Airfix- lets see now

[John]

It will be intriguing, especially given Hornby's "track (no pun intended) record". Their first A3 (aka"Flying Scotsman") loco was issued what 20-25 years ago? <snip>

Much longer than that! I got one for my Christmas when I was still at Primary School so thats Xmas 1972 or before, and probably before. It was in BR Green rather than the more familiar LNER livery and came with 3 Pullman coaches. There was an orange bulb in the firebox as well.

In later years I replaced the moulded on handrails, repainted, relined, redecalled and flogged it!

John

[Barrovian]

The following in 1/72

Argosy

britannia

shackleton

Britannia

Belfast

Hastings

HMAFV LRRSV Spitfire Hurricane Stirling etc

HMAFV Pinnace 13003

The following in 1/48

Westland Sea King HAR Mk 3

Gnat

Jet Provost

Dominie

Jetstream

Defender

Tucano

Argosy

Shackleton

Lancaster BBMF

Spitfire LF Mk 14 BBMF

HMAFV LRRSV Spitfire Hurricane Stirling etc

HMAFV Pinnace 13003

I live in hope of modelling my entire RAF carreer (including Cosford training Argosy etc ) in 1/48 th scale

Britannia

Belfast

Hastings

Hornet

In 1/32

Westland Sea King HAR Mk 3

Gnat

Jet Provost

Dominie

Jetstream

Defender

Tucano

Argosy

britannia

shackleton

Tornado New Tool all marks

Jaguar

Harrier New Tool all marks from GR3 onwards

Sea Harrier

Hawk T Mk 1a

HMAFV LRRSV Spitfire Hurricane Stirling etc

HMAFV Pinnace 13003

[Geoff_B]

As for the Limited Edition saga, I just don't buy the notion at all. Surely, if you spend a load of cash on a set of moulds, the only way you will ever get your money back is by pouring plastic through them. So if the Nimrod is confined to a relatively short run, it's sure to be produced again at some stage when the judgement is made that there's sufficient demand for more. Otherwise what do you do? Just leave the moulds unused? Doesn't make commercial sense - it'd be like buying a cow and not drinking/selling the milk! I would think that if Hornby get to a stage where all the Nimrods have been sold but that they don't think there's a big enough demand for another run, they'd just sell the mould to someone else. Either way, it comes back sooner or later just like every other kit does, unless something drastic happens to the mould in the meantime.

Tim

The problem was that Airfix used to do continuous runs on its live moulds, after the initial boom of demand , the warehouses were restocked and then the stuff just trickled out resulting in large amounts of product sat in the warehouse gathering dust and loosing money. Prior to the TSR2 the warehouses had been cleared of stock to recoup some of the £4 million worth stock not selling, thus the gift sets and clearance lines appeared as it was better to sell at minimal cost than loose money holding them in storage.

Partly due to this Airfix relocated their warehousing to a third party in Southampton and closed the Hull one, so the stock would come in from Heller in France in smaller batches and then be redistributed to the stockists.

Just think back to a few years ago when the likes of the 1/24 kits were being sold off for about a third thier RRP !!.

The TSR2 was the first kit to be issued in the new method, as the marketing team had only guestimated 7000 sales total demand and the minimum cost effective run was 10,000. Thus the brain child was to use the 10k limited run as a sales ploy to attract a few more sales to ensure the surplus production did end up sat in a warehouse. As it happens this was way too succesful as they had under estimated demand together with a large number of people picking up on the horde to resell policy. Production had to be increased by half again to ensure that the orders placed by their customers could be met.

With the Nimrod they again didn't want a large stock in thier warehouse, whilst initial demand will be high, the long term sales are some what limited, only a few of us can afford the cost and space of multiple versions and younger buyers will likely be detered by the cost and size preferring the likes of the more common subjects like Typhoon, Harrier and Lifeboat. However this time a fixed production order wasnt set until after the orders from the wholesalers had been recieved. As it happens the order is over 20,000 which Trev mentioned was somewhat larger than Trumpeter generally produce for themseleves for thier own lines. The trend these days is for batches of small runs of only a few thousand per model (ever notice how many of the new Trumpeter/Dragon lines sell out on thier initial release and we have to await the 2nd production run !).

The other aspect is that the tools are not limited run, whilst they probably wont last as long as the older 60's jobs thats are still in use today, they are still capable of further production runs once the dmand is there to warrant a 2nd run. The other aspect is that whilst the tools may be of lower quality and endurance they are created and cut by computer so tools can be replaced should they ware out too quickly. Its the getting the cadcam right these days rather than a tool maker taking weeks to carve a new tool.

