What colours for desert Crusader, Shermans and Priests please

[mrcooljules]

Hi

I want to do my Armourfast tanks, and got some nice Bison decals....but i dont know what colours to use, it has the names, but its throwing me...

I do have a lot of WEM paints, along with humbrol etc so if anyone knows that would be great. i guess adding a little white for being 72nd scale.

also i cant find any images on how the top hatch opens on the Crusader, so would anyone have a nice clear fotos?

many thanks

[Test Graham]

Mike Starmer does a booklet that will explain it all for you, and there may be something on the MAFVA site. There is not a single simple answer because the camouflage changed several times, but if Bison give the colour names and you have the WEM paints, you should be OK. Can you perhaps give an example or two of what your problems are?

[mrcooljules]

Mike Starmer does a booklet that will explain it all for you, and there may be something on the MAFVA site. There is not a single simple answer because the camouflage changed several times, but if Bison give the colour names and you have the WEM paints, you should be OK. Can you perhaps give an example or two of what your problems are?

Hi, ta for the reply.

Bison say use blue black, light stone on the Shermans, but of course the Armourfast have no paint guide at all (and i dont have decals sheets for them, only basic images so will use generic spare decals i have)

I have stone and portland stone in WEM (i just bought them incase i needed em...2 years ago lol) as i bought a lot of greens US/Brit and German tank colours.

now i think about it, WEM should have a good few more, maybe the colours im missing like the blue black (im in the models room now, as this pc is sooooooooooooooo slow, so will check later when on the better machine)

ah yes the MAFRA site, i have that link on my other pc.

[Overhaulin]

Sorry can't find any decent pics.

But for cammo

North Africa: 1942 Two Colour Disruptive Pattern

B.S. Designation Official Shade Note Humbrol No.

Light Stone No.61 B.S.381-1930 Base Colour 121

Dark Green No.4 B.S.381-1939 Disruptive Pattern 75

Apparently, Crusader tanks serving in North Africa were also camouflaged in a Light Stone and Black disruptive pattern. An exception to the rule, but not too far off from the guidelines laid down by the War

Taken from here.

http://www.miniatures.de/camouflage-british.html

As Graham says schemes changed quiet a bit over time and theatre.

[mrcooljules]

Sorry can't find any decent pics.

But for cammo

North Africa: 1942 Two Colour Disruptive Pattern

B.S. Designation Official Shade Note Humbrol No.

Light Stone No.61 B.S.381-1930 Base Colour 121

Dark Green No.4 B.S.381-1939 Disruptive Pattern 75

Apparently, Crusader tanks serving in North Africa were also camouflaged in a Light Stone and Black disruptive pattern. An exception to the rule, but not too far off from the guidelines laid down by the War

Taken from here.

http://www.miniatures.de/camouflage-british.html

As Graham says schemes changed quiet a bit over time and theatre.

Thats a great help, im using the Airfix book to help locate where bits go.

I didnt trust the Italeri camo scheme, for the Sherman, as they have 2 options for decals, 2 years apart yet exactly the same paint camo scheme.

i like that website, i havent used it for a long time, since i lost the link on a dead laptop, but i liked it.

I guess they got sand weathered quite a lot...

[Test Graham]

There are entire books on Shermans in the desert - and I mean nice modelling books with lots of colour art. I'm certainly not going to attempt anything from memory.

WEM do a lot of suitable colours, including those for the Caunter scheme (which might apply to a Crusader?), and their website will let you know. However, if you can take the colour names from the Bison sheet then Mike's colour appendix on the MAFVA site will tell you how to get them from mixes.

[mrcooljules]

There are entire books on Shermans in the desert - and I mean nice modelling books with lots of colour art. I'm certainly not going to attempt anything from memory.

WEM do a lot of suitable colours, including those for the Caunter scheme (which might apply to a Crusader?), and their website will let you know. However, if you can take the colour names from the Bison sheet then Mike's colour appendix on the MAFVA site will tell you how to get them from mixes.

