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Polikarpov R5


stevehed

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Very impressive! You should sign up with Massimo Tessitori's new VVS forum, and get some images of the completed model off to him so he can post them on his web site:

http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplanes/index.php

John

Hi John,

I'd be happy to post some pictures but I've noticed that the link posted by Will is operating again. Been on MT's site and noted a discussion in which a JT was involved about the old site and the new running together. I am assuming the two links are connected? Can you advise on the situation at present and which site is to take precedence?

Cheers,

Steve

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Hi John,

I'd be happy to post some pictures but I've noticed that the link posted by Will is operating again. Been on MT's site and noted a discussion in which a JT was involved about the old site and the new running together. I am assuming the two links are connected? Can you advise on the situation at present and which site is to take precedence?

Cheers,

Steve

Nice work! I suggest you use the old site, now that it's back in operation.

John

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If correct, that scuppers my plans for the Soviet Foriegn Service GB too!

I'll reserve judgement though 'till I get home tonight and have a bit more of a poke about.

Still a nice looking model though Steve, whatever ;)

Cheers

Cliff

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It would seem I've got it wrong.

Regards, Steve

http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplane...hp?showtopic=74

Like Red Green said, "Don't give up. I'm on your side. We're all in this together." I feel a sense of involvement for passing myself off as an R-5 expert but not knowing about the use of the SSS version in the Spanish Civil War. The modifications Konstantin lists don't look too overwhelming, although the wing root fairing might be tricky, especially with the rigging already in place. FWIW, the Modelist Konstructor profile for which I previously gave a link includes at least two pages of drawings for the SSS. If you're not up for downloading this document, PM me and I'll get a copy of the drawings off to you one way or another. If you do attempt the modifications, you'll have a truly unique model!

John

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Like Red Green said, "Don't give up. I'm on your side. We're all in this together." I feel a sense of involvement for passing myself off as an R-5 expert but not knowing about the use of the SSS version in the Spanish Civil War. The modifications Konstantin lists don't look too overwhelming, although the wing root fairing might be tricky, especially with the rigging already in place. FWIW, the Modelist Konstructor profile for which I previously gave a link includes at least two pages of drawings for the SSS. If you're not up for downloading this document, PM me and I'll get a copy of the drawings off to you one way or another. If you do attempt the modifications, you'll have a truly unique model!

John

Hi John,

Can't post yet on Soviet warplanes so can't ask Konstantin directly but have been going over what information I have gleaned from one of your links and the Spanish site I posted a link for on page one. Very confusing but not yet convinced that all R5's in Spain were R5SSS types. Not finished research yet but will post details. One thing I have learned though is that the " chassis fairings " were apparently removed from most aircraft in Dec 36. Does that help the project, Cliff.

Thanks for the offer. I'll have another look at the last link but it looks quite frightening and I may have to get back to you.

Cheers, Steve

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Does that help the project, Cliff.

Cheers, Steve

Hi Steve

At a stroke, I'm afraid, all my plans have changed! Hunting around for R5 images this evening I came across this beauty

5005_1.jpg

I think I'm in love again :wub:

Looks like I will indeed have to find something else for the Foreign Service GB.....

I will still be following your Spanish R5 saga though, so please do let us know what you discover.

Cheers

Cliff

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http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20000.htm

Right here goes. I'm no expert and quite prepared to be proved wrong but this is my take on the Spanish R5 saga. The initial information comes from John's link above. As it's Russian I copied the address and pasted it into the google translator. From the introductory section I garnered that the original R5, that is P5 in Russian, had an M17B engine of 500hp and was an army co-op / light bomber. There was a sturmovik version with additional mgs in pods above the lower wings. The next version had the improved M17F engine and was desiginated CAS. The P5sss sturmovik type was a derivation of this model. The intro goes on to say ..

" Since end of Nov 36 CCC,(Russian for SSS), fought in Spain as part of the Repub AF. Originally used as gunships, near Madrid, but since mid Dec moved to role of light bombers, but later began to be used at night. In March 37 the CAS participated in the defeat of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in the French Highway( I presume this must be near Guadalajara). Last aircraft of this type served in Repub AF til end of war, then with Franco til 1945."

Not quite verbatim but pretty close.

