Sky Blue can be found in the following;

Fortress Mk IIAs, colors, ASW scheme, delivery on Britmodeller

B-17s in Coastal Colours revisited on Hyperscale

RAF Fortress Camouflage on American Aircraft for the RAF

Air Ministry Order on RAF Commands

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Daniel Cox

[woody37]

This is going to be a long thread !!!

[Steven Eisenman]

If it is going to be a long thread, so be it. :shithappens:

In a simple conversion to B&W in PS, that blue shows a very low contrast compared to an OD and NG aircraft.

Most interesting. Any one have info on possible C-87 orders?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[Daniel Cox]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for posting those that last pic showing the C-87 41-11680 that is apparently wearing Olive Drab over Neutral Gray is also interesting since it shows a scalloped colour demarcation despite being close in manufacture to 41-11674 as shown above.

Here is some more that may be of interest;

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Below is a another image captured by Howard Hollem at Fort Worth during October of 1942. That shows another C-87 that has Deep Sky Blue under surfaces as seen beneath the wing of the foreground aircraft, in contrast to the other C-87 in the background that wears a Neutral Gray under surface.

Source: Library of Congress

Here is a crop of the image above that is intended to show the difference between Deep Sky Blue compared to Neutral Gray.

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Source: Library of Congress

Again for larger 1800px x 1440px 8 bit sRGB and Gray Gamma 2.2 profiled images of what is shown above please go to: https://picasaweb.google.com/studioCox/USAAF#

Cheers,

Daniel.

[John]

*On my monitor* - that's not Deep Sky. It looks like a lighter bluish grey, or greyish blue, to me. I suspect you are misunderstanding how dark DS is. It's actually quite close to the modern BS381c colour Azure, round about FS595 35052. If the undersides were DS, I would expect less contrast with the national marking.

John

Edited May 10, 2011 by John

[occa]

Yeah I too had the thought it could be the US version of Azure Blue but the DuPont DSB color chip is not far off on how the undersides appear on the two color photos posted on this thread:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nxN_vjldtng/SohX...00-h/DUPONT.jpg

Nick Millman has collected hints that (supposedly the DuPont) Deep Sky Blue was used on early Fortresses ...

http://amair4raf.blogspot.com/2009/04/raf-...camouflage.html

Edited May 10, 2011 by occa

[Andrew Jones]

I hope nobody is confusing US Deep Sky Blue with RAF Deep Sky, or we are going to be here a long time.

[Daniel Cox]

*On my monitor* - that's not Deep Sky. It looks like a lighter bluish grey, or greyish blue, to me. I suspect you are misunderstanding how dark DS is. It's actually quite close to the modern BS381c colour Azure, round about FS595 35052. If the undersides were DS, I would expect less contrast with the national marking.

John

Hi John,

I am not misunderstanding anything, I know little about the colours used by United States aircraft manufacturers during that period so in the absence of my own examination of primary source documents of the same. I rely on secondary sources like that written by Dana Bell for example:

As noted below, the Azure Blue was for RAF camouflage schemes - if the US took over an aircraft in that camouflage, you should expect a two-tone pattern on the uppers.

Considering the statement above by Mr. Bell that Liberators with Azure Blue under surfaces would have "two-tone pattern on the uppers" whereas again according to Mr. Bell "Liberators could be found on a few aircraft used by Halpro (later the 376th BG). Originally destined for the UK, they had OD uppers with Deep Sky Blue undersides." I presume following on from these statements that since the C-87 aircraft that have blue under surfaces as shown above, also do not have two tone upper surfaces that they are likely to have Deep Sky Blue under surfaces.

Again thank-you for correcting me when i initially suggested that the blue seen was Azure Blue.

Whether those C-87's with blue under surfaces were painted to resemble either Dark Mediterranean Blue, Deep Sky Blue, Deep Sky, Light Mediterranean Blue, Azure Blue and or P.R.U. Blue to the Du Pont Color Standards I do not know it is highly likely to be one of them. One thing is certain however the under surfaces I have pointed out are blue and not grey and in the absence of further evidence I accept these images may show an application of Deep Sky Blue on some Liberator aircraft as suggested by Dana Bell.

As to *On my monitor" I have to admit I am reluctant to ascribe specific FS numbers etc as suggested by you especially when according to your monitor you saw grey when blue was shown. This is not to suggest you didn't see grey, I accept that you did and appreciate your thoughts and am happy to hear more you may be right regarding seeing Azure. I use and have used various colour calibration devices over the years and recommend both the Spyder3 and x-rite i1 devices for calibration purposes.

