RAF fuselage bands and spinners - Sky or light blue?

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I've noticed that a number of decals sheets recommend the fuselage bands and spinners of RAF Temperate Land Scheme Spitfires be painted light blue. I was always under the impression that they were Sky. Thirty-odd years ago I read an article by Ian Huntley who reckoned that the reason that a Sky fuselage band applied over the Sky undersurfaces looked very different was that the undersurface paint could well have been mixed locally while the paint for the fuselage band (which was applied much later) was factory spec.

So what's the gen? Sky or light blue?

[Greenshirt]

Can of worms, but simply because the photos make it look different I use different paints so the effect is the same. Usually that means Pollyscale Sky Blue (505396) for the trim and one of the Sky variants (Pollyscale 505254, ModelMaster 2049, Humbrol 90, or Tamiya XF21). Pollyscale's Sky Blue still has a green tint to it, ever so slight, whereas the Skys on my list cover the gamut of possibilities.

Regards,

Tim

[Edgar]

Spinners were Sky, since they were supplied by the propellor manufacturer, and needed balancing, just as much as the prop; if deH & Rotol were told Sky, then that's the colour they'd have used.

The same applied to the band; the whole Force was told to use Sky, and the order was delayed, due to a shortage of paint. The Groups were not told to make do with whatever they could find; the quality of the paint was a different matter, entirely, in fact Ian Huntley said that some was nothing more than distemper, which went white very quickly.

It's possible that decal manufacturers (and they're not alone) are still confused between Sky and Sky Blue.

Edgar

[davidelvy]

Spinners were Sky, since they were supplied by the propellor manufacturer...

Edgar

That's a useful thing to know. It does, however, raise a question. What about the various squadron or flight colours applied to some aircraft? I'm thinking particularly of FAA aircraft, some of which are said to have had spinners pinted in colours specific to their flight. Presumably the manufacturer would not have supplied spinners in a variety of colours and these colours would have been applied at a local level, suggesting that the effect on balance may not have been so important or that it was worth "having a go" and seeing if it turned out alright?

But if the spinners were all standard Sky and if we agree that many photographs seem to show spinners and tail bands being of the same shade then what Paul Lucas says about Sky Blue being used for this purpose (Camouflage and Markings - The Battle For Britain) must be incorrect. I concede, however, that for many this would not be news.

Personally, I like the suggestion that differences in colour are more likely to be due to paint being applied at different times and to different standards.

[Edgar]

Although it's dangerous to assume too much, paragraph 2 seems fairly enlightening; I must admit, though, that it's the only bit of information that I've found, so far.

Edgar

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I was wondering about this, as i've just built Airfix's recent 1/48 Mk I/II Spitfire. I did mine as the Mk II and the decal for the fuselage band is sky blue and the instructions said to paint the spinner sky blue but the undersides are sky. I would have thought they would haev been sky but I went along with the instructions in this case.

thanks

Mike

[Test Graham]

Sky Blue is right, for some aircraft for a certain period (late 1940 to some time in 1941). There is a clear differentiation both in b&w photos and in colour ones, showing the trim (spinner and fuselage band) to be in a paler bluer colour than the underside. The band is shown as a clear contrast on the underside, so it is not "bleed through" of uppersurface colours. For some years this was quoted as an official standard, but if so it seems to have slipped from the knowledge of those listing official documents more recently.

There are those who argue that Sky was not always a well understood colour in the late 1940s, and we are only seeing examples where the factory underside colour is not well matched by whatever the MU (or squadron) was using to apply the trim. This may be true, but if so it seems to be a remarkably good match for Sky Blue. So it is either Sky Blue, or another colour looking just like it, but coming in a tin labelled Sky? In modelling terms, the result is the same.

[Test Graham]

Sky Blue is right, for some aircraft for a certain period (late 1940 to some time in 1941). There is a clear differentiation both in b&w photos and in colour ones, showing the trim (spinner and fuselage band) to be in a paler bluer colour than the underside. The band is shown as a clear contrast on the underside, so it is not "bleed through" of uppersurface colours. For some years this was quoted as an official standard, but if so it seems to have slipped from the knowledge of those listing official documents more recently.

