Blenheim IF Night fighters - 2018 model BQ-W

[Ed Russell]

I saw this image in the recent Aviation Workshop "On Target Special - Battle of Britain" publication. Incidentally, I would recommend this book to anyone with a Battle of Britain interest, it's jam packed with interesting profiles.

This one caught my eye - the caption implies (Edit - but doesn't specifically state) it's fitted with AI radar but the profile doesn't show it. Edit - should be visible on the nose.

Okay, I know there are lots of limitations in drawing and looking at aircraft profiles and a degree of healthy scepticism is necessary.

However, does anyone have more information or a picture even of a radar-equipped Blenheim nightfighter like this one. The only one I have seen is all black and serving in an OTU.

[mideast-mover]

Ahhh...I thought I did, but no. Sorry....here's a free Bump though.

[ta152e]

You could do a lot worse than email the RAF Museum, they are always very helpful. The IWM too.

[CliffB]

Ed

You could also try the IPMS Night Fighter SIG. I think Andrew Armstrong made one last year from the 1/72 Special Hobby kit with Owl PE aerials.

Good luck with your search

Cliff

[Colin S-K]

I saw this image in the recent Aviation Workshop "On Target Special - Battle of Britain" publication. Incidentally, I would recommend this book to anyone with a Battle of Britain interest, it's jam packed with interesting profiles.

This one caught my eye - the caption implies it's fitted with AI radar but the profile doesn't show it.

Okay, I know there are lots of limitations in drawing and looking at aircraft profiles and a degree of healthy scepticism is necessary.

However, does anyone have more information or a picture even of a radar-equipped Blenheim nightfighter like this one. The only one I have seen is all black and serving in an OTU.

Ed,

They seem to have had transmitter aerial fitted to the nose glazing and receivers fitted to port wing at least. I have a drawing and a couple of poor photos if interested, from the 'In Action' book.

Colin

[brewerjerry]

Hi

It would be worth contacting on target.

They produced the profile, so somewhere they must have a reference photo/s that they used, and they could give you the source of it/them.

I personally wish profile producers printed a photo reference for their schemes.

Cheers

Jerry

[DCRanger]

Does this help? (No antenna on the starboard wing).

A note of caution on the profile. According to Graham Warner that serial belongs to a 21 Squadron MKIV which was lost on 6 April 1940.

[Ed Russell]

Thanks for everyones help, here and off board. We are not a lot closer to solving the quest, although I am learning a few things. It seems these pictures may exist but haven't surfaced.

You could do a lot worse than email the RAF Museum, they are always very helpful. The IWM too.

I have sort of contacts at the RAFM but I find they are usually too under-resourced to help anyone other than direct inquiries on their doorstep, not always them either.

It would be worth contacting on target.

I have done this and the profile author and I are working together to see if we can find the reference. The point is taken that the caption does not specifically say that aircraft is radar-equipped.

You could also try the IPMS Night Fighter SIG. I think Andrew Armstrong made one last year from the 1/72 Special Hobby kit with Owl PE aerials.

Indeed he did - I have made contact and he confirms photos of TLS ones with radar have not yet surfaced and makes the point that photography of these state of the art machines was probably not encouraged.

Thank you DCRanger - useful drawings. The only black one is illustrated on same page.

A note of caution on the profile. According to Graham Warner that serial belongs to a 21 Squadron MKIV which was lost on 6 April 1940.

Hmm... this is very interesting. A confounding factor is a few references on the net such as this

The No.604 Sqn L8740 (NG-Q) based at Manston, Kent, in August 1940 would be better for this particular add on.

http://www.regshanger.com/Regs%20han...lenheim%20.htm

Yes I know it's a flight sim reference but some of those guys are as anal as our beloved 'colour police' here! I'd really like to know the answer to that one! I suspect a misplaced or mis-interpreted letter or number in the serial. Guesses welcome!

