turnerdad Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Can anyone advise me as to what colour the Bf 109E-4 pit should be? From my references and searches it could be either RLM 66 (H416), or RLM 02 (H70)for most of the cockpit, with black instrument panel and various boxes, or a mix of 66/02 and black. The machine I am building is a BoB machine. I'm not too concerned with small details as such as my refs will cover them, but there does seem to be a big difference between various builds, restorations and museum "preserved" examples etc. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 This might help - Luftwaffe painting orders. An E-4 should be RLM66 according to this. http://www.swannysmodels.com/Painting.html thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnerdad Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 Great link Mike, thanks very much. I've pasted that into Word, and will be invaluable in the future. Once again, thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 This might help - Luftwaffe painting orders. An E-4 should be RLM66 according to this.http://www.swannysmodels.com/Painting.html thanks Mike Very brave,that website,to make an unequivocal statement like that. The original post has pretty much answered the question. Now all you need is a decent piccy of the intended victim. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Hi Turnerdad, In accordance with research carried out to date by my colleagues and I and further supported by photographs and the information contained within copies of the relevant RLM & Messerschmitt documentation in our files the basic interior colour for the cockpit areas for the entire 109E, F-0 and the earliest F-1 series is noted as being 02 with the instrument panel in 66 although both the greys 41 and 02 for instrument panels is also mentioned in some documentary references to early E-1s. However, while it is true that some E models did feature cockpits finished entirely in 66, this was due to which particular sub-contractor (e.g. Arado, Fieseler etc) built the airframe (regardless of sub-type) and not because of any directive, theatre of operation etc. Incidentally, have you decided which markings (pilot, Staffel etc) you will be finishing it in? HTH Dave Edited April 1, 2011 by tango98 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowmk9 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Well that seems pretty conclusive! Some 109's also had the upper section of their cockpits overpainted in RLM66 to darken its appearance, didn't they? Wouldn't apply for a BoB aircraft though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnerdad Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 Hi Turnerdad,In accordance with research carried out to date by my colleagues and I and further supported by photographs and the information contained within copies of the relevant RLM & Messerschmitt documentation in our files the basic interior colour for the cockpit areas for the entire 109E, F-0 and the earliest F-1 series is noted as being 02 with the instrument panel in 66 although both the greys 41 and 02 for instrument panels is also mentioned in some documentary references to early E-1s. However, while it is true that some E models did feature cockpits finished entirely in 66, this was due to which particular sub-contractor (e.g. Arado, Fiesler etc) built the airframe (regardless of sub-type) and not because of any directive, theatre of operation etc. HTH Dave Thanks, I think that is how I will paint it, 02 pit with 66 instrument panel and a few boxes. The beautifully restored Canadian 109 seems to be 66 with black instrument panel and various boxes, but the general concensus seems to be the former, and I know there would have been discrepancies anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfires Forever Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 O2 for Me 109E's were all 02, then with the F model and above RLM 66. that's my story and I'm sticking with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Museum restorations can never really be relied upon to be 100% accurate so care is needed if relying solely on photos of restored aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 IIRC the Hendon Sabre has the wrong wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 IIRC the Hendon Sabre has the wrong wing. As I remember the Hendon 109E had a G model canopy at one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 IIRC the Hendon Sabre has the wrong wing. It's got the right wing - just not the wing it would've had when wearing those markings in RAF service Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Regarding the Hendon Bf 109E I think you'll find that the heavy framed canopy comes from one of the 109 fuselage mock-ups used for the Battle of Britain film. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Regarding the Hendon Bf 109E I think you'll find that the heavy framed canopy comes from one of the 109 fuselage mock-ups used for the Battle of Britain film.Cheers Dave or was that from a later G model.... Seem to remember that being thrown about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Hi Steven, I've just checked the history of the Hendon 109E: the original canopy went missing circa 41/42 at Hucknall, later fitted with an Erla-haube and later again with the original heavy frame canopy from Black 6. Circa 1975 this was returned to Black 6 and was replaced by one from one of the B of B film cockpit 'props'. Interestingly, not all of the airframe is original as the starboard wing was originally fitted to W.Nr. 1418, the port is from another downed but unidentified 109E, part of the tail assembly is from W.Nr.6313 and the main upper cowling is from W.Nr. 1653. The original makers plate identified it as an E-1 und E-3 which indicates that it was a re-cycled E-1 airframe brought up to E-3 standards (the work being undertaken by Erla at Leipzig). It was modified as a Jabo in the field circa Sept/Oct 1940 and served briefly with the 6./JG52 before being passed to the 2./JG 51 with whom it remained until forced down at Manston by F/Lt George Christie of 66 Sqn on 27 November. Cheers Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) Hi Steven,I've just checked the history of the Hendon 109E: the original canopy went missing circa 41/42 at Hucknall, later fitted with an Erla-haube and later again with the original heavy frame canopy from Black 6. Circa 1975 this was returned to Black 6 and was replaced by one from one of the B of B film cockpit 'props'. Interestingly, not all of the airframe is original as the starboard wing was originally fitted to W.Nr. 1418, the port is from another downed but unidentified 109E, part of the tail assembly is from W.Nr.6313 and the main upper cowling is from W.Nr. 1653. The original makers plate identified it as an E-1 und E-3 which indicates that it was a re-cycled E-1 airframe brought up to E-3 standards (the work being undertaken by Erla at Leipzig). It was modified as a Jabo in the field circa Sept/Oct 1940 and served briefly with the 6./JG52 before being passed to the 2./JG 51 with whom it remained until forced down at Manston by F/Lt George Christie of 66 Sqn on 27 November. Cheers Dave Which all goes to show why we shouldn't take museum pieces as being 100% accurate. Fascinating history you've posted Dave, thanks for filling in the gaps in my foggy memory. As an aside, I wonder why the film makers made a copy of a later style canopy? Did they just copy a Bouchon canopy, which effectively is a G model canopy? Edited April 3, 2011 by Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 There are many period photos of E4/7 cockpits in 66. There are some with E4/7 cockpit in 02. I believe that the general rule is 66 for E4/7, but if an aircraft was an E1 that was damaged and refurbished to E4/7 standard, then it would appear to be an E4/7 with an 02 cockpit. Also, as mentioned above, different subcontractors may have used different colours for the cockpit, depending on what paint stocks they had on hand as this was a transition period. Personally, I paint the cockpits of E3 and older 02, and E4 and newer 66 - which I have done on the 14 109's in my display case Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Doug, Sorry but I have to disagree with you regarding the E-4/7 series as the E-7 was nothing more than an E-4 plumbed to carry a drop tank and thus the norm was for an 02 cockpit. Yes, there are instances of E-4/7s with 66 finished cockpits but these are in the minority in period photos where the cockpit interior is visible. Incidentally, a number of ‘E-7s’ were already entering service before the end of October 1940 and although plumbed for and actively carrying drop tanks were still simply referred to as E-4s in not only unit strength returns and manufacturer’s documents but also by the manufacturers plate on the aircraft. As I mentioned in my earlier post, a 66 finished cockpit on an E was more relevant to the sub-contractor who built the original airframe than to any order or directive regarding protective finishes. 02 remained the standard cockpit finish applied up to very early in the production of the F-2 when Messerschmitt introduced the application of the 74/75/76 colours on the production line along with 66 cockpits during the spring of 1941. However, you are correct in your observation that some recycled E airframes received 66 as a cockpit finish but again, this was more generally dependant upon which sub-contractor carried out the work. This is evident from photos of recycled E airframes converted to the Jabo role for service on the Eastern front in 1941/42 and just to confuse the issue even more, even included a number issued from Messerschmitt in October 1941. I also can’t fully agree with you about your suggestion of an early ‘transition period’ as this did not really occur as such until circa the spring of 1941. As explained above regarding early F-2 production (which began in January 1942), the camo & colour changes for the 109F had actually began some seven months in advance of the promulgation of L.Dv.521/1 issued on 8 Nov 1941 which officially specified (for fighters) to switch to the use of 66 in cockpit areas and 74/75/76 camouflage. Cheers Dave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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