1:72 VC-10

[xffw45343tg]

75 "votes" so far - for something that was described as "a bit of fun". Many vote without commenting. Like many buy without joining forums.

It would seem unwise to try and conclude anything from such a small sample in such context.

You are, of course, entitled to your view Marty. My view is one of, erm, surprise I guess - that some are so keen to find reasons why something can't happen that patently can. I don't get why people don't fall into 2 camps on any "I wish someone made..." topics - supportive or silent. What's the motive for being otherwise?

If someone does make one, I promise I won't force you to buy it.

[marty_hopkirk]

75 "votes" so far - for something that was described as "a bit of fun".

Hardly a compelling business case, I venture.

Not keen but pointing out reality.

Marty...

Edited February 15, 2011 by marty_hopkirk

[xffw45343tg]

Hardly a compelling business case, I venture.

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago:

It would seem unwise to try and conclude anything from such a small sample in such context.

[Kev1n]

actually I can't help feeling that anybody saying it can't or won't happen based on these comments on this forum isn't really looking at the wider picture or taking marketing into account.

I agree £150k is a lot of money to spend on creating a new model, especially one the size that 1/72 scale VC10 would be.

Since it would be *big* and not cheap to buy, it's initial sales target might seem a bit low if limited to;

mature modellers with a disposable income and the interest in the subject.

But...

Keeping in mind that 1/48th scale has become very popluar with older modellers - who fall into the mature/disposable income bracket - because of the easier nature of build due to bigger size and the ability then to increase the level of detail (and bump up the price...), a 1/72 scale VC10 is still 1/72 scale...any additional detail will still be small to less keen eyes.

Which in turn might seem to decrease the potential sales.

However...

The VC10 is considered an iconic British aircraft (even tho' it didnt sell well) and has served with the RAF for over 30 years. That alone makes it a desirable kit and *if* it's construction and parts numbers is not in the same arena as hasgawa multi-detail 1/48th kits, but still allows for the use of aftermarket or scratchbuilt extras, then it should be priced within reach of most people - and be buildable in it's oob form for all levels of ability.

So...

By manufacturing it as a 2-version kit (long one or short one) and including both RAF and BOAC/BA decals, marketing widely enough nationwide and elsewhere, airfix should be able to make money on it.

The kit does have to be right tho' - it should look like a VC10/SuperVC10, even if one or two minor areas arent quite right.

I could live with that and so could the majority. The nit-picking types mentioned above are in a minority I think

.

[garryrussell]

Actually it would make sense if it was a more general stab at the two basic versions

Those that want every detail right would re work and replace the bits anyway, so in away the kit might just as well be done as a basic and let those make the mods they are not going to be happy with if moulded and the rest will be happy with it as it is

This would keep the cost down a lot.

Garry

[pigsty]

The VC10 is considered an iconic British aircraft (even tho' it didnt sell well) and has served with the RAF for over 30 years. That alone makes it a desirable kit and *if* it's construction and parts numbers is not in the same arena as hasgawa multi-detail 1/48th kits, but still allows for the use of aftermarket or scratchbuilt extras, then it should be priced within reach of most people - and be buildable in it's oob form for all levels of ability.

Apologies to Kirk for continuing the pessimism, but I think the VC10 is badly handicapped by not being a combat aircraft*. It's old, so in a few years' time a lot fewer people will remember it, and it's not American. Have you seen some of the "why bother with that?" comments on other sites about the Valiant? Plus, there's the resistance to paying money that is exhibited time and again all over the interweb. All this says to me that the actual buying pool will be too small to warrant the investment.

People have cited the Heller 707 and the Airfix Concorde. There's been precious few others.

* or even an ex-combat aircraft, like the Victor K.Mk.2

Edited February 16, 2011 by pigsty

[marty_hopkirk]

All this says to me that the actual buying pool will be too small to warrant the investment.

Exactly. As the advert went.

It would not be an insignificant sized kit in 72 and the investment would be accordingly sized.

Marty...

[Roland Pulfrew]

It would not be an insignificant sized kit in 72 and the investment would be accordingly sized.

Oh purleease!

The E3D was kitted by Airfix in 1/72 and the VC10 is of a very similar size to the E3D so we can discount that one.

E3D also hardly a "combat aircraft" so we can discount that one.

Airfix kitted the Nimrod MR1/R1/MR2 at the end of its operational service so we can discount that one.

I can't see that there was any more demand for the Nimrod in comparison to the VC10 so we can discount that one.