I have the concord sherman book, with some images for the desert schemes and is useful as im looking at it now, its where Bison picked a scheme from. useful text.

it seems lots of differences between II and III marks of crusaders, esp around the turret.

im using a couple of good images to add the stowage carried along the sides.

[ChrisITA]

A number of the shermans were also finished in light stone/ portland stone and black, contrary to the orders posted above

The North African theater saw more colour scheme and camouflage changes for the British and Commonwealth forces than the rest of the war put together, easily.

What Mk of Crusader it it? If it is 2pdr and internal mantlet its a MkI, if its 2pdr and external mantlet its a late mki/ MkII, if its internal mantlet and 6pdr its a MkIII. There are a few other differences, but these are the easiest way to spot them

Depending on what Mk it is I can supply you with any picture you want of the hatch and opening arrangements, and a more definite steer on painting

Chris

[mrcooljules]

A number of the shermans were also finished in light stone/ portland stone and black, contrary to the orders posted above

The North African theater saw more colour scheme and camouflage changes for the British and Commonwealth forces than the rest of the war put together, easily.

What Mk of Crusader it it? If it is 2pdr and internal mantlet its a MkI, if its 2pdr and external mantlet its a late mki/ MkII, if its internal mantlet and 6pdr its a MkIII. There are a few other differences, but these are the easiest way to spot them

Depending on what Mk it is I can supply you with any picture you want of the hatch and opening arrangements, and a more definite steer on painting

Chris

Hi. ta for the reply. i belive its the II version.

http://armourfast.com/British-Armour/Crusa...II/prod_30.html

i have noticed quite a few differences, but sods law no clear foto of the hatch on this one (i think i will have to get a millicast figure)

i dont expect to get all the desert campain armour i do 100% but i like to try and get as close as i reasonably can. or at least narrow down the year of vehicle with the correct year of paint scheme. etc.

[ChrisITA]

Hi. ta for the reply. i belive its the II version.

http://armourfast.com/British-Armour/Crusa...II/prod_30.html

i have noticed quite a few differences, but sods law no clear foto of the hatch on this one (i think i will have to get a millicast figure)

i dont expect to get all the desert campain armour i do 100% but i like to try and get as close as i reasonably can. or at least narrow down the year of vehicle with the correct year of paint scheme. etc.

Good news and good news then. That is a MkII, and it looks pretty close to accurate (close enough at that scale unless you are a REAL Crusader nut anyway)

Even better news, there were only two schemes to chose from for the MkII; portland stone with balck disruptive, and plain portland stone

Here are some pics to get you in the mood

ALL PICS POSTED FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY

Note, if you are doing the disruptive, and contrary to the Armorfast plates, you need to paint the second, third and fourth roadwheels on the right hand side, and the second and third roadwheels on the left hand side the darker disruptive colour

I have a picture of the real thing with regards to the Crusader hatch but I don't have permission to post it I'm afraid. This pic of my model of the MkI shows it though. It was known as the 'sun roof' and was elimiated after the MkII due to a distressing habit of suddenly slamming shut and nearly decapitating the unwary commander when the tank was hit or ran into somthing that made it stop, or even if it braked too sharply! It worked by going up slightly then sliding back

[mrcooljules]

thanks, thats a great help...very much so.

i bought the WEM portland stone a couple of years ago for no reason lol. just incase of a future project and hey...here it is!.

would you receomend adding a little white to the stone for scale effect? I do have lots of aftermarket decals

the image of the turret hatch is a great help.

i added some metal stowage as i saw in a couple of fotos.

also thanks for the images with the crew, that will be useful too.

much app for the effort of the text n images, cracking :-)

[mrcooljules]

thanks, thats a great help...very much so.

i bought the WEM portland stone a couple of years ago for no reason lol. just incase of a future project and hey...here it is!.

would you receomend adding a little white to the stone for scale effect? I do have lots of aftermarket decals

the image of the turret hatch is a great help.

i added some metal stowage as i saw in a couple of fotos.

also thanks for the images with the crew, that will be useful too.

much app for the effort of the text n images, cracking :-)

oops another quick question....

the side skirts.. i have made 1 of the Armourfast kits so far, but i have seem images of different side skits, basicly just a angled front side part, nothing in the middle, and a simular angled part at the rear. do you have any info of the side skits? did they get damaged and sometimes removed? i like a little variety.

