Blenheim IF Night fighters - 2018 model BQ-W

[Mark Mackenzie]

N/M

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[AMStreet]

I have just gone through the Graham Warner book and the only Mk 1 without a turret that I can find is L1348 on page 159 which was converted for PR duties.

Other than that just a couple of development types (Mks 4 and 5) without turrets.

If I remember correctly Jimmy Rawnsley became an Observer not because of the removal of the turrets on the Blenheim but because the squadron converted to Beaufighters. I seem to recall that the AI equipment was mounted in the fuselage and would not have been accessible from the cockpit as he gives a description of the special operator sleeping on a pile of blankets until it was time to use the radar set. So it would have made sense to drop the observer and keep the gunner/operator.

Edited May 19, 2014 by AMStreet

[Ed Russell]

Here is a relevant extract from “No Place for Chivalry : RAF night fighters defend the East

of England against the German air force in two world wars” by Alastair Goodrum Grub Street 2005

Modifications to the Blenheims, to make them a little more war-like, kept filtering

through and in July all squadron aircraft were fitted with self-sealing fuel tanks. A Fraser

Nash gun mounting, consisting of two Browning .303 machine guns located in the hatch

just forward of the gun turret, was fitted to one aircraft as a trial and two other aircraft

were fitted with armour plating to protect the turret gunner. It was intended to modify all

squadron aircraft in the near future.

Towards the end of July (29) Squadron spread its wings on the operational patrol side by

detaching two aircraft to RAF Ternhill every evening to add their weight to the air defence

of the Merseyside area. Although sector boundaries would be redrawn from the beginning

of 1941, at this time Digby’s sector – in common with Wittering, Kirton in Lindsey and

Church Fenton sectors – ran across the width of England with, in Digby’s case, Ternhill

more or less at its north-western corner. Patrols from Ternhill were actually controlled

from Digby sector ops room and upon completion the Blenheims either landed back at

Ternhill if they were on duty next night or made their way back to Wellingore if they were

to be relieved. There was little success to record from these sorties but the most significant

fact was that many of the Blenheim aircraft sent on these detachments were equipped with

early production AI Mk III sets.

A so-called ‘friendly-fire’ incident involving the squadron occurred at the end of July,

illustrating how fraught with danger night interceptions could be in those days. Plt Off

Richard Rhodes and his air gunner Sgt Service were on a Red Line patrol just before

midnight of July 31 when Rhodes saw an aircraft with its navigation light on. Reporting

this to Digby control he was told to investigate and followed it as it climbed away. At

7,000 feet altitude the navigation lights went off and the Blenheim crew believed that the

silhouette was that of an enemy aircraft. Digby control advised them there were no

friendlies in the area and told Rhodes to open fire. The target went down in flames but was

subsequently found to be an RAF Fairey Battle.

During August there were an increasing number of references to ‘special equipment’, for

example on August 12/13 when Sqn Ldr Widdows, with air gunner Fg Off Charles Bell

and AC2 Bill Wilson as AI operator, took Blenheim L1472 to Ternhill but, as the ORB

mentions, “the special equipment in the aircraft did not pick up any contacts during the

By the end of August 1940 the squadron had on charge nine Blenheims equipped with

‘special equipment’ (AI Mk III) sets and their crews were practising hard to achieve night

operational status. These Blenheims were L1290, L1292, L1324, L1330, L1472, L6637,

L7135, L7153 and L8661. Appearing amongst the crew names was that of a certain Pilot

Officer John Randall Daniel Braham. On August 17, Plt Off Braham carried out his first

‘RDF’ trial, an uneventful 21/2-hour patrol off the Lincolnshire coast to get experience

 

NB - Re the post above this - according to Rawnsley's book the reason was that the gunners were being re-trained as radar operators in Blenheims, before the advent of the Beaufighter.

[Selwyn]

The be all and end all of this is that these radar equipped aircraft at the time were at the cutting edge of technology and incredibly secret. There would have been a total ban on photography on base, and anyone caught taking pictures of them anywhere would have been, if they were very lucky, banged up in a cell for a long time. More likely the person involved would be looking at an espionage charge, and in wartime this would almost certainly result in that person taking a long drop on a short rope.