Airfix managed to do the Nimrod for £39.99 - now lets assume that raw materials have gone up in price, and a 1/72nd VC10 kit would require more raw material than a 1/72nd MR2 so lets assume 49.99 or even 59.99. People are paying £120+ for Spitfires and Mosquitoes so not a particularly expensive kit in comparison so we can discount that. And how much is a 1/48 Vulcan going to cost!!

Now the VC10 was built in similar numbers as the Nimrod, but can be done by civil modellers (BOAC, Nigerian, East African, Gulf Air, MEA) and military modellers (C1, C1K, K2, K3, K4) so a much broader range of options than the Nimrod so we can see that as very much a positive benefit (even if the lots of the decals come from the after-market manufacturers).

The Nimrod must have been a bit of a gamble for Airfix but it was a successful gamble so why not a VC10.

And how many people honestly have the space for a 1/48th Vulcan? And I would guess that a 1/48th Vulcan is going to require a lot more raw material than a 1/72nd VC10 so its cost is going to be pretty high, if they can justify production of that kit they can justify the cost of a 1/72 VC10.

And the VC10 will have done more years in service than the E3D and the Nimrod so its not as if it isn't a significant aircraft aircraft in aviation history. Companies like Corgi seem to be doing all right with VC10 models so there must be a market.

Come on Airfix; you know you want to!

[marty_hopkirk]

Companies like Corgi seem to be doing all right with VC10 models so there must be a market.

That's 144, if a new kit of VC-10 does come along from a 'mainstreamer', it's almost certainly going to be in that scale.

I'm not so sure the Airfix Nimrod was a huge success, given the price slashing and dumping into the bargain bins that occurred - Nimrod had the advantage of being military subject as well.

I would prefer a 72 VC-10 over a quarter scale Vulcan, in fact I have little interest in Vulcan. But, as a commercial proposition it's got more legs in it and that's life.

Marty...

Edited February 19, 2011 by marty_hopkirk

[general melchett]

Well as a scratchbuilder I'd be very happy to just see a mainstream VC10 in any guise! after building the 1/144th Skybolt version I would love to build all the paper proposed military versions, Skybolt, Poffler,AEW etc....

Technically the size wouldn't be a big problem as the Nimrod, E3D, 707, Concorde etc proved but from a commercial view....well that's a different matter,for as Marty points out the Nimrods made it to the bargain buckets very quickly, I saw one go for £12 at Elvington last year.... (same goes for the big TSR 2).

As for pricing...difficult one, around the £50 mark would seem right in the current climate, but who knows.................never dreamt I'd see Airfix knock out a 72nd Valiant!!

[zero]

I'm not so sure the Airfix Nimrod was a huge success, given the price slashing and dumping into the bargain bins that occurred - Nimrod had the advantage of being military subject as well.

Marty...

Airfix has done this all the time, several year ago I was buying lightnings from a shop in hatfield for £10 cheaper than list, it no different to what Revell do eact year, ie clear the wearhouse, make way for new stock. (and this was way before Airfix was even slightly in problems)

ie it's the Nimrods, and Canberras turn to be cleared, in a few years, it will be the lightnings being sold off cheap, and the Nimrods and Canberras every one will be waiting for to be re-released. just like it the FR46/47 and Lightnings people are waiting for today.

happens every new season, just go in to modelzone, or hobbycraft and all the stuff that going to be de-listed is being cleared, ie last year Revell were clearing F-105's (mine was £7.50) and Chinooks at silly prices. I bought one for £18.99 now there £25.00 and more on Evilbay in less than a year......

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-48-scale-revell-ch...=item3a6336ef58

Dave

[Roland Pulfrew]

Nimrod had the advantage of being military subject as well.

That would of course be as opposed to the military VC10 C1, VC10 C1K, VC10 K2, VC10 K3 and VC10 K4 I presume.

And whilst there has been a significant drop in Nimrod prices, who is taking the "loss"? Is it Airfix, or the shops selling at the discount price?

Personally I think Airfix, or any of the other mainstream manufacturers, could do a 1/72 VC10. they just need to have some vision. The options available are quite wide in comparison to some types that have been produced. I don't think the price would be exorbitant in comparison to some. It would provide a boost to after-market producers, just as the did for Nimrod (AEW3 conversion and additional weapons) and TSR2 (weapons) did.

Although there may only be 75 or so "votes" on here, have a look a on other sites and VC10 always gets lots of "votes". IMHO we need a VC10 more than we need a Valiant or Vulcan.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Roland Pulfrew

[general melchett]

we need a VC10 more than we need a Valiant or Vulcan.

Oh no, don't say that....at least not until the Airfix Valiant is on the shelves then I wholeheartedly agree..