Since discussions of colour cause such angst amongst us all (I say this as a fellow protagonist in all things colour), black and white images always makes for an easier discussion. I feel it can't hurt to post the following, for those interested in such things as worthy reading on the subject of colour and old photographs etc. That said the resources referenced below will not eliminate any arguments with respect to colour, they will I am sure however increase an understanding of colour with respect to our discussions.

The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures, Preservation Publishing Company, 1993

The renowned Wilhelm Imaging Research has made their book by Henry Wilhelm and Carol Brower available as a free download this is an extraordinary resource on the subject of colour prints, negatives and slides. If you really want to understand how images age you should take the time to become familiar with this exceptional work.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html

Please note that Wilhelm Imaging Research offers much more than that book for example here is one of their articles on print permanence covering the HP Designjet Z3100 one of the printer types I own;

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_HP_..._2007_12_28.pdf

Luminous Landscapes

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/

As to a forum that is equivalent to Britmodeller on the subject it is well worth visiting Michael Reichmann’s Luminous Landscapes site. The Forums regarding Colour Management, Digital Image Processing and Printers, Papers and Inks can be very useful resources.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/

Adobe Color Management

This is another forum that I recommend as a great resource for those who have an interest in colour management.

http://forums.adobe.com/community/design_d...olor_management

Real World Color Management Second Edition, Peachpit Press, 2004

Although this book is now a few years old I highly recommend this publication from the Late Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting as an extraordinary resource for accurate colour output.

http://www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/index.html

Further reading of interest can be found at the following sites listed below;

http://www.graphicsatlas.org/

https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/

http://gawainweaver.com/images/uploads/Wea...atin_Silver.pdf

https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/webfm_send/302

http://gawainweaver.com/images/uploads/Wea...enic_prepub.pdf

http://www.conservation-wiki.com/index.php...aphic_Materials

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Nick Millman]

MAP Deep Sky as measured is Munsell 2.5 PB 2.7/6.4. There is no close FS 595B equivalent, 15052 being somewhat further away @ 5.25. Deep Sky is slightly duller and greyer. As mentioned in the linked blog post Dupont Deep Sky Blue was 71-065 and Dupont Deep Sky was 71-052. Both are significantly darker than the colour appearing in the photographs. But the Deep Sky Blue paint supposed to be applied to Fortress II was Fullers and I do not have any values for examples of that.

BSI 381c 104 Azure (blue) is reported to be 4.7 PB 3.1/6.1 but comparing the L*a*b* values is further from Deep Sky than 15052 @ 6.57. It is slightly greyer although a visual comparison does suggest a similarity.

Very interesting photos and analysis, Daniel, thanks for posting them.

[Steven Eisenman]

Regardless of what name you want to give it (call it Baby Blue), Tthat was not a color in the USAAF pallet of colors for aircraft. The problem is that I see a need to assign British names and specs to a color that we know nothing about. We don't know what paint they used. But clearly, there seems to be a significant difference in tone (color) between a blue bottom and a neutral gray bottom.

As for that C-87 S/N (4)111680, I found that it was produced on the assembly line in front of (4)111681 a B-24D that was released by the USAAF and sent to the RAF as a Liberator III (one of the group in RAF s/n FK425 - FK245, FL906-FL995, or a GR. V FK214 - FK245). It would appear to be produced long before the C-87 / C.Mk. VII.

I wish we could see the s/n on those aircraft with the blue belly. According to one reference, the C-87 / Lib. C.Mk. VII has USAAF s/n in the range (4)4-39219 to -39226, -39236, 39237, -39248 to -39261 / EW611 to EW634 [by "to" I believe the source means through].

I appreciate this information as the new Eduard online magazine takes the position that the B-24D "Blue Streak/ Liberandos" got it name from the RAF blue bottom. But the pictures indicate no low contrast and Dana Bell indicates that those RAF bound Liberators retained by the USAAF neither got a second color on top nor had the underside repainted.

[Ed Russell]

On my Spyder3 colour corrected monitor, the underside colour of the Liberators from both Daniel's and occa's pictures looks somewhere like the dark blue used on the Britmodeller pages and certainly not NG.

I think the post quoted below is a significant pointer to the fact that discussions of colour may be even more subjective than we think they are if diferent monitors are that far apart.