There are those who argue that Sky was not always a well understood colour in the late 1940s, and we are only seeing examples where the factory underside colour is not well matched by whatever the MU (or squadron) was using to apply the trim. This may be true, but if so it seems to be a remarkably good match for Sky Blue. So it is either Sky Blue, or another colour looking just like it, but coming in a tin labelled Sky? In modelling terms, the result is the same.

Despite Edgar's correct observation, the spinner is often shown matching the tail band rather than the underside. Perhaps it was cases such as this that inspired the ruling.

[Super Aereo]

I'd say that if Sky Blue was not used, then some batches of Sky looked suspiciously like Sky Blue, as this well-known photo shows:

[Severus]

I'd say that if Sky Blue was not used, then some batches of Sky looked suspiciously like Sky Blue, as this well-known photo shows:

Do I see correctly the front spit and hurr in Temperate Land, while the far spit is Day Fighter scheme?

[Edgar]

But it pays to remember that aircraft, used for training, were not bound by the same constraints as those of Fighter Command, and those aircraft are part of the Empire Central Flying School.

Edgar

[Super Aereo]

The far Spit is indeed in Day Fighter Scheme, the other two aircraft are - I believe - in Day Fighter Scheme with a mixed grey substituting Ocean Grey.

[Super Aereo]

But it pays to remember that aircraft, used for training, were not bound by the same constraints as those of Fighter Command, and those aircraft are part of the Empire Central Flying School.

Edgar

Absolutely, but they are still carrying a Day Fighter Scheme camouflage and the Fighter Command 18" fuselage band and yellow leading edge strips, which were only prescribed for day fighters.

[3DStewart]

I've always wondered about this photo, and this scan seems a particularly high quality rendition of it. The far Spitfire is clearly Grey/Green, but the nearer Spitfire and Hurricane are in camouflage colours I don't recognise. Can anyone say what they were? Was it something unique to the Empire Flying School?

And to my eyes the Hurricane quite clearly has a different shade of paint from the Spitfires on its spinner and band. It might be sky blue, it might be light grey, but it's not what the Spitfires have, which given the limitations of 70 year old colour photography could fairly be described as Sky.

Is the Hurricane pilot wearing a navy blue uniform; FAA perhaps?

Stewart

Edited March 12, 2011 by Detail Police

[Super Aereo]

To be honest is not the best reproduction of the photo I have ever seen, but it is good enough for discussing purposes.

Regarding the colours, the green in particular: if you look closely the colour seems to be the same on all the aircraft: just look at the Spitfires:

[Edgar]

In "Camera Above The Clouds," and by looking at the original in the RAF Museum library (yes, I have,) it's possible to see that the far Spitfire II might be green/grey, but the closer pair are green/brown, which means that they comply with Air Ministry instructions that home-based trainer aircraft should be green/brown, not in Day Fighter Scheme. This, if they're not likely to venture into Europe, makes total sense, after all camouflage, when they're parked on an open airfield, was of paramount importance. The aircraft are so old, they still sport the aerial pegs on their rudders, in fact the Hurricane has an HF aerial wire and still carries the original "bead" part of the ring-and-bead sighting system. It also has a replacement panel, aft of the exhausts; it's just possible to see a patch of green beside the ECFS badge, which stops abruptly at the panel line. Note, too, that none of them seem to be armed, at least there appear to be no red fabric patches.

Edgar

[keefr22]

But it pays to remember that aircraft, used for training, were not bound by the same constraints as those of Fighter Command, and those aircraft are part of the Empire Central Flying School.

Edgar

But wouldn't they have been bound by the same restraints on the need for the spinners to be balanced that you mentioned? Or could the Hurricane's spinner have been painted post that official signal you showed that appeared to relax the ruling?

Keef

[Test Graham]

I don't believe that fighters in OCUs were considered as trainers, but retained the front-line camouflage with which they were received. I don't see any yellow undersides to contradict this.... There would not be the same incentive to repaint to the latest FC instructions, so seeing camouflage of different periods should not be regarded as exceptional.