Its very unlikely an image would ever turn up for this reason, the only chance of seeing one would be an official picture found in a recently declassified secret document.

I don't hold out much hope on this!

Selwyn

[Seahawk]

NB - Re the post above this - according to Rawnsley's book the reason was that the gunners were being re-trained as radar operators in Blenheims, before the advent of the Beaufighter.

Relevant quotation (concluding words of chapter 3 (Goodall paperback p.36)):

"And then came the final blow. In order to boost the performance of the remaining Blenheims - the Beaufighters were not yet being used on operations - it was decided that the gun turrets should be taken out. By then we [the air gunners] knew we had really had it.

But there was one ray of hope. The gunners were not just posted away, as I was afraid would happen. We were offered a choice: we could be posted away as air gunners to some other unit or we could remain with the squadron and learn to become radar operators.

I was overjoyed. Here was the chance to get in on the ground floor of something which I had come to feel was going to have a very great future."

[Seahawk]

During August there were an increasing number of references to ‘special equipment’, for

example on August 12/13 when Sqn Ldr Widdows, with air gunner Fg Off Charles Bell

and AC2 Bill Wilson as AI operator, took Blenheim L1472 to Ternhill but .....

NB explicit reference to 3-man crew (as also mentioned repestedly by Rawnsley).

[Nick Millman]

NB explicit reference to 3-man crew (as also mentioned repestedly by Rawnsley).

Really?

Page 50: "And then came the final blow. In order to boost up the performance of the remaining Blenheims - the Beaufighters were not yet being used on operations - it was decided that the gun turrets should be taken out."

Page 57: "we still had to continue with our stint as air-gunners in the remaining Blenheims that had turrets, and our only chance of getting any practice as operators was to fly as third man during night flying tests and try to persuade the regular crew to let us have a go."

This from the 1957 hard back edition published by Collins. These quotes seem to suggest fairly conclusively that some Blenheims were being flown without turrets and with a two man crew of pilot and radar operator.

Also mentioned in comment # 33

Nick

[gingerbob]

A lot of today's comments are repeating what was already given in the thread, as Nick hints.

bob

[Selwyn]

Just awakening this post after a long while but continuing on the thread of if radar equipped  Blenheim Night fighters  had the turrets removed. A bit more evidence has appeared as I was reading an  autobiography I found on Amazon,  "Diary of a night fighter pilot 1939 - 1945,"  by  Sqn Leader  Douglas Haig Greaves, who trained to fly in 1940 and was one of the early night fighter pilots. I quote from the book from his entries  early 1941: 

 

"We finished the Hurricane course on 6th January and were granted 14 days leave before reporting to Number 54 Operational Training Unit at Church Fenton near Leeds on 17th January. The aircraft were Blenheim I's fitted with two Bristol Mercury VIII engines. These were day bombers first brought into service in the early thirties but now obsolete. They have been modified for night fighting by removing the hydraulic gun turret and fitting a seat and small radar set in the back. The aircraft is painted black, the armament is four Browning machine guns mounted under the nose and they have a top speed of between 200 and 220 miles per hour.

Our Commanding Officer is Wing Commander Atcherley, one of two brothers famous in the RAF."

 

After training at 54OTU he was posted to  68 Sqn.

 

Selwyn

 

 

 

 

[Ed Russell]

Well it has taken since 2011 but pictures of the elusive Blenheim If night fighters have been found by Petr Hobza of Owl Decals

 

 

 

They are from the book Gentlemen in Blue which is a history of 600 Sqn. Not the greatest quality but of significance to anyone reading this thread.

 

Not only has Petr found the pictures but he has produced a nice little decal sheet for people like me!