To be honest, on my monitor the finish looks like standard OD/NG.

[Chuck1945]

Slight variation on the color discussion, this time the grey. I have a color chip that is supposedly NG from a booklet done by J. Frank Dial on US WWII camouflage back in the 1960s and it shows NG to be a very dark grey, no blue tints, but a real neutral grey and next to OD, very little contrast - almost like the B&W rendition Steven did of the C-87 w/bluish undersides. The grey in these photos looks much too light for this NG, in fact it looks like the 'lighter' version of NG that often appears in B&W photos.

[John]

Hi John,

I am not misunderstanding anything, I know little about the colours used by United States aircraft manufacturers during that period so in the absence of my own examination of primary source documents of the same. I rely on secondary sources like that written by Dana Bell for example:

As noted below, the Azure Blue was for RAF camouflage schemes - if the US took over an aircraft in that camouflage, you should expect a two-tone pattern on the uppers.

Considering the statement above by Mr. Bell that Liberators with Azure Blue under surfaces would have "two-tone pattern on the uppers" whereas again according to Mr. Bell "Liberators could be found on a few aircraft used by Halpro (later the 376th BG). Originally destined for the UK, they had OD uppers with Deep Sky Blue undersides." I presume following on from these statements that since the C-87 aircraft that have blue under surfaces as shown above, also do not have two tone upper surfaces that they are likely to have Deep Sky Blue under surfaces.

Again thank-you for correcting me when i initially suggested that the blue seen was Azure Blue.

Whether those C-87's with blue under surfaces were painted to resemble either Dark Mediterranean Blue, Deep Sky Blue, Deep Sky, Light Mediterranean Blue, Azure Blue and or P.R.U. Blue to the Du Pont Color Standards I do not know it is highly likely to be one of them. One thing is certain however the under surfaces I have pointed out are blue and not grey and in the absence of further evidence I accept these images may show an application of Deep Sky Blue on some Liberator aircraft as suggested by Dana Bell.

As to *On my monitor" I have to admit I am reluctant to ascribe specific FS numbers etc as suggested by you especially when according to your monitor you saw grey when blue was shown. This is not to suggest you didn't see grey, I accept that you did and appreciate your thoughts and am happy to hear more you may be right regarding seeing Azure. I use and have used various colour calibration devices over the years and recommend both the Spyder3 and x-rite i1 devices for calibration purposes.

<snip>

Cheers,

Daniel.

I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning. I’m not ascribing any value at all to the colours in the photographs, at least not beyond the colloquial. The point I was making is that “real” Deep Sky is a dark blue in the region of, but not identical to, BS381c Azure or FS595 15052.

I’ve no idea what the colour actually is, but I do feel safe in stating that it isn’t AM Deep Sky or any closely related shade. Looking at it on a different monitor, it still looks like a medium blue grey to me. Acknowledging all the caveats about monitors, prints, variations in the real paint, the lighting of the scene etc, it doesn’t look like either Deep Sky or Azure Blue. Beyond that, I don’t know what it is. *On this monitor* the colour in the hangar photo looks more like USN Intermediate Blue than anything else.

John

[Steven Eisenman]

Slight variation on the color discussion, this time the grey. I have a color chip that is supposedly NG from a booklet done by J. Frank Dial on US WWII camouflage back in the 1960s and it shows NG to be a very dark grey, no blue tints, but a real neutral grey and next to OD, very little contrast - almost like the B&W rendition Steven did of the C-87 w/bluish undersides. The grey in these photos looks much too light for this NG, in fact it looks like the 'lighter' version of NG that often appears in B&W photos.

There was no "lighter version" there was only Neutral Gray in all its various mutations. Just as the underside demarcation line varied, straight, wavy higher or lower, the color NG could vary from company to company. As Nic pointed out in his excellent article on 02, there may have been a chip, but we have to work with an average. There are pictures of P-51s where the OD and NG are virtually indistinguishable, and there are B-24s that appear to be quite light on the bottom. I bet if you had identical pictures of a B-24 from each of the three major producers, and their various sub-facilities, no two would be a match for color. And as they aged the differences in color would be amazing.

[Steven Eisenman]

I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning. I’m not ascribing any value at all to the colours in the photographs, at least not beyond the colloquial. The point I was making is that “real” Deep Sky is a dark blue in the region of, but not identical to, BS381c Azure or FS595 15052.