[marty_hopkirk]

Airfix has done this all the time, several year ago I was buying lightnings from a shop in hatfield for £10 cheaper than list, it no different to what Revell do eact year, ie clear the wearhouse, make way for new stock. (and this was way before Airfix was even slightly in problems)

ie it's the Nimrods, and Canberras turn to be cleared, in a few years, it will be the lightnings being sold off cheap, and the Nimrods and Canberras every one will be waiting for to be re-released. just like it the FR46/47 and Lightnings people are waiting for today.

happens every new season, just go in to modelzone, or hobbycraft and all the stuff that going to be de-listed is being cleared, ie last year Revell were clearing F-105's (mine was £7.50) and Chinooks at silly prices. I bought one for £18.99 now there £25.00 and more on Evilbay in less than a year......

You mix up huge success with making the money back or into modest profit - which I'm sure Nimrod did for Airfix. Nimrod was limited edition for a number of reasons - one being it didn't take up any warehouse [note the spelling] space - which begs a number of questions.

The essential point of this debate, if Nimrod did not 'do it' for Airfix- what chance of the mainstreamers producing a VC-10 in 72?

That would of course be as opposed to the military VC10 C1, VC10 C1K, VC10 K2, VC10 K3 and VC10 K4 I presume.

QED

Marty...

Edited February 19, 2011 by marty_hopkirk

[Roland Pulfrew]

Nimrod had the advantage of being military subject as well.

Marty...

QUOTE (Roland Pulfrew @ Feb 19 2011, 02:12 PM) *

That would of course be as opposed to the military VC10 C1, VC10 C1K, VC10 K2, VC10 K3 and VC10 K4 I presume.

QED

Marty...

Marty

That would be QED to me of course!!

Edited February 19, 2011 by Roland Pulfrew

[zero]

You mix up huge success with making the money back or into modest profit - which I'm sure Nimrod did for Airfix. Nimrod was limited edition for a number of reasons - one being it didn't take up any warehouse [note the spelling] space - which begs a number of questions.

The essential point of this debate, if Nimrod did not 'do it' for Airfix- what chance of the mainstreamers producing a VC-10 in 72?

QED

Marty...

Marty

I really don't see where I mentioned anywhere About airfix making a profit (or not) what I did say is the Airfix, clear old stock in this manner the same as clothes shops clear winter fashion, before winter has ended.

Also models are not like frozen chickens, ie you can't return to a frozen chicken four or five years later, and it still be useable? Models you can, ie there is a cost of re-use factored in to the process, and, be it Airfix have made a massive profit, any profit, or no profit, in a few year time the moulds/cad drawing will be re-used and production costs are then minimal each time the kit is repopped.

Ie how much cost will there be to Airfix repopping the Lightning F6, (2nd or 3rd time it been used?) the same will apply to the Nimrod then, as does to the TSR-2MS today!!!

Not only that, but I seem to remember the Nimrod being heavily preordered, long before it release, so if Airfix continued the prodution run, after deciding to not class it as a limited edition kit, this could be the reason for the excess of kits, and lets be honest, at £16 a pop, it not like there making a loss, Is it?

None of us know the facts, but I can assure you, even at £9.99 a kit, Airfix are still not selling then kit, at a loss, or under the cost it takes to actually make.

Dave

[xffw45343tg]

I spent some time at Yeovilton yesterday talking to one of the very nice marketing chaps from Airfix (Mike's contact) about the process of selection of models to add to their range. This revealed that much of the conjecture above is just that; conjecture.

Guess what? Airfix bring new models to market in response to a combination of (shocker!) perceived customer demand, accessibility of a reference airframe (in the case of aircraft, naturally), extent to which the demand is already being met, and the tooling costs/complexity as assessed by the guys responsible for producing the masters. As an example, the Valiant exists because lots of people asked for it and no-one else makes one.

So Kevin is largely right (who'd of thought I'd type that? ): If you want a 1:72 VC-10, make sure you let Airfix know rather than posting all the reasons why you will be disappointed.

[richellis]

No matter how much I want to see an airfix 1/72 VC 10, getting a few 1/144 ones in my hands would be great at the min!

[Airbusians]

You mix up huge success with making the money back or into modest profit - which I'm sure Nimrod did for Airfix. Nimrod was limited edition for a number of reasons - one being it didn't take up any warehouse [note the spelling] space - which begs a number of questions.

The essential point of this debate, if Nimrod did not 'do it' for Airfix- what chance of the mainstreamers producing a VC-10 in 72?

QED

Marty...

Hmmm, let's take a step back for a second and try to understand what's being said vs. what's going on.

The implication is that the Nimrod was not a sparkling success for Airfix as it is being dumped at £17.99 or £16.99. And that the Nimrod was a limited edition so that, amongst other reasons, it didn't take up warehouse space. Though isn't it true to say that one of the retailers offering Nimrod at a low price was Airfix themselves?

