Tropical Sea Scheme on the 'Beest?

[Dave Homewood]

I believe that the aircraft I just posted, K4167, was one of the aircraft that was on and survived the Endau raid.

Don's second logbook begins on the 1st of November 1942 so well after his move to Ceylon in July 1941 (he left Singapore on 17 July 41, and joined No. 273 Squadron at Ceylon on 30 July 1941). However he's still with No. 273 Squadron at Ceylon at the beginning of this logbook and they still had at least one operational Vildebeest at this time, K4160. he flew five Dawn Patrols in that Vilde through November, as well as many flights in the squadron's Fulmars and Lysander, and then in December 1942 he moved on to join No. 217 Squadron at Minneriya, Ceylon, flying Hudsons.

So not a lot to add about the interesting No. 273 Squadron with its mixed bag of aircraft (they flew Seafox, Swordfish, Fulmars, Vildebeests and Lysanders in Don's time there, usually concurrently).

This seems to be the only Vildebeest in Don's second logbook. Would K4160 possibly have been the last active Vildebeest in the RAF?

[keefr22]

What a lovely photo!

K

[MilneBay]

I went to see Don MacKenzie today - he's the wartime RNZAF pilot that had the two photos that I scanned of the Vildebeests dropping torpedoes that you've all found very fascinating. The good news is I discovered he had one more shot! It was omly a photocopy this time ratehr than a nice print but it has scanned up nicely considering. This time the aircraft is K4167, again from No. 36 Squadron by the look of it.

And a closer look at the aircraft...

Now the bad news. The reason I went to see him is I had hoped to photograph Don's Flying Logbooks and get all the details of his days in Singapore and Ceylon on the Vildebeest. However when i arrived he told me the sad tail that when he was posted from India to the UK one of his kitbags never arrived. He waited at the depot for 24 hours but it had disappeared, and inside it of course was his first Flying Logbook. Bugger! He had however packed his second logbook in another bag and he still has it, which includes some Ceylon flying, and his time in India and the UK. So i did get to photograph that. But sadly the Singapore days and the bulk of his Ceylon flying are lost to history. I will go through the photos and post anything of interest that I manage to find.

To me the contrasts suggest that looks like Tropical Land Scheme. DG/LE.

[mhaselden]

Absolutely beautiful picture, Dave. Thank you for sharing.

Interesting that we can clearly see the underwing roundel but that the outer blue appears lighter in tone to the underside colour. Do we think the undersides were black?

[stevehnz]

Absolutely beautiful picture, Dave. Thank you for sharing.

Interesting that we can clearly see the underwing roundel but that the outer blue appears lighter in tone to the underside colour. Do we think the undersides were black?

The reflection in the water in the larger picture certainly does nothing to dispel that idea. Being so low, there would maybe(?) be some reflection off the water onto the underside to make the shadow appear less but I can see nothing of that in this series of pictures.

Steve.

[Dave Homewood]

I think the code lettering on this latest shot is interesting in that it's different in layout from the other two aircraft. Only one letter by the looks of it. What colour were the code letters, red?

[mhaselden]

I think the code lettering on this latest shot is interesting in that it's different in layout from the other two aircraft. Only one letter by the looks of it. What colour were the code letters, red?

Dave,

I suspect the aircraft was carrying the squadron ID letters OE, it's just that the E has blended into the background camouflage tone in this monochrome pic. The code letters were almost certainly (I did say "almost") Medium Sea Grey.

Again, thanks for sharing this beautiful pic. Absolutely stunning!!!!

Cheers,

Mark

[Dave Fleming]

Absolutely beautiful picture, Dave. Thank you for sharing.

Interesting that we can clearly see the underwing roundel but that the outer blue appears lighter in tone to the underside colour. Do we think the undersides were black?

That would certainly be correct for a bomber aircraft of the period.

[mhaselden]

'Fraid it's time to put the cat amongst the pigeons. I have a small collection of wartime Japanese aviation magazines which contain photos of captured allied aircraft. Lo and behold, I managed to find a pic of a wrecked Vildebeest:

Note that this aircraft appears to have light-toned undersides and not black. I think I'm also seeing a dark area at the upper wing centre-section (anti-glare perhaps, although it could just be different lighting due to the change in dihedral in that area?).