Maybe we should get Trev to do his history of Airfix lecture to all modellers at SMW as its quite interesting to learn how the industry actually works rather than the way many perceive it to !

Geoff

[Greg B]

I know I'm getting on a bit, but I really don't remember you blowing chocolate biccies up me aristotle! You didn't use one of your date drug thingies did you Greg?

Trust me mate, I'd have to use it on myself before I went near your Arris!

[thx6667]

The other aspect is that the tools are not limited run, whilst they probably wont last as long as the older 60's jobs thats are still in use today, they are still capable of further production runs once the dmand is there to warrant a 2nd run. The other aspect is that whilst the tools may be of lower quality and endurance they are created and cut by computer so tools can be replaced should they ware out too quickly. Its the getting the cadcam right these days rather than a tool maker taking weeks to carve a new tool.

Though to forestall any possible confusion here, the TSR.2, Nimrod, Canberras et al moulds are standard, high grade steel tools, no "soft" or "limitd run" types.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

As a diversion, and a possible insight into Hornby's methodology, the history of their Flying Scotsman model is roughly as follows (this is all from memory, cos I'm at work at the moment):

Original model issued c1968

Minor changes made over the ensuing years, mainly to the mechanical side

Completely revised model issued c1981

Again, minor changes made over the years

Updated version of 1981 model issued c1998, with added detail and other changes

All-new model issued c2005, with much-improved body and chassis compared to earlier model

Now, if they apply the same philosophy to the Airfix range, we could be on a winner. We just have to remember to buy the things when they come out...

[AnonymousAA72]

As a diversion, and a possible insight into Hornby's methodology, the history of their Flying Scotsman model is roughly as follows (this is all from memory, cos I'm at work at the moment):

Original model issued c1968

Minor changes made over the ensuing years, mainly to the mechanical side

Completely revised model issued c1981

Again, minor changes made over the years

Updated version of 1981 model issued c1998, with added detail and other changes

All-new model issued c2005, with much-improved body and chassis compared to earlier model

Now, if they apply the same philosophy to the Airfix range, we could be on a winner. We just have to remember to buy the things when they come out...

Thanks for that update Obi - the force is truly with you!

...and thats the point I was making. Hornby's 1998 mould is still okay and will still sell, as a part of Hornby's new range of "more robust" train's, but in issuing both an older version, and the 2005 model they've catered for both ends of the market - they didn't have to, but they did.

I'm sure that this bodes incredibly well for the Airfix range..................

[Gary West]

What about taking up where Auroclub left off - a nice Gnat & JP3/4 in 1:48

[AnonymousER99]

What about taking up where Auroclub left off - a nice Gnat & JP3/4 in 1:48

Well I got Johns last injected moulded Gnat coming! I have been after this one for a long time now. It may slide to the top of the pile.

Wouldnt it be nice for Airfix to repop the Lightnings??

[Tim]

Interesting subject innit?! I take your various points, but as Jonathan says, the Nimrod, TSR2, Canberra etc., are "proper" moulds, so I just don't believe for a minute that when such kits are released as "Limited Edition" it means that when they're gone, they're gone. Just doesn't add up.

Okay, as Bill says, if Hornby can recoup all their costs and make a decent profit on one run of the Nimrod then great, but even if they do, does that mean the moulds are then redundant? Nah, they'll either be used again at some stage or sold to somebody else, and it's just this point that annoys me about the whole "Limited Edition" nonsense, because there patently ain't no such thing. Realistically, they ought to call it "Staggered Release" I guess! Maybe it's just me but I just find the concept a bit annoying, knowing as we all do that people will be running around like headless chickens, grabbing Nimrods, while others buy 'em up just to rip people off on Ebay, and all for nothing when the kit will doubtless reappear at a later date. Oh well, as I've said before, I guess it's good for Hornby's profits so it's probably in our interests in the (very) long run.

Oh yeah, I know what you mean about that 72nd Lightning kit Bill... I think that kit has reached a stage where it ought to be quietly retired. It looked old twenty years ago!

[Geoff_B]

Okay, as Bill says, if Hornby can recoup all their costs and make a decent profit on one run of the Nimrod then great, but even if they do, does that mean the moulds are then redundant? Nah, they'll either be used again at some stage or sold to somebody else, and it's just this point that annoys me about the whole "Limited Edition" nonsense, because there patently ain't no such thing. Realistically, they ought to call it "Staggered Release" I guess! Maybe it's just me but I just find the concept a bit annoying, knowing as we all do that people will be running around like headless chickens, grabbing Nimrods, while others buy 'em up just to rip people off on Ebay, and all for nothing when the kit will doubtless reappear at a later date. Oh well, as I've said before, I guess it's good for Hornby's profits so it's probably in our interests in the (very) long run.