[Edgar]

I don't believe that fighters in OCUs were considered as trainers, but retained the front-line camouflage with which they were received. I don't see any yellow undersides to contradict this.... There would not be the same incentive to repaint to the latest FC instructions, so seeing camouflage of different periods should not be regarded as exceptional.

In the A.M.O., in the section dealing with training aircraft, an added note states," Existing aircraft which have been camouflaged with an approved scheme not conforming with para. 38 or 39 should not be changed unless specific instructions to that effect are issued." This, to my mind, gives every reason for seeing a Hurricane I & Spitfire II still in their original Temperate Land Scheme.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

You can see these two from the other side here:

Which I just re-found right here on BM:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48363

Note also they are two Spit Mk.IIs, one with a Rotol and one with a DH prop.

bob

[John]

I don't believe that fighters in OCUs were considered as trainers, but retained the front-line camouflage with which they were received. I don't see any yellow undersides to contradict this.... There would not be the same incentive to repaint to the latest FC instructions, so seeing camouflage of different periods should not be regarded as exceptional.

Looking at photos of 58OTU/2TEU aircraft, they do seem to have conformed to Fighter Command requirements pretty closely. It's worth remembering that fighter OTUs often had a secondary role in local defence, so it would make sense to have their aircraft finished appropriately.

I don't think I've ever seen a Spitfire finished in what I would think of as a "trainer" scheme (DG/DE/Yellow).

John

[gingerbob]

I don't think I've ever seen a Spitfire finished in what I would think of as a "trainer" scheme (DG/DE/Yellow).

I have, but only because it was a prototype (not a trainer).

bob

[Super Aereo]

In "Camera Above The Clouds," and by looking at the original in the RAF Museum library (yes, I have,) it's possible to see that the far Spitfire II might be green/grey, but the closer pair are green/brown, which means that they comply with Air Ministry instructions that home-based trainer aircraft should be green/brown, not in Day Fighter Scheme. This, if they're not likely to venture into Europe, makes total sense, after all camouflage, when they're parked on an open airfield, was of paramount importance. The aircraft are so old, they still sport the aerial pegs on their rudders, in fact the Hurricane has an HF aerial wire and still carries the original "bead" part of the ring-and-bead sighting system. It also has a replacement panel, aft of the exhausts; it's just possible to see a patch of green beside the ECFS badge, which stops abruptly at the panel line. Note, too, that none of them seem to be armed, at least there appear to be no red fabric patches.

Edgar

In my copy of volume III of "Camera Above the Clouds" the colours in the photo do not look significantly different from the ones in the photo above.

Home based trainer aircraft should have had yellow undersurfaces.

All the aircraft in the photo appear to have MSG undersurfaces.

All the aircraft also carry a fuselage band and yellow leading edge stripes, only specified for aircraft in the Day Fighter Scheme (and never for aircraft in the Temperate Land Scheme).

The colour of the camouflage band wrapping around the cockpit area appears to be the same on all three aircraft.

The colour of this area around the cockpit at the time would have been Dark Green both in the Day Fighter Scheme and in the Temperate Land Scheme (cases of transposed colours are rare).

The logical conclusion is that all three aircraft are carrying Day Fighter Scheme, albeit with a darker variation in the grey colour for the aircraft closer to the camera.

(Incidentally, the aircraft still sport "old type" aerials because VHF radios were in use only with operational Squadrons, all other units were still meant to use the earlier HF sets.)

[Super Aereo]

(...)

Which I just re-found right here on BM:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48363

Note also they are two Spit Mk.IIs, one with a Rotol and one with a DH prop.

bob

Thank you for finding the old thread, Gingerbob, I thought we had already discussed the image in question but my painkiller-addled brain (sports injury) had failed to make the connection...

[Test Graham]

The Sky trim was carried well before the introduction of the Day Fighter Scheme, and on other schemes - for example on many Sea Hurricanes painted in Temperate Sea Scheme. What was not seen after the introduction of the Day Fighter scheme was the use of Sky Blue for this trim - it seems to have been always Sky.

I remain amused how so many different interpretations can be made of a photo that is so clearly two aircraft in TLS and one in Day Fighter.