 

 

Now I have to re-read this thread and all the references before getting out a couple of Airfix Blenheims later on this year.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Interesting I wonder why the turrets were removed

     AI wasn't fitted until june/july, ( mentioned in someones previous post in this thread ) 

     and the caption states BQ-W lost 10 may 1940 in holland,

    so they are most likely not AI equipped blenheim's 

    cheers

       jerry

[mhaselden]

2 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

 

 

They are from the book Gentlemen in Blue which is a history of 600 Sqn. Not the greatest quality but of significance to anyone reading this thread.

 

Not only has Petr found the pictures but he has produced a nice little decal sheet for people like me!

 

 

Now I have to re-read this thread and all the references before getting out a couple of Airfix Blenheims later on this year.

 

Thanks for sharing Ed.  Just goes to show that patience can be rewarded.  The first photo showing BQ-V is entirely compelling.  Alas the pic of BQ-G isn't because the turret could be hiding behind the port wingtip.  However, at least there's now photographic evidence of the turret being removed from NF Blenheim MkIs. 

 

2 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    Interesting I wonder why the turrets were removed

     AI wasn't fitted until june/july, ( mentioned in someones previous post in this thread ) 

     and the caption states BQ-W lost 10 may 1940 in holland,

    so they are most likely not AI equipped blenheim's 

    cheers

       jerry

 

Valid question, Jerry.  Perhaps the gun turret was unnecessary weight/drag given that the NF Blenheims were unlikely to be attacked by any German fighters?

[Ed Russell]

4 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

    so they are most likely not AI equipped Blenheims

I wouldn't say that just based on the caption - it may or may not be correct. Captions are only slightly more trustworthy than profiles. Everything I have read points to radar and turret removal going together.

I have ordered the book and will report back in due course.

[AWFK10]

By the time fin stripes were introduced, in May 1940, there wouldn't have been heavy snow on the ground. I suggest these photos actually date from winter 1940/41 and that BQ-W is a different aircraft from the one lost on 10 May 1940, when 600 Sqn was operating in the day fighter role: at that point, its Blenheims wouldn't have been painted black and would undoubtedly still have had turrets.

Edited May 5, 2017 by AWFK10

[occa]

On 19.5.2014 at 1:53 PM, Mark Mackenzie said:

Text and photo from Graham Warner's "Bristol Blenheim" book. Text indicates that a wooden fairing was fitted in place of the turret but guns were still retained, whilst photo shows a development aircraft with a cupola. (Apologies for the quality but it was taken with an iPad and not scanner).

Warner sadly passed away in March of this year:

http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/obituaries/rip-graham-warner

 

I've found another view of the same (or of a similarirly equipped) AC here:

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warbirds-3-the-second-world-war-fighters-bombers-and-patrol-aircraft-book_310.html?printable_version=true

 

 

Bristol 142M Blenheim Mk. IV in RCAF service.  (RCAF Photo)

 

Interestingly if you save the photo the title says this:

Bristol--Fairchild---142M-Blenheim---CF-Photo

[Selwyn]

10 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    Interesting I wonder why the turrets were removed

     AI wasn't fitted until june/july, ( mentioned in someones previous post in this thread ) 

     and the caption states BQ-W lost 10 may 1940 in holland,

    so they are most likely not AI equipped blenheim's 

    cheers

       jerry

I agree its probably a different  airframe to the BQ-W lost 10th May.  think its highly unlikely that the very secret AI equipped blenheims would be allowed to operate over the continent at that time. Specialist night  fighting aircraft were a very secret, rare, and incredibly valuble assets at that time, and would not be thrown away willy nilly on daylight operations over holland with the added risk of the Germans capturing an example the airborne radar set, unless of course the AI set was removed before the operation and the turret refitted. I believe this might have been the case due to the fact  that the crew of two, F/O Moore  and Cpl Isaccs  (Normal crew of a blenheim I was 3 people) lost in BQ-W   suggests something different, but Isaccs as the crewman has  the rank of  Corporal,   suggesting that he was a pre war airgunner as opposed to an AI operator which I believe were all from day one sargeants. And why would you need an AI operator in daylight ops?  Most AG's at that time were either corporals or LAC's, Sargeant AG's became more common after the fall of France, The surviving gunners being promoted to sargeants  and the rank was seen as an encouragement  to tempt new recruits into the AG trade to replace lost men. 