Thanks again

[Seahawk]

Thanks for everyones help, here and off board. We are not a lot closer to solving the quest, although I am learning a few things. It seems these pictures may exist but haven't surfaced.

You could do a lot worse than email the RAF Museum, they are always very helpful. The IWM too.

I have sort of contacts at the RAFM but I find they are usually too under-resourced to help anyone other than direct inquiries on their doorstep, not always them either.

It would be worth contacting on target.

I have done this and the profile author and I are working together to see if we can find the reference. The point is taken that the caption does not specifically say that aircraft is radar-equipped.

You could also try the IPMS Night Fighter SIG. I think Andrew Armstrong made one last year from the 1/72 Special Hobby kit with Owl PE aerials.

Indeed he did - I have made contact and he confirms photos of TLS ones with radar have not yet surfaced and makes the point that photography of these state of the art machines was probably not encouraged.

Thank you DCRanger - useful drawings. The only black one is illustrated on same page.

A note of caution on the profile. According to Graham Warner that serial belongs to a 21 Squadron MKIV which was lost on 6 April 1940.

Hmm... this is very interesting. A confounding factor is a few references on the net such as this

The No.604 Sqn L8740 (NG-Q) based at Manston, Kent, in August 1940 would be better for this particular add on.

http://www.regshanger.com/Regs%20han...lenheim%20.htm

Yes I know it's a flight sim reference but some of those guys are as anal as our beloved 'colour police' here! I'd really like to know the answer to that one! I suspect a misplaced or mis-interpreted letter or number in the serial. Guesses welcome!

Thanks again

If you're as determined as all that, you might find it worth having a flick through "Night Fighter" by Rawnley and Wright. Jimmy Rawnsley was an air gunner on 604 Sq who embraced the new technology of radar and became John Cunningham's longstanding navigator. It's a while since I read it but I seem to recall quite a lot of coverage of the arrival of radar on the squadron eg there was talk of deleting the gun turrets from their Blenheims though I've no idea whether it actually happened. A long shot but there may be a snippet or two in there somewhere. It's a great read anyway: you won't regret it.

Air Britain agree that L8740 was a 21 Sq Blenheim IV written off after a take-off accident at Watton on 6 April 1940.

[Test Graham]

Can I very strongly recommend The History of Air Intercept Radar and the British Night Fighter, by Ian White. Pen & Sword, ISBN 184415532-3. Not, to be honest, that it has a lot of serial/code lettter value.

[Test Graham]

Looking at the rear cover, I should mention that the above drawing of the azimuth receiver antenna, on the outside of both engine cowlings, has actually missed the aerial itself, which extends parallel to the leading edge. It is set slightly further back than in the drawing, mounted not on a circular (fairly thick) plate but one that extends back, diverging slightly, to meet the wing somewhat behind the leading edge, above and below.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Probably my last idea (if it were me) would be to request a copy of the operations record book for 604Sqn for the relevant time period, this would be available from the NA/PRO at kew gardens, London.

The majority of ORBs, kept a table of aircraft used, some just serials, some just code letters, so it could be hit and miss.

cheers

Jerry

[Test Graham]

Just to add that the rear cover mentioned above is that of The History of Air Intercept Radar and the British Night Fighter. I can also add that such Blenheims had VHF radio, so no wire from the aerial to the fin, and IFF. Presumbly this was fitted as on the Spitfire, with a wire from the fuselage to the tailplanes, but I don't recall seeing this on Blenheims. Although the book talks of removing the turrets, clearly they were still carried on many aircraft. The interceptions described in the book often refer to three crew, although some only name the pilot and gunner, others only the pilot and R/O. The last cases may suggest turretless Blenheims, but I wouldn't rely upon it.

[Ed Russell]

Looking at the Rawnsley book as discussed, I’m reading that 604 had more than three AI equipped Blenmeims – no specific number quoted - and that most had the turrets removed, to the dismay of the gunners as it made them redundant. Like Rawnsley many were retrained as AI operators. It was seemingly not uncommon for crews of three to be pilot, AI operator and trainee AI operator, the nearly-blind traning the blind, at least at first. It's an entertaining read.