Regarding 'Limited Edition' they are quite right in calling them that, unlike the Canberras which will continue being produced in batches for the next few years until the sales drop off, the Nimrods will be a one shot kit for this moment in time. They will do one big run to meet stockists orders and then Airfix will effectively have sold out untill they decide to run a 2nd issue sometime in the next 5-10 years. Thus the likes of the Nimrod and TSR2 are classed as limited editions as they will only be available for a relatively short amount of time. You will be hard pressed to find a Nimrod on the shelves of main stream retailers within in a year or so of its release, thus supply is limited and buyers should be aware as such, it wont be much good deciding to treat yourself next chrimbo to one as you'll only likely to find them on ebay if anywhere. The Canberras will likely have a smaller initial run when compared to Nimrod but will be scheduled to have repeat batches for the next few years, so supplies can get them direct from Airfix stocks whenever they run out.

Due to the timing when the Nimrod or TSR2 are eventually re-isued they chances are the Box design, the artwork and maybe even the decals options will be revised so a 2nd edition kit will technically differ from the initial release. They may include optional parts or the chance taken to clean up any kit fit or detail issues.

Geoff

[Tim]

Well yeah, it's a limited edition in that it's not an infinite production run, but the phrase implies that it's a "one off" production which of course it isn't - it'll be back again sooner or later. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at, I just dislike the whole thinking behind this new concept - it just seems a bit cynical to me.

[Shaun]

What about taking up where Auroclub left off - a nice JP3/4 in 1:48

Agree,I need a 1/48th JP4 for my collection.

Any offers?.

Shaun.

[AnonymousAA72]

Well yeah, it's a limited edition in that it's not an infinite production run, but the phrase implies that it's a "one off" production which of course it isn't - it'll be back again sooner or later. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at, I just dislike the whole thinking behind this new concept - it just seems a bit cynical to me.

I can see your point regarding the implications but I beleive that in both of these instances (TSR2 & Nimrod) the "Limited Run" nature was for legitmate reasons. Airfix didn't want to overproduce and have warehouses full of unsold kits, so asked the "trade" how many they wanted, and the "trade" responded accordingly. I don't think anyone could have predicted the TSR2 saga! In fact had Airfix been that cynical maybe their "limited run" would have stretched to 25k or 30k! (Instead of the ca. 15k produced!).

[AnonymousAA72]

What about taking up where Auroclub left off - a nice Gnat & JP3/4 in 1:48

I'd go along with that!!!

...

[Gary West]

Mmmm my fav scheme for the JP3 - is this the Aeroclub kit Bill?

[Eric2020]

I think we will not see many "new" kits on the market soon other than limited run Nimrod and very few other kits. I would buy kits if reasonable price. Also most of us here talk about aircraft, but there's an world of other modellers around the globe who want their share as well. Keep in mind Hornby paid for an old company, just to safeguard the British Empire in the modelling world. It needs money back, and will get it back only when older kits are reissued and some attractive new decals and perhaps retools from old molds, without spending large amount of pounds in an still weakening market. Shops closing and we modellers run to the cheapest store in town.

I was told in an hobbystore in Hull that everything Airfix has moved to Kent to Hornby HQ, And knowing how kits are made in production it would be good to keep it low production rates for an few years and get back the invested money. When at break even Hornby will look no doubt to us and surprice us with some very super cool new tooled model, not just for aircraft fans around the globe but for all the modellers.

An Leopard A-8 1/35 British Aerospace Hawk 1/32 and the newest class carrier including the J-35.

[Tim]

I'd also be seriously pleased with a 48th (or 72nd) JP3/4 but I'm not sure whether it's a commercial subject. I'd love it, but most casual buyers wouldn't even have a clue what it was. I suppose it could be marketed intelligently though, especially with a bright box top showing the Red Pelicans in their overall red or dayglow paint schemes - that ought to be enough to grab the attention of a few people, but I guess that would rely on some fresh thinking on the box top style and I don't think there's any prospect of that happening, judging by the Nimrod's "traditional" box top!

Edited November 3, 2007 by Tim

[thx6667]

Well yeah, it's a limited edition in that it's not an infinite production run, but the phrase implies that it's a "one off" production which of course it isn't - it'll be back again sooner or later. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at, I just dislike the whole thinking behind this new concept - it just seems a bit cynical to me.