The picture from gentlemen in blue  of BQ-G does not show clearly if the turret has been removed, however if you look closely, its indistinct, but the  AI antennas can be seen on the wing, power egg, and nose so it may be safe to assume it was turretless at this time.

Its interesting  the way this picture is taken so that there is no clear view of the turret, (if its there). The RAF photographers were obviously trained to record aircraft for official photo's with the sensitive equipment features obscured.  The telling photos for us modellers are in the personal  photo's not intended for publication, that were not taken with security in mind. Have you noticed most official Lancaster photos are very similar in aspect, with the mainwheel in such a position that you cannot see if the aircraft has a H2S Blister fitted ?

 

Selwyn

[mhaselden]

6 hours ago, AWFK10 said:

By the time fin stripes were introduced, in May 1940, there wouldn't have been heavy snow on the ground. I suggest these photos actually date from winter 1940/41 and that BQ-W is a different aircraft from the one lost on 10 May 1940, when 600 Sqn was operating in the day fighter role: at that point, its Blenheims wouldn't have been painted black and would undoubtedly still have had turrets.

 

Excellent point.  The presence of the fin flash and A1 fuselage roundels almost certainly place these photos in the winter of 1940-41 rather than 1939-40.

 

39 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

I agree its probably a different  airframe to the BQ-W lost 10th May.  think its highly unlikely that the very secret AI equipped blenheims would be allowed to operate over the continent at that time. Specialist night  fighting aircraft were a very secret, rare, and incredibly valuble assets at that time, and would not be thrown away willy nilly on daylight operations over holland with the added risk of the Germans capturing an example the airborne radar set, unless of course the AI set was removed before the operation and the turret refitted. I believe this might have been the case due to the fact  that the crew of two, F/O Moore  and Cpl Isaccs  (Normal crew of a blenheim I was 3 people) lost in BQ-W   suggests something different, but Isaccs as the crewman has  the rank of  Corporal,   suggesting that he was a pre war airgunner as opposed to an AI operator which I believe were all from day one sargeants. And why would you need an AI operator in daylight ops?  Most AG's at that time were either corporals or LAC's, Sargeant AG's became more common after the fall of France, The surviving gunners being promoted to sargeants  and the rank was seen as an encouragement  to tempt new recruits into the AG trade to replace lost men. 

The picture from gentlemen in blue  of BQ-G does not show clearly if the turret has been removed, however if you look closely, its indistinct, but the  AI antennas can be seen on the wing, power egg, and nose so it may be safe to assume it was turretless at this time.

Its interesting  the way this picture is taken so that there is no clear view of the turret, (if its there). The RAF photographers were obviously trained to record aircraft for official photo's with the sensitive equipment features obscured.  The telling photos for us modellers are in the personal  photo's not intended for publication, that were not taken with security in mind. Have you noticed most official Lancaster photos are very similar in aspect, with the mainwheel in such a position that you cannot see if the aircraft has a H2S Blister fitted ?

 

Selwyn

 

I concur Selwyn.  I'd be interested to learn the origin of the code identity L8669 for 'BQ-G' because it's clearly not derived from the photo in this thread.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by mhaselden

[Seahawk]

For anyone modelling BQ-G, NB that the bottom row of the cockpit glazing has been overpainted.

[woody37]

15 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    Interesting I wonder why the turrets were removed

     AI wasn't fitted until june/july, ( mentioned in someones previous post in this thread ) 

     and the caption states BQ-W lost 10 may 1940 in holland,

    so they are most likely not AI equipped blenheim's 

    cheers

       jerry

Possibly to increase speed, the Blenheim weren't the fastest things on two engines so would of helped to improve closing speeds in the nightfighter role

[Selwyn]

9 hours ago, mhaselden said:

 

Excellent point.  The presence of the fin flash and A1 fuselage roundels almost certainly place these photos in the winter of 1940-41 rather than 1939-40.

