Airfix- lets see now

[Tim]

Nice though a good Sea Harrier would be, I suspect the subject's a bit past it's sell-by date now in terms of broad appeal. I would imagine Hornby will want to appeal to both dedicated modellers and general buyers alike, so if they did do another Harrier, I'd imagine that they'd go for a GR7/9, even though it's not exactly something we need, thanks to Hasegawa. Also, having been peddling their big 24th kit for years, and 72nd scale ones, you wouldn't blame them for thinking the subject's been exhausted, even if we're all wishing they'd just do another one really well!

Have to admit I'm surprised they've gone ahead with the Nimrod. I think it's a great choice, but commercially I'm not so convinced. I mean, will anyone outside the UK want to spend a decent amount of cash on a big kit of a plane they've probably never even seen? I suppose it'll go down well in Malta but...

Same applies to the old rumour about a Valiant - lovely idea but will all that many people want it? Afterall, even the gorgeous Lightning kit didn't exactly fly off the shelves.

It's a funny business trying to work-out what will sell and what won't, and often very difficult to distinguish between what we'd personally love to see and what might be commercial suicide. I wouldn't want to be having to make the choices that's for sure! Mind you, if I was, a 48th scale Varsity would be out in the shops damned quickly!

[AnonymousAA72]

Nice though a good Sea Harrier would be, I suspect the subject's a bit past it's sell-by date now in terms of broad appeal. I would imagine Hornby will want to appeal to both dedicated modellers and general buyers alike, so if they did do another Harrier, I'd imagine that they'd go for a GR7/9, even though it's not exactly something we need, thanks to Hasegawa. Also, having been peddling their big 24th kit for years, and 72nd scale ones, you wouldn't blame them for thinking the subject's been exhausted, even if we're all wishing they'd just do another one really well!

Have to admit I'm surprised they've gone ahead with the Nimrod. I think it's a great choice, but commercially I'm not so convinced. I mean, will anyone outside the UK want to spend a decent amount of cash on a big kit of a plane they've probably never even seen? I suppose it'll go down well in Malta but...

Same applies to the old rumour about a Valiant - lovely idea but will all that many people want it? Afterall, even the gorgeous Lightning kit didn't exactly fly off the shelves.

It's a funny business trying to work-out what will sell and what won't, and often very difficult to distinguish between what we'd personally love to see and what might be commercial suicide. I wouldn't want to be having to make the choices that's for sure! Mind you, if I was, a 48th scale Varsity would be out in the shops damned quickly!

A valid point Tim, re, Hornby appealing to the dedicated modeller and general buyers alike - its what they currently do in the railway modelling world. My info from the local Hornby Rep a few weeks ago was that they were embarking on re-tooling some of their better sellers - I don't know whether a 1/48th Harrier/Shar would fall into this category or not .......others here may!!!

As for the Nimrod - as its only being issued as a Limited Edition, I'd suggest that it will be a commercial success - we'll see in March or April next year how much they fetch on E-Bay!!

A Valiant? Someone's gotta do it!! (and yes I have a half built Mach 2 Valiant in the garage somewhere!).

AND I think that Airfix SHOULD be championing British modelling subjects......

[Mike]

and yes I have a half built Mach 2 Valiant in the garage somewhere!

Don't we all?

[Col.]

Don't we all?

You speak for yourself mate

Of course, you could always finish it...

[markc]

Got much the same laid past for a future build and that Flightpath set is something else! Any chance we'll see some more progress on this one?

Thanks for the interest, yes I'll start an in progress thread this evening and up date with a few extra piccies. Be warned though I build at a rate that is best measured in geological timescales.

Cheers

MarkC

[Col.]

Hmm, let see now. We both have the Airfix 48th SHAR with a Flightpath detail set, Heritage intakes and a positively glacial building pace?

I never knew I had a brother!

[Guest cloggy]

Be warned though I build at a rate that is best measured in geological timescales.

I love that remark - made me laugh. My KC-135 build could be measured against the same time scale!

Meanwhile, I would be concerned about Airfix / Hornby's trend for the limited release, particularly as it is likely that most British subjects - particularly those not yet covered by a mainstream manufacturer e.g VC-10, York, Manchester - would have the same limited appeal suggested by Tim of the Nimrod.

[upnorth]

There's plenty of other things I'd like to see prior to a new Harrier kit of any sort (nothing against the Leaping Heap personally)

I would like to see V Bombers in 1/144, possibly in a set of three ala the Battle of Britain or Falklands anniversary sets.

I simply don't have space for V Bombers in 1/72 but I'd love to have kits of all three.