I also checked out a wonderful little Japanese book about captured Allied aircraft (it can be obtained from Arawasi, see Captured Allied Aircraft Book) which has another Vildebeest pic that I'm not posting 'cos I don't want a bunch of Japanese copyright lawyers hounding me! The Arawasi book pic shows a wrecked 36 Sqn Vildebeest on p.49 which also clearly has light-toned underside with no underwing roundels (and, interestingly, no spats on the wheels). This photo does not show the dark centre-section to the upper wing.

If my assessment of Dave Homewood's recent pic is correct, then at some point the black undersides and roundels were overpainted with a light colour (Sky Blue, perhaps?). I wonder whether this was done as a hurried activity prior to the Endau Raid since, prior to this point, the Vildebeests had operated almost exclusively at night for which black undersides would be appropriate.

Incidentally, the Arawasi book is an absolute "must" if you are interested in this sort of topic. The only let-down, aside from the lack of English captions, is it's small format and the poor quality of the image printing. I really wish they'd produce a version on better quality paper, in a larger format so the amazing photographs can be seen more clearly.

Interesting food for thought, anyway...

Cheers,

Mark

Edited April 6, 2011 by mhaselden

[Dave Homewood]

Hmm, well this info you present Mark tallies with what No. 36 Squadron pilot Ron Reid told me the other day, that when he got to the squadron in late 1941 the aircraft were overall light grey and didn't have any squadron emblems on the tail. Maybe they were indeed painted light grey all over by then?

[mhaselden]

Hmm, well this info you present Mark tallies with what No. 36 Squadron pilot Ron Reid told me the other day, that when he got to the squadron in late 1941 the aircraft were overall light grey and didn't have any squadron emblems on the tail. Maybe they were indeed painted light grey all over by then?

Dave,

I don't think we're looking at a single overall colour. None of the Japanese pics are particularly clear but they do seem to show that the upper surfaces still wore 2-colour camouflage. On the Arawasi pic, the fin flash is just visible which tallies with the marking changes we've already identified (ie When first camouflaged, the Vildebeests wore no fin flash but had the unit crest on the fin and Type A fuselage roundels. Later, the fin was overpainted with a large flash and a yellow surround was added to the fuselage roundel).

Kind regards,

Mark

[Ed Russell]

A fortuitous discovery while filing was this photograph from FlyPast May 2009.

It appears to show uppersurfaces in two somewhat contrasting colours, very dark undersurfaces, particlarly along the low demarcation line on the rear fuselage - also the spats are consistent with bright sunlight on Night - , fin flashes over the entire fin, a light coloured rectangle on the lower wing which may well just be sunlight, light coloured codes (MSG?) NK-F and NK-K, presumably Yellow surrounds to fuselage roundels.

[Dave Homewood]

So, if the excellent photo you posted in your last post Ed has No. 100 Squadron aircrfat with what looks like NK or NR squadron codes, then how accurate is this artist's impression with the codes being RA?

You don't happen to have a scan of the other side of that page do you, you can see some nice looking three-view drawings coming through behind the artist's impression. I'd love some decent three-views of the Vilde or Vincent, especially with section drawings.

[Ed Russell]

So, if the excellent photo you posted in your last post Ed has No. 100 Squadron aircrfat with what looks like NK or NR squadron codes, then how accurate is this artist's impression with the codes being RA?

I think these were the previous codes for 100 Sqn. I'm not sure how accurate the painting is - maybe the artist was instructed to paint a Vildebeest in the LT4 scheme of Red Sand and Light Sea Green with "these" codes and serials - there you go! - no photo required!

I believe in the decal and profile trade these are known as "reconstructions" - make what you will of that.

Edit - speaking of profiles, you can have a bit each way on the rafweb site

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark036A.htm

36 sqn in Compensated Land Temperate

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark100.htm

100 in TSS

PM sent re other things.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Ed Russell

[Nick Millman]

FWIW James McEwan's 'The Remorseless Road' (Airlife 1997) has a painting by Lynn Williams on the cover showing a Vildebeest in what appears to be Temperate Land with (interestingly now) sky blue under surfaces. Tenuous I know, but I can't imagine the author had no say in how the cover was depicted. There are photos of 36 and 100 Sqn Vildebeests in the book, including one at Singapore "just before hostilities" but all appear to be in pre-war silver dope finish.

[Dave Fleming]

The disappearance of the black undersides, yellow surround to the roundels and fin flash would be entirely in accordance with the relevant AMOsas far as I can see when comapring an aircraft in late 39/early 40 to one in late 41/early 42.

[mhaselden]

The disappearance of the black undersides, yellow surround to the roundels and fin flash would be entirely in accordance with the relevant AMOsas far as I can see when comapring an aircraft in late 39/early 40 to one in late 41/early 42.