 

 

I concur Selwyn.  I'd be interested to learn the origin of the code identity L8669 for 'BQ-G' because it's clearly not derived from the photo in this thread.

 

 

 

Got to my references tonight. Some confirmation that Isaccs was a gunner, and indicates that BQ-W was turreted at the time of its loss:

 

No. 600 Squadron was ordered to conduct an attack on Rotterdam airport, which was in enemy hands after being captured earlier that day by German parachute troops; six Blenheim’s taking off at 12.00 hours.

A strafing attack was conducted on Luftwaffe Junkers Ju. 52 transport aircraft on the aerodrome, immediately following which, the Blenheim’s were in turn attacked by Me. 110 long-range twin-engine fighters from 3/ ZG. 1.

 

The No. 600 Squadron Narrative of the attack on Rotterdam aerodrome and subsequent patrols is reproduced below verbatim:

 

“At 1200 hours the COMMANDING OFFICER with FLYING OFFICERS MOORE, ROWE AND HAYES, and PILOT OFFICERS ANDERSON AND HAINE were sent off to attack ROTTERDAM aerodrome which had been taken by GERMAN parachute troops and to destroy any aircraft in the air or on the ground. Arriving there they dived over the aerodrome attacked and destroying a JU 82 (should read Ju. 52) on the ground and climbing,were immediately attacked by 12 ME 110 which had apparently been patrolling above. There was a fierce fight the exact effects of which on the MEs cannot be stated as it is not certain how much the rear gunners were able to fire. FLYING OFFICER HAYES was very ably directed by CORPORAL HOLMES as to how and when to turn and succeeded in shaking off his pursuers. The machine was severely damaged in the starboard wing and the petrol tank was pierced. He made for home but almost immediately encountered 3 HE 111s which he immediately attacked with his remaining ammunition and succeeded in breaking up the formation before bringing his aircraft back safely. Neither the pilot nor the air gunner were wounded. The remaining five machines were reported missing.

 The crews of the missing were SQUADRON LEADER WELLS, CORPORAL KIDD (gunner), SERGEANT DAVIS (observer) PILOT OFFICER HAINE, PILOT OFFICER KRAMER (gunner), FLYING OFFICER ROWE, PILOT OFFICER ECHLIN (gunner), PILOT OFFICER ANDERSON, L.A.C. HAWKINS (Gunner), PILOT OFFICER MOORE CPL. ISAACS (gunner).”

 

Source Harkins, Hugh. Blenheim MK.IF Combat Log: Fighter Command Day Fighter Sweeps/Night Interceptions  September 1939 - June 1940 

 

 Further to that "Gentlemen in blue"  Lists the aircraft lost on 10th May 1940 at Walcheren  and confirms BQ-W was L1335 a different aircraft,as blenheim night fighters were only painted black after November  1940. The caption on the turretless picture is obviously wrong.

 

Pilot	Air Gunner	Navigator	Aircraft
S/L Jimmy Wells	Cpl Basil Kidd	Sgt John Davis	L6616 BQ-R
P/O Norman Hayes	CPL John Holmes	-	L1517 BQ-O
P/O Dick Haine	P/O Mike Kramer	-	L1514 BQ-N
Second Section
F/L Hugh Rowe	P/O Bob Echlin (RCAF)	-	L1401 BQ-K
F/O Roger Moore	Cpl Laurie Isaacs	-	L1335 BQ-W
P/O Mike Anderson	LAC Bert Hawkins	-	L1515 BQ-L

Edited May 5, 2017 by Selwyn

[Selwyn]

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Got to my references tonight. Some confirmation that Isaccs was a gunner, and indicates that BQ-W was turreted at the time of its loss:

 

No. 600 Squadron was ordered to conduct an attack on Rotterdam airport, which was in enemy hands after being captured earlier that day by German parachute troops; six Blenheim’s taking off at 12.00 hours.

A strafing attack was conducted on Luftwaffe Junkers Ju. 52 transport aircraft on the aerodrome, immediately following which, the Blenheim’s were in turn attacked by Me. 110 long-range twin-engine fighters from 3/ ZG. 1.