[mrcooljules]

This is one i completed so far. metal stowage and i added the 4 towing eyes at the front.

i gave the WEM portland stone a good mix and brush painted the underside to see how it is, im not really happy with it, so think i will wait to airbrush it in the near future.

[ChrisITA]

Some things you can add if you want: the brushguards for the headlamp (see the first and third pictures above), should be the work of a few seconds to drill 4 holes and add some wire, and the sunshield rails. These ran along the sides of the tank and were there to support a canvas and frame structure on top of the tank that would disguise it as a truck from the air (incidentally, this is the purpose of the countershaded road wheels - to make them look like truck wheels)

you don't have to add these, but these rails are what the stowage hangs from on the sand shields at the sides of the tank. These were metal strips attached with brackets, but in this scale you could get away with just a strip of plasticard either side.

Of course, as always this advice comes with the conscious rivet-counter's caveat: feel free to ignore it

[Andrew Jones]

oops another quick question....

the side skirts.. i have made 1 of the Armourfast kits so far, but i have seem images of different side skits, basicly just a angled front side part, nothing in the middle, and a simular angled part at the rear. do you have any info of the side skits? did they get damaged and sometimes removed? i like a little variety.

The side skirts seen in most photos are better known as sand shields and basically do "just what it says on the tin ", they have a dual function in that they help to keep the dust and sand down and prevent it being sucked into the engine and filters, but also help to prevent large dust clouds giving away the tanks position to an enemy. Most photos in the desrt show them in place and in good condition, probably as there was very little in the desert to damage them on. The other style of mudguards you mention were the european style and very rarely appeared on tanks in North Africa . Very early Crusader Mark 1 tanks in the desert had a style of sand shield similar to those seen on the earlier A13 cruisers.

[mrcooljules]

Some things you can add if you want: the brushguards for the headlamp (see the first and third pictures above), should be the work of a few seconds to drill 4 holes and add some wire, and the sunshield rails. These ran along the sides of the tank and were there to support a canvas and frame structure on top of the tank that would disguise it as a truck from the air (incidentally, this is the purpose of the countershaded road wheels - to make them look like truck wheels)

you don't have to add these, but these rails are what the stowage hangs from on the sand shields at the sides of the tank. These were metal strips attached with brackets, but in this scale you could get away with just a strip of plasticard either side.

Of course, as always this advice comes with the conscious rivet-counter's caveat: feel free to ignore it

thanks. i havent seen any fotos close up, so couldnt see the metal strips. i had noticed, the rubber tyres are the same as Centaurs, with holes, but i have no idea why. im not good enough to replicate this though

The side skirts seen in most photos are better known as sand shields and basically do "just what it says on the tin ", they have a dual function in that they help to keep the dust and sand down and prevent it being sucked into the engine and filters, but also help to prevent large dust clouds giving away the tanks position to an enemy. Most photos in the desrt show them in place and in good condition, probably as there was very little in the desert to damage them on. The other style of mudguards you mention were the european style and very rarely appeared on tanks in North Africa . Very early Crusader Mark 1 tanks in the desert had a style of sand shield similar to those seen on the earlier A13 cruisers.

thanks, yes those are the earlier ones i wasnt sure of. i guess only a rock etc would damage them, but wouldnt happen to all of them, or most of them. I think i will stick with the kits items :-)

[ChrisITA]

They changed to the larger sand shields because the early shields just weren't effective enough at keeping the dust down. The RAF did not have anything like the air superiority in Africa that it enjoyed in Europe (although more than parity) so Stukas and marauding fighters were a problem. Dust clouds bring danger from the air

Also, what the Afrika Corps lacked in tanks, it made up for in artillery, especially 88s, so it wouldn't to to signpost your advance too much before you actually got there

If course, the Crusader was designed for European battlefields and really didn't like the heat and dust, largely due to the fact the engine was a barely modified aero engine of WWI vintage (the Liberty L12)broken down tanks don't produce too much dust!