If they could do that and include some of the options for the various roles, for example, they could have a baseline Victor Mk.2 kit that would be tooled in such a way that they could make kits of anything from a straight B.2 to the K.2 and whatever in between, they could to something similar with the Vulcan Mk.2.

I think a great gift set would be a set of 1/144 early V Bombers so you could build that formation of Mk.1 variants of all of them all in brilliant anti flash white.

A 1/144 or 1/72 Shackleton AEW.2 in injection form has been on my wish list for years now. I love the Shack and it was so underepresented in injection form.

Right now, I'm saving my modeling money for when Valom's promised Bristol Brigand hits the shelves sometime next year. I've been waiting for an injection one of those for as long as I've wanted a new tooled Shack.

A few other wishes before a new Harrier:

1/72 Hunter T.7/T.8

1/72 Shorts Tucano (new tool)

1/72 Vampire/Venom family

[thx6667]

Meanwhile, I would be concerned about Airfix / Hornby's trend for the limited release, particularly as it is likely that most British subjects - particularly those not yet covered by a mainstream manufacturer e.g VC-10, York, Manchester - would have the same limited appeal suggested by Tim of the Nimrod.

Its only kit under Hornby, the Nimrod (two if you count the club exclusive Spit XIV), so its hardly a trend and its limted status was a Humbrol thing anyway - the 1/48 Canberras are all open-stock kits, as is the Lifeboat and Spitfire I. That said, I can see the merits of limited releases (its how Hasgawa make their money), and its a way of getting niche interest subjects out there, albeit for a limited time, then its worth considering.

[Tim]

Thing is though, there's no such thing as a "limited release"... Okay, they'll do a relatively short run to ensure that they all get sold, but it'll be back on the shelves again just like the TSR2 will be. Clearly, you can't spend a small fortune on a mould and then just run-off one batch. You have to use the mould to get back your investment. So even with the limited edition concept you are still ultimately obliged to see pretty much the same quantity of kits sooner or later, which brings you back to the worry about finding subjects which are sufficiently "mainstream".

I agree that it would be great if Airfix concentrated on British subjects, but I don't know whether it's a good way to make a profit. It's fine for smaller companies to cater for our exotic tastes, but granny sure ain't gonna be "buying little Johnny a Nimrod for Christmas". You know how it goes, they pick the Spitfire or Concorde, or at least something they can relate to.

Rather perversely, I would imagine that a 24th scale Hawk would probably be a better bet - the inevitable Red Arrows box top would be its main asset, and of course it has international appeal too. As for the Victor, I think that subject's unlikely to ever be touched again, with the Revell kit (together with all its shortcomings) having catered for most of the potential sales for this type. If the Valiant happens it would be great, but even fewer people will even have a clue what it is. I suppose a suitable "Grapple" box top would create some interest but I suspect there will be "political" considerations when it comes to showing nukes on a "toy" box.

VC10? Well again it's an obscure subject for anyone outside the UK, and it's a big model. After Heller's experience with the 707 (which at least had the ability to become a USAF/Nato E-3), I would imagine they'd be less-than inclined to spend money on a big kit like this. Maybe they'd be better-off re-tooling the 144th kit and putting some effort back into that range, now that it's so much more popular. In 144th the VC10 will at least have additional appeal for airliner modellers, and of course there must be a case for doing a decent Viscount, and maybe things like the Britannia, Globemaster, Cargomaster (you could include a Thor kit!), a scaled-down Nimrod, C-17, etc.

I'd be hard-pressed to identify some "relibale" ideas for bigger scales. I'd imagine that a Shackleton would work (it has pistons so it would probably interest older overseas buyers too), maybe a decent 48th scale Puma or an early Whirlwind (which again has overseas appeal). If Airfix do propose to re-tool kits, the Jaguar must the a candidate. I'd like to think the 72nd or 48th Tornado kits would be ideal for re-tooling but even though they're all less-than wonderful, I suspect they're just a little too good to warrant re-doing them. Pity really - can you imagine a 48th GR4 or F3 produced to the same quality as the Lightning?

I suppose out of all the ideas, a good 72nd Lightning is the one that ought to be tackled, plus the rumoured 48th Hunter and Meteor F8. The Vulcan would also be well worth re-tooling as it's basically a good kit and unlikely to be bettered, so it'd be worth improving it, with scribed panel lines, new exhausts, a bomb bay interior and wheel bay interiors.

Otherwise, who knows? Airfix is a big range but who would be brave enough to spend money re-tooling items from it? I certainly won't be holding my breath for the stuff I'd personally like to see - 72nd kits of the Varsity, Valetta, Hastings, Belfast, Beverley, Britannia, Comet, VC10, Andover, Argosy, BAC-111, Viscount...