 

The No. 600 Squadron Narrative of the attack on Rotterdam aerodrome and subsequent patrols is reproduced below verbatim:

 

“At 1200 hours the COMMANDING OFFICER with FLYING OFFICERS MOORE, ROWE AND HAYES, and PILOT OFFICERS ANDERSON AND HAINE were sent off to attack ROTTERDAM aerodrome which had been taken by GERMAN parachute troops and to destroy any aircraft in the air or on the ground. Arriving there they dived over the aerodrome attacked and destroying a JU 82 (should read Ju. 52) on the ground and climbing,were immediately attacked by 12 ME 110 which had apparently been patrolling above. There was a fierce fight the exact effects of which on the MEs cannot be stated as it is not certain how much the rear gunners were able to fire. FLYING OFFICER HAYES was very ably directed by CORPORAL HOLMES as to how and when to turn and succeeded in shaking off his pursuers. The machine was severely damaged in the starboard wing and the petrol tank was pierced. He made for home but almost immediately encountered 3 HE 111s which he immediately attacked with his remaining ammunition and succeeded in breaking up the formation before bringing his aircraft back safely. Neither the pilot nor the air gunner were wounded. The remaining five machines were reported missing.

 The crews of the missing were SQUADRON LEADER WELLS, CORPORAL KIDD (gunner), SERGEANT DAVIS (observer) PILOT OFFICER HAINE, PILOT OFFICER KRAMER (gunner), FLYING OFFICER ROWE, PILOT OFFICER ECHLIN (gunner), PILOT OFFICER ANDERSON, L.A.C. HAWKINS (Gunner), PILOT OFFICER MOORE CPL. ISAACS (gunner).”

 

Source Harkins, Hugh. Blenheim MK.IF Combat Log: Fighter Command Day Fighter Sweeps/Night Interceptions  September 1939 - June 1940 

 

 Further to that "Gentlemen in blue"  Lists the aircraft lost on 10th May 1940 at Walcheren  and confirms BQ-W was L1335 a different aircraft,as blenheim night fighters were only painted black after November  1940. The caption on the turretless picture is obviously wrong.

 

Pilot	Air Gunner	Navigator	Aircraft
S/L Jimmy Wells	Cpl Basil Kidd	Sgt John Davis	L6616 BQ-R
P/O Norman Hayes	CPL John Holmes	-	L1517 BQ-O
P/O Dick Haine	P/O Mike Kramer	-	L1514 BQ-N
Second Section
F/L Hugh Rowe	P/O Bob Echlin (RCAF)	-	L1401 BQ-K
F/O Roger Moore	Cpl Laurie Isaacs	-	L1335 BQ-W
P/O Mike Anderson	LAC Bert Hawkins	-	L1515 BQ-L

Further to my post above,some more information I have discovered.

  According to "Gentlemen in blue" the gunner  in BQ-O listed above, CPL John Holmes survived the crash and made his way back to the UK in  the same ship that brought the Dutch royal family to the UK.(P/O's Haine and Kramer also got back). On returning to 600Sqn He was subsequently awarded the DFM and was commissioned Flying Officer, and retrained as a AI operator remaining with the squadron.

On 20th December 1940 he was flying  on AI  interception practice with pilot Sgt Thomas Wilson. The aircraft got into difficulties when returning to Catterick, and crashed on Skelton Moor, Hurst, Richmond N Yorks killing both crew.  The crashed aircraft  was identified as Blenheim L1467 At the time of the accident its is believed to have been coded "BQ-W".

600Sqn  were re-equipping with Beaufighters  in late 1940, so it seems that the black  turretless Blenheim BQ-W identified as being in the background  in  Ed Russel's picture was probably L1467.

 

Blenheim Crash

 

Selwyn

[GrzeM]

On the photo of the BQ-V the AI aerials on the wing are quite well visible. So we have one sure turetless AI equipped Blenheim confirmed. That's great!

