Blenheim IF Night fighters - 2018 model BQ-W

[Mark Mackenzie]

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[GrzeM]

What a fascinatng thread! There are still a few unsolved things from the WWII aviation, one of them are just these Blenheims.

I've got the scan of "THE COVER" showing the disputed aerials and... the AI operator instalation. The guy who sent me this scan (really knowledgeable guy) said, that this is an AI Mk.III placed in front of the Blenheim cockpit, on the pilot's side. But I suppose it's a much later mark device, probably form Mosquito, or Blenheim, not the operational fighter form 1940/41, but much later trainer. What do you think about it?

BTW, anybody knows, what was the marking (letter code) of the Fighter Interception Unit Blenheims? Any photos?

PS. I'm new here, so some introduction: 36 years old, Polish, from Warsaw. Some (Dave) know me from WWI-models mailing list. The List.

Cheers!

Grzegorz (Gregory) M.

Edited September 2, 2011 by GrzeM

[Chuck1945]

...

PS. I'm new here, so some introduction: 36 years old, Polish, from Warsaw. Some (Dave) know me from WWI-models mailing list. The List.

Cheers!

Grzegorz (Gregory) M.

welcome aboard

[mhaselden]

Hi Grzegorz,

What is the name of that book? Those are some really interesting photos on the cover. I would like to buy the book.

Many thanks,

Mark

[brewerjerry]

Hi Grzegorz,

What is the name of that book? Those are some really interesting photos on the cover. I would like to buy the book.

Many thanks,

Mark

Hi

It's the book mentioned in post #2 by graham

cheers

Jerry

[Nick Millman]

Be warned, Mark, that although I would not hesitate to recommend the book for its narrative alone, there are no photographs inside (although there are drawn illustrations and profiles) and those interesting photos on the rear cover are not even captioned.

[mhaselden]

Thanks for the heads up Nick. I'm not a particular fan of Pen and Sword books; several of the ones I've casually examined seem to contain an unusually high number of errors and seem marketed more at the mass consumer rather than the aviation/history buff. That said, if it contains useful insights then I might pick up a copy...if I can get it for less than the list price!

[Selwyn]

What a fascinatng thread! There are still a few unsolved things from the WWII aviation, one of them are just these Blenheims.

I've got the scan of "THE COVER" showing the disputed aerials and... the AI operator instalation. The guy who sent me this scan (really knowledgeable guy) said, that this is an AI Mk.III placed in front of the Blenheim cockpit, on the pilot's side. But I suppose it's a much later mark device, probably form Mosquito, or Blenheim, not the operational fighter form 1940/41, but much later trainer. What do you think about it?

BTW, anybody knows, what was the marking (letter code) of the Fighter Interception Unit Blenheims? Any photos?

PS. I'm new here, so some introduction: 36 years old, Polish, from Warsaw. Some (Dave) know me from WWI-models mailing list. The List.

Cheers!

Grzegorz (Gregory) M.

the FIU code letters were ZQ the only Blenheim identified and listed as on strength is Mk 1 K7160

Selwyn

[DCRanger]

the FIU code letters were ZQ the only Blenheim identified and listed as on strength is Mk 1 K7160

Selwyn

Graham Warner in his lists includes L6688 and L6836 which were both damaged during an air raid 16 August 1940. L6805 was lost in October 1940 due to mishandling of the fuel cocks but the crew escaped safely. This incident happened whilst the Blenheim was acting as target for a AI equipped Boston. All three were Blenheim MKIF's. No photo's that I can find.

[Selwyn]

Chatting to a few friends last night about Blenheim Nightfighters and an interesting question came up.

As the AI mk III was obviously very secret at this time, would the serials of the AI equipped Blenheims be Suffixed with "/G" ( as in L1234/G) to denote that the aircraft should always be guarded?

Selwyn

[Ed Russell]

would the serials of the AI equipped Blenheims be suffixed with "/G" to denote that the aircraft should always be guarded?

You would think so, but when we find the elusive picture requested in Post #1, we will know - maybe. None of the Blenheim squadron histories or anecdotes I am familiar with mention this practice.

A related question - when did the /G suffix come into use?

[Seahawk]

A related question - when did the /G suffix come into use?

I think that will prove to be the key point. But I don't know the answer!

[GrzeM]

It's obvious that the possible suffix would be connected with the AI system, not the airframe itself. Not knowing any "G" marked planes between Beaufighters, equipped with (i presume) much more important Mk.IV device, I don't think the Blenheims had this suffix applied. On the other hand, there are some notes that AI equipped planes were forbidden to cross the Channel.

Any idea about the photo of the AI instalation? Mk.III on Blenheim or some other thing?

[Seahawk]

Have just reread Rawnsley and Wright's Night Fighter. For those of you who don't know, Jimmy Rawnsley was John Cunningham's radar operator for most of the war. Bob Wright also served on the same squadron as them at one point. It's probably the best reminiscence of the night fighter war from the British angle and you don't get much closer to the nightfighter action than John Cunningham.