[mrcooljules]

They changed to the larger sand shields because the early shields just weren't effective enough at keeping the dust down. The RAF did not have anything like the air superiority in Africa that it enjoyed in Europe (although more than parity) so Stukas and marauding fighters were a problem. Dust clouds bring danger from the air

Also, what the Afrika Corps lacked in tanks, it made up for in artillery, especially 88s, so it wouldn't to to signpost your advance too much before you actually got there

If course, the Crusader was designed for European battlefields and really didn't like the heat and dust, largely due to the fact the engine was a barely modified aero engine of WWI vintage (the Liberty L12)broken down tanks don't produce too much dust!

thanks. in one of my bookd i have it explained the basis and upgrades upto the cromwell and then beyond. and yeah, having lived out in the desert, overheating....ouch.

the very thin coat of portland stone i did on the underneath of the tank, now its dried im happy with it, so think i will had a nice thin laywer tonight and left it dry

[ChrisITA]

thanks. in one of my bookd i have it explained the basis and upgrades upto the cromwell and then beyond. and yeah, having lived out in the desert, overheating....ouch.

the very thin coat of portland stone i did on the underneath of the tank, now its dried im happy with it, so think i will had a nice thin laywer tonight and left it dry

From What I've heard WEM are the best matches you can get out of the pot. Unfortunately I'm an acrylics man though (Don't get on with the thinners)

[Edgar]

Found this in a file in Kew; any help?

Edgar

P.S. There was only the Sherman, nothing else, sorry.

[mrcooljules]

Found this in a file in Kew; any help?

Edgar

P.S. There was only the Sherman, nothing else, sorry.

what green does it say? im in the models room now, and just checked my WEM paints, i have a middle bronze green, but i have a dark alive drab for N afirca and italy....so that looks a good bet :-)

thats the only image i have that shows all sides and top etc. so yes its a good help ta

[Edgar]

P.E. No.1 HA/NIV/387, and the "Desert Pink" is Z.I. HA/NIV/386; and, no, i haven't a clue what it means.

Edgar

[mrcooljules]

P.E. No.1 HA/NIV/387, and the "Desert Pink" is Z.I. HA/NIV/386; and, no, i haven't a clue what it means.

Edgar

ah i have a desert pink by WEM.. could be that.

[Test Graham]

The green you want is described by Mike Starmer (and he is reprinting the original order) as Dark Olive Green PFI Disruptive. He suggests a mix of 2 parts Humbrol 116 to one part Humbrol 150. This was before the WEM paints came out. To my eye, the tin lid of the WEM paint Dark Olive Green (North Africa) is close to the paint chip Mike provides. Perhaps a little darker, but that's often the case. Artwork tends to show it as lighter.

[mrcooljules]

The green you want is described by Mike Starmer (and he is reprinting the original order) as Dark Olive Green PFI Disruptive. He suggests a mix of 2 parts Humbrol 116 to one part Humbrol 150. This was before the WEM paints came out. To my eye, the tin lid of the WEM paint Dark Olive Green (North Africa) is close to the paint chip Mike provides. Perhaps a little darker, but that's often the case. Artwork tends to show it as lighter.

thats great thanks.

im not a fan of mixing paints, only because i might do one this week, then want to do another in a year or so, so forget or dont get it exactly the same...although i know no 2 paints were exactly the same esp if different sources.