I’ve no idea what the colour actually is, but I do feel safe in stating that it isn’t AM Deep Sky or any closely related shade. Looking at it on a different monitor, it still looks like a medium blue grey to me. Acknowledging all the caveats about monitors, prints, variations in the real paint, the lighting of the scene etc, it doesn’t look like either Deep Sky or Azure Blue. Beyond that, I don’t know what it is. *On this monitor* the colour in the hangar photo looks more like USN Intermediate Blue than anything else.

John

On my Apple iMac 24 inch, nothing like USN Intermediate blue, which appears lighter and grayer. Those C-87 undersides appear deeper, darker and tending to a "purple" component (Nic could describe it better). But there are variations, and it was not a British made paint. Just a US attempt to match, be close, or such.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[Daniel Cox]

Hi Steven,

I have identified the 'blue' C-87 in my first post on this subject from another image captured by Howard Hollem from the same location during October 1942. The C-87 is 41-11657 when I obtain a high resolution file of this image I will share it here for further interest. Unfortunately the 'blue' C-87 in the factory picture will remain unidentified since all available colour and b&w images reveal little more with respect to that aircraft.

I have also found an airborne b&w image of 41-11706 wearing Olive Drab over Neutral Grey in; Moyes, Philip. J. R. Consolidated B-24 Liberator: Aerodata No. 11, Visual Art Press, Oxford, 1979, p 219. Where the caption states:

this example (41-11706) being from a batch produced at Fort Worth concurrently with B-24Ds.

I was not aware of the article in Eduard's publication and will take a look at it later, thanks for pointing it out.

Hi Chuck,

Regarding the appearance of Neutral Gray all I can suggest with certainty is it will appear differently depending on every variable within the colour event All the images posted in this thread by me are of aircraft produced around the same time at the same location using mostly the same paint exempting the 'blue' planes. Yet Neutral Gray which as I understand it was just Neutral Gray and not various types of the same appears differently in all for the reasons above as further evidenced below.

With respect to the appearance of Neutral Gray the variables within the chip alone are enumerate even if all were fresh and produced yesterday. Then add the same countless variables that occur when using an image to compare the chip against. Plus the variables inherent within the observer in combination with the lighting conditions etc.

All I can say is I wouldn't trust a b&w image or colour for that matter to tell the whole truth regarding colour ever.

Having said that I would like to add that old colour chips, documents and pictures captured on old film stock individually or collectively should never be discounted as valuable resources whenever available. For they offer us the opportunity to have a greater understanding of the colour of generations past, than we will ever be able to enjoy with respect to more distant eras.

All Public Domain Images captured by Howard Hollem all sourced from the Library of Congress.

I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning. I’m not ascribing any value at all to the colours in the photographs, at least not beyond the colloquial. The point I was making is that “real” Deep Sky is a dark blue in the region of, but not identical to, BS381c Azure or FS595 15052.

Hi John,

Yes got it, I had thought you were perhaps suggesting that (this would be so much easier sharing a beer in person), as to the determination of what colour the 'blue' is like you I don't know. Although I consider it highly unlikely it is Intermediate Blue and likewise consider it unlikely to be a colour made to meet the requirements of either the USAAC or latterly the USAAF. This leads to the fact it is likely to be a colour made to meet British requirements as to what that colour is I do not know, it is however probably similar to one of those as referenced by the Du Pont Color Standards.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Steven Eisenman]

Nice pic of NG on a B-24. Howard Hollem Ft. Worth

[Dave Fleming]

Shown below are Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transports as captured by Howard Hollem during October of 1942 at the Consolidated Aircraft Corporation plant, Fort Worth, Texas. The second closest C-87 from the viewer features Deep Sky Blue* under surfaces that also include an application of Deep Sky Blue* to the undercarriage as well.

Source: Library of Congress

The difference betwen the two aircraft is interesting - not sure what either color is, as the nearest looks light for NG (Which can take on a blue cast in some pictures). Interesting.

My thoughts are it's the colour the US knew as Deep Sky Blue (which appeared on the bottom of some Fortresses) which isn't the same as MAP Deep Sky - which you can see in the centre here:

DSC_4843 by Davef68, on Flickr

[Giorgio N]

The blue under that Liberator reminds me of the instructions for the Matchbox A-20G kit, that suggested using humbrol 96 for the lower surfaces, something that as a 13 year old boy with no idea about neutral grey I duly did. The final result looked very close to that seen on that liberator !