A few snippets from the book. Chapter and page references are to the the Goodall (Crecy) paperback of 1998. References to Rawlings are to Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and Their Aircraft, 1st Ed.

1. Remember that 604 Squadron converted from Demons to Blenheims, so they were used to a pilot and gunner crew. Navigators didn't enter into it. In fact the first time I recall real navigation coming up is much later in the war when Rawnsley mentions that he was looking forward to adding navigation to his task when his squadron's Mosquitoes were given licence to undertake intruder missions over the Continent.

2. Blenheim radio fit: 604's aircraft were fitted with VHF sets sometime between Michael Anderson becoming CO (March 40, according to Rawlings) and the move to Middle Wallop on 29 July 1940. (Ch. 1, p.20)

3. Blenheim radar installations: mysterious kit surrounded by rumour included " a collection of short stubby aerials projecting from the wings and another aerial. shaped like a barbed arrow, which jutted forward from the nose. ... The vital part of the mystery appeared to be housed in a black metal box which sprouted various knobs and cables and which was placed amidships inside the aircraft. And to top the whole thing there appeared to be a need for an attendant magician to prevent the whole contraption bursting into flames." (Ch. 1, p.20-21.) "I could just see the operator squatting on the cold metal floor, huddled up in a cocoon of old blankets. ... He stirred and unwound himself and thrust the blankets into an untidy heap in front of the set and knelt on them. .. The magician was still kneeling on his prayer mat of blankets, muttering incantations to himself." (Ch. 2, p.28-9)

4. References to turretless Blenheims:

a. The first Beaufighter arrived with 604 just before the end of September (though Rawlings says 2 Sep 1940). Shortly after "in order to boost up the performance of the remaining Blenheims - the Beaufighters were not yet being used on operations,- it was decided that the gun turrets should be taken out. By then we (the air gunners) knew that we had really had it." (Ch 3, p.36.)

b. (Air gunners) "still had to continue with our stint as air-gunners in the remaining Blenheims that had turrets..." (Ch 4, p. 40)

c. (Re his first experience operating an AI set while airborne) "we went off in one of the stripped down Blenheims with a Sergeant pilot at the wheel and one of the ex-magician operators on the prayer mat beside me". (Ch 4, p.40)

d. (Sometime around the end of October 1940) "I was airborne in the turret of one of the few remaining unstripped Blenheims." (Ch.4, p.42)

e. "Finally, on 11 December 1940, my turn came when I was sent off in one of the Blenheims that had been stripped of its turret. .... After the all-round vision from the gunner's turret it gave one an eerie feeling to be buried inside the windowless hull of the aircraft."

From which I conclude that yes, the stripping of turrets did take place and, provisionally, that the turret was not replaced by a cupola or any clear view hatch.

5. NB the radar box on the Beaufighter was "suspended from the low roof, just behind the dome". Rawnsley later comments on the improvement for him when he converted to the Mosquito and could sit looking in the direction of flight.

HTH

Edited for typos.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Seahawk

[Mark Mackenzie]

n/m

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Welkin]

the FIU code letters were ZQ the only Blenheim identified and listed as on strength is Mk 1 K7160

Selwyn

Blenheim MK1F of FIU, serial L6836 with AI Mk IV, crewed by F/O Ashfield, P/O Morris observer, and Sgt Leyland as AI operator, on the night of the 22/23 July 1940 achieved the first airborne radar intercepted kill in history. Ashfield also scored the second AI kill on the 7 Nov 1940. For most of the period 1939 until late 1940, Blenheim IFs and IVFs used for night fighting continued to have day fighter camouflage; it was on 22 November 1940 ordered that Night fighters painted in Special Night RDM2 overall; the FIU codes were ZQ.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Welkin

[mhaselden]

Do we know what code letter was applied to L6836? It would make an interesting model.

[Seahawk]

For most of the period 1939 until late 1940, Blenheim IFs and IVFs used for night fighting continued to have day fighter camouflage; it was on 22 November 1940 ordered that Night fighters painted in Special Night RDM2 overall.

That may have been so but in the case of 604 Sq it does not seem to have been the case that they were operating in daylight as well. "[As the Battle of Britain raged overhead], there was no place for us in the day skies: we were too slow and cumbersome and, with our two engines and superficial resemblance to the Ju 88, we were merely an embarrassment to the Hurricanes and Spitfires." (Ch.2, p.25). Though it does say they did practice intercepts during the day: pilot, operator and gunner (to keep a lookout for the enemy or "to fire an identifying Very light at one of our too inquisitive fighters").

Edited for typos.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Seahawk

[Welkin]

Do we know what code letter was applied to L6836? It would make an interesting model.

I have the CA Blenheim IF in the stash which I would like to finish as L6836, but I haven't been able to find out which individual code letter it might have carried, if any.