But Hasegawa do it all the time, albeit one core kit then dozens of limited editions based around it. The TSR-2 and Nimrod swere never, "buy now because you'll never see them again".

I think the more that China positions itself within the hobby market, the more days of open production runs are going to be numbered (sic) and that limted runs might become the norm.

I'd also be seriously pleased with a 48th (or 72nd) JP3/4 but I'm not sure whether it's a commercial subject. I'd love it, but most casual buyers wouldn't even have a clue what it was.

In which case you'd offer it as a limited run item.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Jonathan Mock

[Gary West]

But Hasegawa do it all the time, albeit one core kit then dozens of limited editions based around it.

And that is exactly what I'd like to see Airfix do - reboxed/decalled releases of the same kit regularly....for some lines anyway.

[Test Graham]

20,000 seems excessive for an early Nimrod, with the later version coming along. Airfix did say that the tools were capable of being altered to produce an MRA4. Obviously, if they've got the orders they'll produce the kits, but I can see these sitting on the shelves and thus restraining orders for the promised (?) retool. But we've got until 2035 before they leave service.....

[Eric2020]

I realy hate the term "limited edition" it is never limited, and also expensive as well. Realy Limited run is lets say 500 kits like TSR-2 and that is realy limited and special, because there is only 1 good model of it and that is from Airfix. Making Limited editions like Hasagawa is doing is only helping those who collect kits rather than building them for which it is intended.

Nobody is waiting for limited edition Tornado IDS or F-15 16 or other modern day fighter. And also Hasagawa is prizing itself out of the market with limited editions because of old molds and new decals and selling them way too expensive! I realy do not want to pay 30 pounds for an model with old molds and less accuracy, and only to get it for an decal sheet!

[Tim]

Like you say, Hasegawa continually re-issue kits as "limited edition" releases with new decals etc., but they know and we know that this merely represents only one incarnation of a basic kit which will re-appear many (many!) times. Nothing wrong with that, it makes good commercial sense and it provides modellers with more decals, etc. ever time the kit gets re-issued. The Airfix angle is slightly different though, as the implication is made that (with the Nimrod for example) it will be a one-off run and when they're all gone, that'll be the end of it, so if you don't grab one now, you'll never see it again. Okay, it's just clever marketing I guess, and most of us know only too well that it will eventually re-appear, as there's absolutely no way that anyone is gonna spend loads of cash on moulds and then not re-use them, or sell them (unless they're short-run moulds which in this case they're not), so the whole concept is simply based on the knowledge that people will inevitably want to "snap-up" a kit while they can, even though we all know it'll be back again sooner or later. Like I say, it makes good commercial sense but it just seems a bit exploitative for the buyers who are being pushed into this "buy now" concept. Great for the manufacturer but a bit unfortunate for folks who might not be able to shell-out forty quid at the proverbial drop of a hat, but are obliged to do it, because if they don't, all the kits will be bought-up.

Still, you can always take a wider view and simply judge that if this kind of marketing ensures that Airfix make a decent profit, it means the range survives and prospers, and that's got to be good for us all in the long term.

[thx6667]

20,000 seems excessive for an early Nimrod, with the later version coming along. Airfix did say that the tools were capable of being altered to produce an MRA4. Obviously, if they've got the orders they'll produce the kits, but I can see these sitting on the shelves and thus restraining orders for the promised (?) retool. But we've got until 2035 before they leave service.....

Dunno where you've heard that Graham, there's no way an MR.4 could be made from this kit, it would be an entirely new fuselage and wings - not so much a retool as a new tool.

Like I say, it makes good commercial sense but it just seems a bit exploitative for the buyers who are being pushed into this "buy now" concept. Great for the manufacturer but a bit unfortunate for folks who might not be able to shell-out forty quid at the proverbial drop of a hat, but are obliged to do it, because if they don't, all the kits will be bought-up.

These kits are announced way ahead of release, hardly "drop of a hat" is it Tim? Here Bill can correct me, modellers can pre-order the kit from their LMS, I don't think they are actually handing over any money in advance, and a lot of the number will be down to the trade putting in orders from their own estimates, not pre-orders from customers.

Still, you can always take a wider view and simply judge that if this kind of marketing ensures that Airfix make a decent profit, it means the range survives and prospers, and that's got to be good for us all in the long term.

Or, more importantly, that its a way of getting niches subjects done that might not otherwise get made, and it may yet be the way forward for all kit companies.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Jonathan Mock

[Tim]

Hope you're right Jonathan - although I'd be doubtful whether we'll ever get to equate Airfix with the term "niche"... think that's more Aeroclub's forte?!