604 was tasked with convoy escort by day and interception at night so retaining the Day Fighter scheme makes sense.

It appears the RAFM does not have any photos from 604 between 1939-41, making life just that bit more difficult.

Just to add that the rear cover mentioned above is that of The History of Air Intercept Radar and the British Night Fighter. I can also add that such Blenheims had VHF radio, so no wire from the aerial to the fin, and IFF. Presumbly this was fitted as on the Spitfire, with a wire from the fuselage to the tailplanes, but I don't recall seeing this on Blenheims. Although the book talks of removing the turrets, clearly they were still carried on many aircraft. The interceptions described in the book often refer to three crew, although some only name the pilot and gunner, others only the pilot and R/O. The last cases may suggest turretless Blenheims, but I wouldn't rely upon it.

[Edgar]

Probably my last idea (if it were me) would be to request a copy of the operations record book for 604Sqn for the relevant time period, this would be available from the NA/PRO at kew gardens, London.

The majority of ORBs, kept a table of aircraft used, some just serials, some just code letters, so it could be hit and miss.

On the other hand, of course, you could always ask someone (who regularly visits Kew, and has to sit, twiddling his thumbs, for 45 minutes while his files appear) if he could look at the ORB microfilm, and see if it's any help.

Edgar

[Ed Russell]

Golly, if I knew a useful fellow fitting that description I'd ask him like a shot and be very grateful for his efforts. Another Brimodeller-ite has done the RAFM for me - it is a very helpful community this!

On the other hand, of course, you could always ask someone (who regularly visits Kew, and has to sit, twiddling his thumbs, for 45 minutes while his files appear) if he could look at the ORB microfilm, and see if it's any help.

Edgar

[Ed Russell]

On the other hand, of course, you could always ask someone (who regularly visits Kew, and has to sit, twiddling his thumbs, for 45 minutes while his files appear) if he could look at the ORB microfilm, and see if it's any help.

Edgar

As a result of Edgar's most helpful offer I have been through some microfilms of the 604 Sqn ORB and can record the following Blenheims as being recorded as having an AI Test - presumptive evidence of having AI fitted in June-July 1940.

There are some pairs of aircraft recorded with just a pilot in one of the pair - obviously the AI target - I have not recorded these.

L6723

L6728

L1225

L6675

L6802

L6671

L6693

L6375

L6782

L8680

L8373

L1422

I have read several references of Blenheim squadrons only having "one or two" or "a few" AI equipped aircraft but this is rather more. However the Rawnsley book quoted above mentions numerous AI Operators and maybe fits this scenario a bit better.

And presumably "L8740" as mentioned above, is one of these but nothing jumps out.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Ed Russell

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

If anyone is interested in Blenheims, we stock the MPM/Special Hobby 1/72 Blenheims. We have both the Mk I and Mk IV fighters at the moment and the Mk I bomber but the Mk V is out of stock. All a bit cheaper than normal.

http://www.mjwmodels.co.uk/home

thanks

Mike

[Ed Russell]

I found a reference backing up Rawnsley’s notes about Blenheim turret gunners like himself being made redundant in late 1940. An interesting book by MJF Bowyer called Aircraft for the Few - the RAF’s Fighters and Bombers in 1940.

The turret was removed from trials aircraft L6671 at 32MU Colerne.

Removing the Blenheim’s dorsal armament did not meet with universal approval so Frazer Nash produced a two-Browning gun ring, first fitted in place of the turret. Later it was installed in place of the forward hatch and preceded by a small wind shield. Trials with these features and specially rounded AI aerials were undertaken using K7033 but there was no way of converting the Blenheim If into a very desirable fighter.... On 2 October 1940 Fighter Command decreed that the 64 aircraft in its four Blenheim If squadrons should have their turrets removed, the well being covered with a plywood panel. A speed increase of up to 80mph was gained and 100 modification sets were ordered. First to convert would be Middle Wallop’s 604 Sqn to whom nine sets of parts were delivered on 6 October 1940, with 25, 219 and 23 Sqns following in that order.