'Fighting Colours' lists Blenheim IF L6837 of FIU in July 1940 with unit code ZQ but no individual letter.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Welkin

[Ed Russell]

Has anyone tried finding the archive files concerning the night-fighter? .... Edgar?

With the kind help of Edgar I have read the some of ORB of 604 Sqn which yielded noting beyond the list of AI equipped fighters presented previously.

It could be inferred that some of them were without turrets - the ones with two crew.

I have to agree those two books are an excellent information source and good reads too.

[Ed Russell]

From the excellent Osprey book "Defiant, Blenheim and Havoc Aces"

It has a few pictures of Belenheim 1F's but no turretless ones. There is a nice picture of the wing antennae taken from aft of the wing. The author points out it was quite illegal at the time. it is credited to HC Goddard - anyone know of him?

Serving with Warmwell-based No 604 Sqn at this time was future ace Fit Lt Rory

Chisholm, a pre-war Auxiliary pilot who was most frustrated at the way

the war was being fought in those early days of nightfighting;

'We found our Blenheim 1Fs being fitted with "magic mirrors". This

equipment consisted of a radio transmitter and receiver and the necessary

aerials. But to us it was only AI, and we were sceptical about the value of

the "magic mirrors".

'On the night of 16 August 1940 my crew and I were ordered to

.patrol near Bristol. .....

.....we saw that it was being blitzed below us. I saw bombs explode and

plenty of fires. I had to tell the fighter controller that I could see no

enemy aircraft. I rarely got to look out of the cockpit as my attention

was concentrated on trying to keep this normally stable aircraft on an

even keel. I would have to pore over the instruments as they danced

before my eyes. And so it went on until I was told to come home.

'As nightfighters we were wholly ineffective.,We could not find the

enemy aircraft, and even if we had been able to, our Blenheim IFs,

though improved now by the removal of their turrets, were too slow to

overhaul them. The radar was unreliable and the operators too

inexperienced to use it.'

[chaddy]

If you're as determined as all that, you might find it worth having a flick through "Night Fighter" by Rawnley and Wright. Jimmy Rawnsley was an air gunner on 604 Sq who embraced the new technology of radar and became John Cunningham's longstanding navigator. It's a while since I read it but I seem to recall quite a lot of coverage of the arrival of radar on the squadron eg there was talk of deleting the gun turrets from their Blenheims though I've no idea whether it actually happened. A long shot but there may be a snippet or two in there somewhere. It's a great read anyway: you won't regret it.

Air Britain agree that L8740 was a 21 Sq Blenheim IV written off after a take-off accident at Watton on 6 April 1940.

The book mentioned is well worth reading. One of the best of it's type. I first read it back in the 60's I think. Unfortunately I loaned it out and it was never returned. I do remember Rawnsley saying in the book that when they first used AI he was still John Cunningham's gunner, and another bod was added to operate the radar. So it's certain that at that time the turret was still fitted.

Cheers

Edited July 7, 2012 by chaddy

[Ed Russell]

From - "The Challenge of War" by Guy Hartcup

that indications of enemy aircraft greater

than the distance between the aircraft and the earth, ie, greater than

the height of the aircraft, were completely swamped. Nevertheless

the equipment worked well enough for the Commander-in-Chief,

Fighter Command, to place an order for thirty Battles to be equipped

with aircraft interception sets by 1 September 1939.

At the outbreak of war the Air Ministry scientists moved from

Bawd~ey to Dundee. The nearest airfield, Perth, was not the best for

Bowen's handful of scientists, who were not only responsible for

research and development, but for production, installation and air

testing. Moreover, the Battles were being replaced by Blenheims, of

which six were equipped with radar by 3 September 1939, and

thirty by the end of that month,

In November 1939 Bowen's team was moved again, to St. Athan,

in Glamorgan, where it was still further away from the home base,

thus further complicating the situation. The purpose of the set was,

as just explained, to guide the night-fighter pilot on to his target

until he was within visual range. It was therefore very important

So it's certain that at that time the turret was still fitted.

If you mean by "at that time" the "when they first used AI" you are correct. It would seem indisputable from the number of references in this thread (all of which I have now acquired!) that many had turrets removed - what we don't have is a picture.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Ed Russell

[Ed Russell]

Finding by chance this photo in a secondhand book - Nightfighter by Ken Delve - reminded me of this thread.

The caption says One of the first AI-equipped units, No 25 Squadron undertook much pioneering work This Blenheim is seen at Debden in early 1940.

The code appears to be RX-O, the serial is invisible and it may or may not have a turret. Does anyone have a better copy?

If ever a photo said "I'm taking this quickly, from a poor angle and at long range because I know that if I get caught I'm going to be in deep trouble" well, this one is it.

x

Edited August 17, 2013 by Ed Russell

[gruffy]

We done Ed!