This same link has many excellent b/w photos and some coloured profiles. All of the Spanish profiles are designated as P5sss except one which has a CAS classification. There is a photo which also appears on the Spanish usarios site which was linked to on page one of this thread and the picture quotation is ..

" One of the very rare images of P5sss the 15th Air Group which preserved the chassis fairings. On most aircraft of this type were very quickly removed back in Dec 36."

There is another photo directly above this one which shows a Spanish R5sss which shows the wing mgs mounted within the wings and I believe implies that the synchronised mg remained in place, that is five forward firing weapons.

I've already mentioned the Spanish site and the claim that R5's only possessed rear mounted defensive armament. This looks to be a spurious claim in the light of the above unless they were removed at a later date. This site also states that a sturmovik version was evaluated in Spain and that it was armed with four or six mgs positioned below the wings. A figure of 31 is mentioned and that they were returned to the USSR. This would make a total of 62 R5 but I cannot find any agreement on this number. The source is quoted as lau 2 and I cannot find an identification on the site.

Most commentators quote the number of R5 in Spain as 31. In Arms for Spain by Gerald Howson he has published lists of equipment that arrived in Spain on shipping sent from Russia. The R5's are listed as sss type but it is clear from some of the comments that have been added that there are some discrepancies in the descriptions of other weapons. Based on the above secondary sources all I can surmise is that it appears possible that not all of the 31 R5's delivered to Spain in Nov 36 were sss types. Until a Russian speaking expert either vouches for, or de-bunks, the sources on John's link I'm going to stop now and leave the kit as it is.

Cheers, Steve

Edited by stevehed
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Hi Steve, :)

Thanks to the moderators, I can finally post here!

I only tried to help with your R-5 model… :closedeyes:

At the end it’s your model and your choice, you may always say: ”if Republicans ever had had a R-5, it would have looked like this!”

It’s only a model!!!

If we talk about the real plane:

There was no such thing as CAS. Maybe your automatic translator sometimes translates SSS as CAS? Web page you quote lists only:

  1. R-5 reconnaissance plane
  2. R-5Sh shturmovik with 4 x PV-1 machine guns in wing containers
  3. SSS high speed shturmovik with ShKAS machine guns
  4. R-5T torpedo carrier

CAS did not exist

Only 31 planes were shipped to Spain, no returned planes, no mysteries there!!!

Howson is a reliable source – if he says it was SSS, it was SSS.

Another authority is S. Abrosov: in his books (in Russian only) it’s SSS.

Very confusing but not yet convinced that all R5's in Spain were R5SSS types.
all I can surmise is that it appears possible that not all of the 31 R5's delivered to Spain in Nov 36 were sss types. :hmmm:

Looks like a hypothesis and no evidence to support it. :nono:

It is good that you made an effort to learn more about R-5. I hope you found R-5 story interesting. Too bad you didn’t do your homework before you started to build your model.

Happy modeling, :bye:

KL

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Very interesting stuff. Consider yourself a martyr for the cause then Steve!

Cliff, that civil (?) R5 really is a cool looking machine. The Soviet aircraft industry certainly knew how to make a 'sleek' aircraft in the 30s, a fact that a lot of us western modellers forget when we are presented by a whole host of kits of utilitarian Patriotic War subjects.

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Hi Steve, :)

Thanks to the moderators, I can finally post here!

I only tried to help with your R-5 model… :closedeyes:

At the end it’s your model and your choice, you may always say: ”if Republicans ever had had a R-5, it would have looked like this!”

It’s only a model!!!

If we talk about the real plane:

There was no such thing as CAS. Maybe your automatic translator sometimes translates SSS as CAS? Web page you quote lists only:

  1. R-5 reconnaissance plane
  2. R-5Sh shturmovik with 4 x PV-1 machine guns in wing containers
  3. SSS high speed shturmovik with ShKAS machine guns
  4. R-5T torpedo carrier

CAS did not exist

Only 31 planes were shipped to Spain, no returned planes, no mysteries there!!!

Howson is a reliable source – if he says it was SSS, it was SSS.

Another authority is S. Abrosov: in his books (in Russian only) it’s SSS.