I would think that it would be far safer to pick subjects with international appeal. How about a 48th F-101A/C, a good 48th Viggen, a 48th Neptune, a 72nd C-17?

Difficult business trying to guess what will sell and what won't. I hope Hornby get it right as I'm sure everybody else does!

Edited October 31, 2007 by Tim

[Hawk-eye]

Thing is though, there's no such thing as a "limited release"... Okay, they'll do a relatively short run to ensure that they all get sold, but it'll be back on the shelves again just like the TSR2 will be. Clearly, you can't spend a small fortune on a mould and then just run-off one batch. You have to use the mould to get back your investment. So even with the limited edition concept you are still ultimately obliged to see pretty much the same quantity of kits sooner or later, which brings you back to the worry about finding subjects which are sufficiently "mainstream".

I agree that it would be great if Airfix concentrated on British subjects, but I don't know whether it's a good way to make a profit. It's fine for smaller companies to cater for our exotic tastes, but granny sure ain't gonna be "buying little Johnny a Nimrod for Christmas". You know how it goes, they pick the Spitfire or Concorde, or at least something they can relate to.

Rather perversely, I would imagine that a 24th scale Hawk would probably be a better bet - the inevitable Red Arrows box top would be its main asset, and of course it has international appeal too. As for the Victor, I think that subject's unlikely to ever be touched again, with the Revell kit (together with all its shortcomings) having catered for most of the potential sales for this type. If the Valiant happens it would be great, but even fewer people will even have a clue what it is. I suppose a suitable "Grapple" box top would create some interest but I suspect there will be "political" considerations when it comes to showing nukes on a "toy" box.

VC10? Well again it's an obscure subject for anyone outside the UK, and it's a big model. After Heller's experience with the 707 (which at least had the ability to become a USAF/Nato E-3), I would imagine they'd be less-than inclined to spend money on a big kit like this. Maybe they'd be better-off re-tooling the 144th kit and putting some effort back into that range, now that it's so much more popular. In 144th the VC10 will at least have additional appeal for airliner modellers, and of course there must be a case for doing a decent Viscount, and maybe things like the Britannia, Globemaster, Cargomaster (you could include a Thor kit!), a scaled-down Nimrod, C-17, etc.

I'd be hard-pressed to identify some "relibale" ideas for bigger scales. I'd imagine that a Shackleton would work (it has pistons so it would probably interest older overseas buyers too), maybe a decent 48th scale Puma or an early Whirlwind (which again has overseas appeal). If Airfix do propose to re-tool kits, the Jaguar must the a candidate. I'd like to think the 72nd or 48th Tornado kits would be ideal for re-tooling but even though they're all less-than wonderful, I suspect they're just a little too good to warrant re-doing them. Pity really - can you imagine a 48th GR4 or F3 produced to the same quality as the Lightning?

I suppose out of all the ideas, a good 72nd Lightning is the one that ought to be tackled, plus the rumoured 48th Hunter and Meteor F8. The Vulcan would also be well worth re-tooling as it's basically a good kit and unlikely to be bettered, so it'd be worth improving it, with scribed panel lines, new exhausts, a bomb bay interior and wheel bay interiors.

Otherwise, who knows? Airfix is a big range but who would be brave enough to spend money re-tooling items from it? I certainly won't be holding my breath for the stuff I'd personally like to see - 72nd kits of the Varsity, Valetta, Hastings, Belfast, Beverley, Britannia, Comet, VC10, Andover, Argosy, BAC-111, Viscount...

I would think that it would be far safer to pick subjects with international appeal. How about a 48th F-101A/C, a good 48th Viggen, a 48th Neptune, a 72nd C-17?

Difficult business trying to guess what will sell and what won't. I hope Hornby get it right as I'm sure everybody else does!

Speaking as something of a newbie, I would rather like to see a set of UK/NATO weapons with decent colour notes and decals. Then we could all stick them where they would do most good......or at least offer alternative weapon loads to whatever the manufacturer provided.

[AnonymousAA72]

Meanwhile, I would be concerned about Airfix / Hornby's trend for the limited release, particularly as it is likely that most British subjects - particularly those not yet covered by a mainstream manufacturer e.g VC-10, York, Manchester - would have the same limited appeal suggested by Tim of the Nimrod.

To me it makes perfect sense - limited appeal=limited release? I've heard numbers bandied about regarding the number of Nimrod's (for example) being issued and one can only assume that Airfix/Hornby have done their sums based upon that.

