mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Ok folks, I was one of those kids who had a Kellogg's plastic kit of the Comet racer. Loved it, wish I still had it. I always thought G-ACSS was painted in red with a white cheat line and code letters. Check out this pic from the Flight Archive. It looks to me like the cheat line was silver. Flight Archive G-ACSS Pic Am I mis-reading this photo? Is my memory playing tricks on me? We know that 'Black Magic' wore a black and gold scheme so did 'Grosvener House' in reality wear a red and silver scheme? Cheers, Mark Edited February 7, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 as far as im aware a late friend who worked on this aircraft and the mew gull told me it was white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I'm not arguing, Goose. Just asking questions. Here's another pic that also seems to show a silver cheat line. G-ACSS Flight Archive Pic 2 Irrespective, these are marvellous images of one of my all-time favourite aircraft. Certainly one of the most elegant designs ever!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 And one more just for fun, although this is probably less convincing than the preceding 2 pics: G-ACSS Flight Archive Pic 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Mark. The cheat line was white. The white trim was hardly dry by the time it got to the start of the race, and it was severely abraded by the airflow, hence thr slightly faded appearance. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Chris, The problem is these pics were taken before the start of the race. I swear I'm seeing reflection and not abrading... Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev1n Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 black and white pics? can you really draw a conclusion form them? every reference I've ever seen says the cheatline was white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) It's very difficult (nay impossible) to draw colour conclusions from monochrome pics. However, I'm not making colour observations per se. I'm simply highlighting that these pics seem to show tonal variations in the cheat line that don't seem to be caused by shadows. On a number of the pics, there is(to my eyes, at least) a perceptible metallic sheen to the cheat line. Just because all references state that it was white doesn't make it white unless there is solid proof from multiple contemporaneous sources that it was, indeed, white. So far, we have a second-hand (at best) memory that the markings were white. I'm hoping someone can provide more definitive (preferably documentary) evidence to prove me wrong. Edited February 7, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev1n Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 granted I wasnt around at the time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Few of us were, mate, which is what makes this stuff both fun and challenging at the same time. I am more than happy to accept I'm wrong but there are several things about these pics that raise questions. I might send them to Shuttleworth to see what they say about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Just wondering if metallic paints were even available in 1934? Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Didn't 'Black Magic' have gold trim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Didn't 'Black Magic' have gold trim? Good point Mark. I'll try and get in touch with some of the restoration team from Hatfield and see what they say. I do remember talking to Ron Paine when I was at Hatfield and he informed me that the colours were correct matches for the original. Ron flew G-ACSS several times in the late 30's before it was hung up for display. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thanks Chris. That would be great. I presume there's some documentation somewhere for this beautiful bird but we may have to rely on memories which, as we all know, can be fallible. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Just wondering if metallic paints were even available in 1934?Chris. Huh? The whole of the RAF was in silver painted aeroplanes in 1934! Edited February 7, 2011 by Work In Progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHIL B Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) I've always thought of Grosvenor House as red with white markings but it was repainted after it appeared overall silver for Arthur Clouston then for the RAF. I can't find any contemporary colour references but this is a good excuse to post this Youtube video of newsreel footage of the MacRobertson race. FWIW, have a look at 0.22 and 0.25. The Grosvenor House name appears to match the white of the Union Flag and the pilots' shirt collars but thats not exactly conclusive is it? Still, what a gorgeous aeroplane. Its a de Havilland aircraft, its British and it was a winner! Phil. Edited February 7, 2011 by PHIL B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Huh? The whole of the RAF was in silver painted aeroplanes in 1934! I am aware of the aluminium dope available at that time, however, the original post was referring to painted trim lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) I am aware of the aluminium dope available at that time, however, the original post was referring to painted trim lines. Given that all these aeroplanes were finished in cellulose anyway, it was perfectly normal to use aluminium dope to paint trim lines, registration letters, etc on them. Edited February 7, 2011 by Work In Progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Excuse my ignorance here but is it possible, if she started life in silver dope for the RAF, the red was painted on and left to dry while the silver still showed through on areas yet to be painted white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Excuse my ignorance here but is it possible, if she started life in silver dope for the RAF, the red was painted on and left to dry while the silver still showed through on areas yet to be painted white? Not a bad thought at all, that... frankly, that would be a lot easier for the painters than trying to put white paint directly over the red, so it would make sense. Bit of reverse masking and off you go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Excuse my ignorance here but is it possible, if she started life in silver dope for the RAF, the red was painted on and left to dry while the silver still showed through on areas yet to be painted white? Hi Col It was painted red first, and then silver to go to the RAF. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastcat Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The clue to the fading on the cheatline of "Grosvenor House" lies in the name of the aircraft. It represents a comet with a rounded front, ending in a gradually fading tail, as in a real comet. Early pictures of E-1 show a comet motif on the nose but it's far shorter and has a spikey or hard edged tail as the painter hasn't attempted to represent fading. Although the story of wear and tear has appeared many times, it's never had much logic as it appears on the brand new aircraft before it left Mildenhall and is in an area unaffected by airflow. It also neglects the fact that the registration letters nearby are unfaded. Regarding colour, I've never seen any reference to silver in any publication and the restorers obviously thought it was white. There were more people around who might have been involved 30 years ago when it was first restored. Having said that, they still got some features of the scheme wrong so they weren't infallible. White and silver are extremely difficult to tell apart on monochrome photos as both can have tonal values and white can look a little grey when in shade. The cheatline is painted on a change in section of the fuselage. It's below a hard edge where the fuselage side meets the rounded top decking and tends to have less light than the upper surfaces. The choice of photographs ignores later pictures in the same series which show a close-up of the crew in the cockpit. Here the cheatline also appears in close-up and is correctly exposed. It shows up as a very solid white without the slight dullness of aluminium paint. And regarding tonal values, the shirts and collars of the bystanders share the same tones. Were they silver or just plain dirty? It would be nice to get positive confirmation from contemporary sources but even these can't be relied on. Details are often omitted, usually in regard to the colour of reg. letters or trim but even extending to describing only the fuselage colour and ignoring the wings, assuming everyone would know they were silver, a common colour for wings in the '30s. Of couse, they didn't expect modellers to be attempting to work out specific colour schemes from their descriptions and news photos over seventy years later................! Me, I'll go with the consensus of opinion that the trim was white until some-one proves otherwise. Regards Dave A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks for the input Dave. The other pic with the cockpit is linked below: DH-88 G-ACSS Again The pure white does seem to move towards a grey-ish tone at the left edge of the image. I accept everyone else could be right and I'm just seeing things. I was just hoping there was more positive evidence one way or the other. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastcat Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hi Mark, I think some of the problem is due to pixelation caused by enlarging the original print. Even the red looks patchy and descriptions of the day say it was polished for speed and we know the paint was pretty fresh. I've encountered the same problem with the Short Crusader (photos earlier in Flights Archive set). It's always described as white and blue. But did the white extend to all the metalwork around the engine? The nose cone is really a set of beautifully made flat panels wire linked together and set off with a complex helmet cowl around the cylinders. Anodised aluminium I could easily visualise, but not white paint which would chip and discolour. But it's impossible to tell and descriptions just say the fuselage was white. Anodised aluminium and white is extremely difficult to differentiate in monochrome pics. It's also possible that the wings were silver at some stage as were most of the High Speed Flight aircraft but again, no proof. I've looked through a lot of the Flight pages but can only find the Comet described as red with no qualification of the trim. Maybe it's there but I've not seen it yet. David Ogilvy's excellent book on the Comets describes it as red and white but doesn't qualify the source of that information and of course was written much later than the race. The dope was made by Cellon incidentally but I'm sure they had no record of what was used. Sadly, even folks who saw the real thing can't be relied upon. I once asked a racing motor-cyclist what colour the race numbers on his bikes were. He'd won Senior and Junior Production bike races in the mid '50s on BSA Gold Stars, the first to do so. He was pretty touched that someone knew this forty years later but couldn't for the life of him remember! Same with a guy who drove at Le Mans in the same period. He couldn't remember for sure the colour of the seats he'd spent many hours sitting in. He'd had other things on his mind at the time, I think.................... You're absolutely right to question because I too would love to see a definite answer and it's only by taking another look that these things are resolved (or not!!). Regards Dave A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringbag Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) From 'THE AEROPLANE' Sept 1934 "The Comet ordered by Mr. and Mrs. Mollinson will be painted black with gold letterring. MessersCampbell Black and Scott have chosen red with white letters. That for Messers Rubin and Waller will be green with white letters." Whilst there is no specific mention of the trim colours, I believe that had these been different from the colours specified for the lettering, then mention of that fact would surely have been included in the preceeding description. Chris. Edited February 10, 2011 by stringbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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