 

On the other hand, the AI and removal of the turret were not necessarily in coincidence. There is well-known photo of the OTU YX-N with the turret and complete set of AI aerials.

There are also two photos of the ZK-X with the aerials and the turret, still with day camouflage:

Apparently this one has an aerial and the still the "old" finish:

...so the BQ-G is rather "probable", not the "confirmed". Had radar, had special night finish, but we don't know if it had the turret or not, as the wing obscures the view...

Cheers!

G.

Edited May 6, 2017 by GrzeM

[Selwyn]

16 hours ago, GrzeM said:

On the photo of the BQ-V the AI aerials on the wing are quite well visible. So we have one sure turetless AI equipped Blenheim confirmed. That's great!

 

On the other hand, the AI and removal of the turret were not necessarily in coincidence. There is well-known photo of the OTU YX-N with the turret and complete set of AI aerials.

There are also two photos of the ZK-X with the aerials and the turret, still with day camouflage:

Apparently this one has an aerial and the still the "old" finish:

...so the BQ-G is rather "probable", not the "confirmed". Had radar, had special night finish, but we don't know if it had the turret or not, as the wing obscures the view...

Cheers!

G.

A note of warning, Please do not make the mistake  of believing if you have two pictures of blenheims marked ZK-X they are the same aircraft. the only way to identify a RAF airframe  positively is by its airframe serial number.   in this case Its obvious that the ZK-X pictures were taken at the same time and place (see the chap sat in the foreground).  

 

 Nobody has stated  BQ-G is turretless. It  is an assumption not a fact.

 

YX-N was an 54 OTU Training airframe not an operational aircraft, so removing the turret for performance reasons was probably not urgently required, and any conversion kits to blank the turret hole would have gone to operational squadrons first as a matter of necessity. We do have documentary evidence that 54 OTU definitely had turretless Blenheims  in january 1941. We do not know when the YX-N picture was taken, only that is after November 1940 when the instruction to paint the aircraft black was given. 

The closest to confirmation we can come to identification of a turretless Blenheim nightfighter  is the aircraft in the crash,L1467. 

This aircraft was listed in the squadron Operations book as  becaming lost whilst  at night. flying  on AI  interception practice,  We know  know the crewman was a AI operator, both confirming that it was radar equipped. It was identified as Probably being coded BQ-W and we have an indistinct image of a turretless BQ-W  taken around that time. And that I am afraid is the closest you will get, unless you find any more evidence!

 

Selwyn

Edited May 7, 2017 by Selwyn

[GrzeM]

59 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

A note of warning, Please do not make the mistake  of believing if you have two pictures of blenheims marked ZK-X they are the same aircraft. the only way to identify a RAF airframe  positively is by its airframe serial number.   in this case Its obvious that the ZK-X pictures were taken at the same time and place (see the chap sat in the foreground). 

Sure you are right.

 

59 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

 Nobody has stated  BQ-V is turretless. It  is an assumption not a fact.

I assume that the photo is clear enough to confirm both lack of turret anf the presence of the aerials.

 

59 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

YX-N was an 54 OTU Training airframe not an operational aircraft, so removing the turret for performance reasons was probably not urgently required, and any conversion kits to blank the turret hole would have gone to operational squadrons first as a matter of necessity.

...so was painting it in the Special Night Finish. I assume (without being sure) that it came to OTU from operational unit. Warpaint publication gives serial K7159 for this plane - is that possible to check its history? ( I've read somewhere that yellow outlined code letters were introduced in may 1941 - is that true? Would that place this photo in time when there were no operational night fighter Blenheims, allowing them to be sent to OTU?)

 

BTW, Polish 307 squadron had plane shown on this photo - is that training Blenheim or one of their operational Beaufighters?

Edited May 6, 2017 by GrzeM

[mhaselden]

5 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Nobody has stated  BQ-V is turretless. It  is an assumption not a fact.

 

Hi Selwyn,

 

'Fraid the photo provided by Ed Russell showing BQ-V seems like pretty convincing evidence that the airframe was lacking a turret...or am I missing something obvious?

 

Cheers,
Mark