OK, so that's Nimrod.

Now, what's coming? Ah yes. Valiant. Why would Hornby allow Airfix to put out a Valiant? It isn't set to be a limited edition (so they're happy to fill ther warehouse with it?) And why would the Valiant be any more of a sparkling success than the Nimrod? Both are big kits. Both have similar price tags, both in terms of RRP and, presumably, kitting up in the first place. One could predict that demand for Valiant and Nimrod could be about the same. Surely the target demographic is similar (i.e. us oldies with a few quid burning a hole in our pockets). Both are a similar size. Similar price. Valiant doesn't have the same glamour attached as a Vulcan (Black Buck and longer service life, plus XH558). So why do Airfix believe a Valiant would work?

And now to my whole point. If they are convinced a Valiant will work, why is it any different to a 1/72 VC-10. Same demographic. Similar price point (bit higher, probably), better service history, option to add multiple versions and ability to hit military and civvy modellers alike with different boxings as Heller has withits 707 and Connie kits.

Frankly, the VC-10 could be argued to be a better bet than the Valiant...

In the end, it doesn't bother me chief - I just bought a Magna one from Hannants.

Dan

[kev67]

As said before the VC-10 would appeal to both military and civil modellers, and yes its would be big at over 2 feet long and the cost would probably be the same as the 1/24 Mossie, but I would certainly buy one.

[marty_hopkirk]

The implication is that the Nimrod was not a sparkling success for Airfix as it is being dumped at £17.99 or £16.99. And that the Nimrod was a limited edition so that, amongst other reasons, it didn't take up warehouse space. Though isn't it true to say that one of the retailers offering Nimrod at a low price was Airfix themselves?

The retailers over ordered and took the risk and the warehouse space. That was the point of it being a limited edition.

Now, what's coming? Ah yes. Valiant. Why would Hornby allow Airfix to put out a Valiant? It isn't set to be a limited edition (so they're happy to fill ther warehouse with it?) And why would the Valiant be any more of a sparkling success than the Nimrod? Both are big kits. Both have similar price tags, both in terms of RRP and, presumably, kitting up in the first place. One could predict that demand for Valiant and Nimrod could be about the same. Surely the target demographic is similar (i.e. us oldies with a few quid burning a hole in our pockets). Both are a similar size. Similar price. Valiant doesn't have the same glamour attached as a Vulcan (Black Buck and longer service life, plus XH558). So why do Airfix believe a Valiant would work?

No one knows yet if Valiant will be a success for Airfix or not. If it's not, it could herald the death knell for this type of kit.

And now to my whole point. If they are convinced a Valiant will work, why is it any different to a 1/72 VC-10. Same demographic. Similar price point (bit higher, probably), better service history, option to add multiple versions and ability to hit military and civvy modellers alike with different boxings as Heller has withits 707 and Connie kits.

The point is he demographic is different.

Frankly, the VC-10 could be argued to be a better bet than the Valiant.

In the end, it doesn't bother me chief - I just bought a Magna one from Hannants.

You have answered your own question methinks, but the the question to ask yourself if it such a sure bet and a cash cow, why has it not been produced before?

Marty...

[marty_hopkirk]

I really don't see where I mentioned anywhere About airfix making a profit (or not) what I did say is the Airfix, clear old stock in this manner the same as clothes shops clear winter fashion, before winter has ended.

The idea of the limited edition is Airfix didn't take the risk - they should have no stock to speak of to clear. It also begs the question about what constitutes a limited edition.

Not only that, but I seem to remember the Nimrod being heavily preordered,

In hindsight they clearly over ordered.

Marty...

Edited February 20, 2011 by marty_hopkirk

[Rob P]

Here's a question...

So how many of us have more than one example of a particular kit?

I for one have four Nimrods in the stash and will build all of them (well, the fourth will get built when I can get hold of an AEW3 conversion)

Working my way through 3 Concordes, one in each scheme. A pig of a kit I know, but Airfix (and Heller) were good enough to go to the effort of producing it.

Same goes for the TSR2 in 1:72, I have two.

So, back to the VC10... Would you invest in more than one if they were produced? I Would. One tanker in Hemp, one in BOAC markings and one in the scheme we all all remember, grey and white transport command.

[Rob P]

Whoops, double post. Please delete.

Edited February 20, 2011 by RobVXD

[kev67]

I have emailed Airfix for my request for the VC-10 in 1/72, if more people did the same, Airfix might take note, as they say "if you don't ask you don't get"

http://www.airfix.com/contact-us/