Hi Dave,

Would the AMOs specify the presence or absence of underwing roundels? Also, it seems AHQFE didn't pay much attention to AMOs when it came to choosing camo schemes for their aircraft. Note that apart from 27 Sqn all the Blenheim Is retained black undersides.

Cheers,

Mark

Edited April 14, 2011 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

FWIW James McEwan's 'The Remorseless Road' (Airlife 1997) has a painting by Lynn Williams on the cover showing a Vildebeest in what appears to be Temperate Land with (interestingly now) sky blue under surfaces. Tenuous I know, but I can't imagine the author had no say in how the cover was depicted. There are photos of 36 and 100 Sqn Vildebeests in the book, including one at Singapore "just before hostilities" but all appear to be in pre-war silver dope finish.

Hi Nick,

I, too, went ferreting around for my copy of Remorseless Road but my conclusions regarding upper surface colours were much less clear. I couldn't make up my mind if it was supposed to be TLS, TSS or some other scheme. I presumed artistic licence had been applied to fudge the colours a tad.

KR

Mark

[mhaselden]

I think these were the previous codes for 100 Sqn. I'm not sure how accurate the painting is - maybe the artist was instructed to paint a Vildebeest in the LT4 scheme of Red Sand and Light Sea Green with "these" codes and serials - there you go! - no photo required!

I believe in the decal and profile trade these are known as "reconstructions" - make what you will of that.

Edit - speaking of profiles, you can have a bit each way on the rafweb site

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark036A.htm

36 sqn in Compensated Land Temperate

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark100.htm

100 in TSS

PM sent re other things.

But the Albacore that is depicted below the 36 Sqn Vildebeest also wears TSS or something close to it. Personally, I don't put much store by those profiles but that's just me...

Cheers,

Mark

[mhaselden]

While I'm busy talking to myself, I thought I'd post another wartime Japanese pic I found of a Vildebeest which I believe was taken in Hong Kong.

interesting that the contrast between the camouflage colours doesn't seem quite as marked as on other pics, but then the image isn't the best quality.

Does anyone happen to have all the potential colours for the camo combinations we've discussed (Dark Mediterranean Blue and Sea Green etc)? It would be interesting to see the corresponding colours applied side-by-side, have them photographed in daylight and then turn the pic into a monochrome version so we can compare the greyscale contrast. Any takers???

[Ed Russell]

Personally, I don't put much store by those profiles but that's just me...

It's not just you, hence my TIC jibe about them having a bit each way - I think the person drawing them would probably admit they were little more than approximate representations of the colour scheme.

It is interesting to note the variations though, and to wonder where their information came fom, particularly the TSS one. I wonder if it was done before of after the "Pearl Harbor and Beyond" monograph?

[mhaselden]

The thought just struck me that there was a post in the thread which mentioned aircraft operating in Hong Kong having different camouflage from those operating in Singapore. IanG's Post#69 has that minor detail - it says that Hong Kong should have Temperate Scheme 1 which I presume means Dark Earth/Dark Green with shadow compensation of Light Earth/Light Green. The only minor fly in the ointment is that the Hong Kong pic I posted looks much more like Dark Earth/Mid Stone (at least to me).

[keefr22]

While I'm busy talking to myself, I thought I'd post another wartime Japanese pic I found of a Vildebeest which I believe was taken in Hong Kong.

interesting that the contrast between the camouflage colours doesn't seem quite as marked as on other pics, but then the image isn't the best quality.

To my eyes those colours also appear a lot lighter in tone than the earlier pics - the aircraft appears lighter than the fire engine (whatever colour that may be!!) & looks to be on a par with the airmen's tropical uniforms. I couldn't draw any conclusions from that, but wouldn't something like TLS or TSS appear darker in tone than a light tan uniform?? Looks like DE/MS (or similar) to me too....

K

[mhaselden]

Yep...I'm not sure posting that pic helped us much, except perhaps to indicate that aircraft in Honkers might have worn different camo to those in Singapore, which at least partially reinforces the possibility that the pre-war camouflage trials were implemented to some extent (although I still think the colours actually applied differed from those called out in the documentation...DE/MS being one possible example).

[keefr22]

I have to admit, that barring ''proof'' of the existence of Vildebeests painted in TSS (in which I think they would look superb!), the 'desert' scheme would be my preference to paint my Azur kit in when it arrives - now just need to find ''proof'' and markings details of one painted in that scheme.... !!

K