Looks like a hypothesis and no evidence to support it. :nono:

It is good that you made an effort to learn more about R-5. I hope you found R-5 story interesting. Too bad you didn’t do your homework before you started to build your model.

Happy modeling, :bye:

KL

Hi KL,

Thought you would end up here. Seems you had better luck with the Brit moderators than I did with those of Soviet warplanes. I can only quote in my defence that I wrote what I saw. I have just revisited the site using google translate and the CAS remains. To add to that already quoted it goes on to say that in Aug 38 P 5 and CAS participated in a brief military campaign at Lake Hassan. My thoughts were that the CAS may be the R Z Natasha but the site goes on to say that as a light bomber the P 5 was gradually replaced by the P Z from 1937 thereby clearly differentiating the two types. However, when I viewed the site in Russian all the colour profiles are quoted as CCC or R 5sss. But when in English mode the profile above the Nationialist P 5CCC is cited as CAS from 1st night's Air Force squadron of Republican Spain, Dec 37. So I am going to accept that the vagaries of the google translator leave me at a distinct disadvantage in this discussion and accept your interpretation of the Russian as correct.

As for the kit you're right, it's only a model. If another one turns up I'll definitely try to turn it into a triple s. But at the moment it looks like a Spanish bomber to me, minus the wing mgs and fairings, which, hypothesis or not, it seems logical to me would have been removed during the types service in Spain.

Thank you for participating in this thread. I'm sure I speak for others in saying that our knowledge of this aircraft has been dramatically increased by yourself and JT.

Regards, Steve

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi there,

I just saw this thread the other night. I got a Fiat CR.32 kit just after Xmas and while trying to research the Spanish Civil War I found a copy of Frank Tinker's book 'Some Still Live' in the library. He often referred to the Rasantes and it took me a while to figure out they were R-5s. I found an eBayer in the UK who was selling these Pioneer 2 kits new for about £3.50 each so got one sent out to me.

I have to say I am really enjoying this build. Its a very simple kit but goes together pretty well with a little bit of care. It's comparatively big too, especially beside a scale I-15. The only mods are a set of exhausts cannabalised from another kit, for which I cut space in the cowling, and a new rear gun. I also had to make a piece to hold the propeller in place.

It's great to see this build and I thoroughly recommend it to anyone else.

Cheers

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Someone "bumped" the Scalemodels.ru South Front R-5 thread yesterday looking for news on the anticipated new 1/72 kit release, but so far, no replies:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_18068.html

John

that's how new 1/72 R-5 should look like - the author of the master model assembled resin masters.

Dishmodels.ru

Ilya

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that's how new 1/72 R-5 should look like - the author of the master model assembled resin masters.

Dishmodels.ru

Ilya

Wow - those are beautiful! Thanks, Ilya - I bookmarked that page immediately! Do you know if South Front still plans to manufacture this kit?

Thank you again!

John

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Hello, John

Sorry, but the only information I have came from Scalemodels.ru thread you mentioned earlier - no exact dates so far...

BR

ILya

Thanks for your reply, Ilya! Obviously I'm very interested in this kit. The translation of the Dishmodels page is here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n....htm%3Fp%3D9482

It's often difficult to get the exact sense of the author's original meaning in these automatic translations; Muchichko speaks favourably of ICM (for whom he mastered several kits in the past), but his final comment suggests that South Front is still the company who will release the product. I'll try to be patient... ;)

BR;

John

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It's often difficult to get the exact sense of the author's original meaning in these automatic translations; Muchichko speaks favourably of ICM (for whom he mastered several kits in the past), but his final comment suggests that South Front is still the company who will release the product. I'll try to be patient... ;)

BR;

John

ICM received considerable amount of critics for the quality of mouldings and low quality control.

Muchichko says he always pays particular attention to the surface quality of his masters. Valentin considers his cooperation with ICM team as his great success, but states that he is not the right person to address moulding quality claims to.

Back to the Scalemodels thread, Sergey Trufanov, who, I bielive, has connection with South Front, wrote that R-5 (actually, three modifications, R-5, passenger PR-5 an R-5SSS, with some others to follow later) will be high-pressure injected kits. This will allow them keep all these surface details, but it will take some time to set up process, as this will be one of the company's first efforts in high-pressure injection moulding

Best Regards

Ilya

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