Look though I have I cannot find a photograph of a Blenheim If without a turret. Anyone else got one?

Edit - This presumably solves the mystery of the incorrect serial on the heading profile - I imagine it's meant to be L6740. Maybe it should have been drawn sans turret?

Edited August 17, 2011 by Ed Russell

[The wooksta V2.0]

I think there's a photo of one in the Graham Warner tome on the Blenheim.

[Ed Russell]

I think there's a photo of one in the Graham Warner tome on the Blenheim.

A scan would be nice.

[Test Graham]

A gain of 80mph seems a considerable overstatement: if a Blenheim could go that fast there'd have been no need for Mosquitos. I don't recall seeing numbers like that mentioned even for the more comprehensive Cotton PR conversion. It may be a mishearing of 18mph, although perhaps a little more would be hoped for!

[Seahawk]

I found a reference backing up Rawnsley’s notes about Blenheim turret gunners like himself being made redundant in late 1940. An interesting book by MJF Bowyer called Aircraft for the Few - the RAF’s Fighters and Bombers in 1940.

The turret was removed from trials aircraft L6671 at 32MU Colerne.

Removing the Blenheim’s dorsal armament did not meet with universal approval so Frazer Nash produced a two-Browning gun ring, first fitted in place of the turret. Later it was installed in place of the forward hatch and preceded by a small wind shield. Trials with these features and specially rounded AI aerials were undertaken using K7033 but there was no way of converting the Blenheim If into a very desirable fighter.... On 2 October 1940 Fighter Command decreed that the 64 aircraft in its four Blenheim If squadrons should have their turrets removed, the well being covered with a plywood panel. A speed increase of up to 80mph was gained and 100 modification sets were ordered. First to convert would be Middle Wallop’s 604 Sqn to whom nine sets of parts were delivered on 6 October 1940, with 25, 219 and 23 Sqns following in that order.

Look though I have I cannot find a photograph of a Blenheim If without a turret. Anyone else got one?

Edit - This presumably solves the mystery of the incorrect serial on the heading profile - I imagine it's meant to be L6740. Maybe it should have been drawn sans turret?

Just curious and apologies for being too dim to follow the argument, but what is the "this" that solves the serial mystery and where has serial L6740 leapt from? It's not in the 604 ORB list you gave.

[Ed Russell]

A gain of 80mph seems a considerable overstatement:

I have to agree, particularly when the same document quotes

No AI or guns 280

AI, no turret or gun ring 245

AI, turret 230

so maybe they did indeed mean 18mph although it's actually 15mph

The 280 is without the belly pack guns as well as the turret

[Ed Russell]

Just curious and apologies for being too dim to follow the argument, but what is the "this" that solves the serial mystery and where has serial L6740 leapt from? It's not in the 604 ORB list you gave.

No, it's me that's dim, reading some of this reference and thinking I'd quoted a bit that I hadn't! Apologies....

Let me add a bit (it's too long to type in full)

From Wittering a dozen Blenheims of 29 and 604 sqns (L6740, L6645, L1502 etc....) set forth to search over the North Sea for an approaching enemy.........

I never said my 604 ORB was a full list - it's only an extract of AI test flights in a given period.

If L6740 was AI fitted, which we don't know, it should be on it, but maybe it didn't perform an AI test flight in that period. Well, back to the reference matereial I go.....

Just to confuse things completely, the next page has a picture with the caption Blenheim If L8740 NG-Q of 604 Sqn..... it is presumably the source for the heading profile.

The pic is not good enough to show the serial or if AI is fitted but it has a turret.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Ed Russell