The only concern I would have is a selfish one- and thats the worry that any "limited release" are "one-off's" - and that they wouldn't be around in 5 or 10 years time........that said IF the sums have added up and assuming (tooling, r&d, distribution etc.,) costs HAVE been recouped on these initial "limited run" costs then any further batches issued would be more profitable?

[thx6667]

1/72 Shorts Tucano (new tool)

Tricky one that, the existing kit is one of the nicest Airfix kits in the range but its dropped in and out of the range several times since its release in 1990, suggesting that its not a constant seller like say the Hawk, so it would be a hard one to try and sell (literally and figuratively).

The only concern I would have is a selfish one- and thats the worry that any "limited release" are "one-off's" - and that they wouldn't be around in 5 or 10 years time........that said IF the sums have added up and assuming (tooling, r&d, distribution etc.,) costs HAVE been recouped on these initial "limited run" costs then any further batches issued would be more profitable?

Its a double edged sword Bill, but I would say that if a niche subject is chosen on a limited release basis and is slow to recoup its costs and make a profit, then the decision to make it a limited item is justified. If it sells through the roof, then its jam all round.

As I said in another post, I think the concept has possibilities, it might take some fine tuning, but if its gives modellers subjects they want, the only caveat being they'll have to buy while its available, then perhaps that's a small compromise.

[Howard of Effingham]

Speaking as something of a newbie, I would rather like to see a set of UK/NATO weapons with decent colour notes and decals. Then we could all stick them where they would do most good......or at least offer alternative weapon loads to whatever the manufacturer provided.

some years back airfix did do a nato weapons set with etched brass, which can still be found at various modelshows i think.

i got my two from one of the birmingham model shows [at the leasowes school] some years ago for £1 each, one of the

stallholders had gotten hold of an absolute shedload of the sets.

[Matt Roberts]

Just a question here...

Roughly how long will it take for a new mold kit to go thru the pipeline, if there are serious and have the money to put towards the project? Say a new 48th Meteor F-8. If they start on January 1st 2008 (for example only) would they have product by December 31st 2008....June 1st 2009....January 1st 2010? Considering the best (worst) example we currently have is Trumpeter with the 32nd A-6 Intruder, test shots a couple of years ago and no release yet on the horizon. I know there is differances between a complex 32nd Intruder mold and a relatively simple 48th mold. But I am just curious as to when we may see the first Airfix 2.0 molds from Hornby.

Think we may hear something at Telford?

Matt

My name is Matt and I am a rumormonger...and part of the problem

[keefr22]

Considering the best (worst) example we currently have is Trumpeter with the 32nd A-6 Intruder, test shots a couple of years ago and no release yet on the horizon.

My name is Matt and I am a rumormonger...and part of the problem

I know it's probably just another rumour ( ) but I'm sure I read on 'another forum' recently that the Trumpy A-6 had now been dropped??

Keef

[Matt Roberts]

I know it's probably just another rumour ( ) but I'm sure I read on 'another forum' recently that the Trumpy A-6 had now been dropped??

Keef

That goes back to HLJ dropping a pre-order on thier site, due to it being still quite a ways from release. From what is gathered it is still being worked on but The complexity of The A-6 airframe has meant that it has gotten sent back to be reworked....supposed to be at least

But back to Airfix....

Matt

Edited October 31, 2007 by Matt Roberts

[Col.]

But back to Airfix....

As a matter of interest, anyone know which kits were Airfix' best sellers?

That may give us an idea which ones are most likely to be re-tooled.

[Richard M]

Well, the much maligned JE*J has pretty much been in continuous production (hence selling) since it first appeared about 300 years ago. I'd say that was a contender for re-tooling!

Best

Rich

Edited October 31, 2007 by Richard M

[AnonymousER99]

Honestly a I think a good SHAR would be a welcome addition to the 1/48 Airfix family. The only problem I see is if it would really sell as only that the RN is the ONLY user! Or did Spain get some?? Either way you are looking at a VERY limited use airframe with a total of two color schemes. It may sell great in the Isles and in Argentina but most people, myself included can wirk with the old Airfix kits.

Also, the pleas for Trumpeter to do it scare the pants off of me! Why oh why would anyone want Trumpy to do it?? Can anyone name ONE aifcraft kit that they have botched something major on other than maybe the Mig-15 and 19?? I can only imagine what a SHAR canopy would look like from them!

Also, all the clamoring about Trumpys A-6A baffles me. Its an A model...the least used of them all. If it was an E or an E TRAM it would possibly sell but a straight A??

Guess I am just crabby today

[AnonymousAA72]

Honestly a I think a good SHAR would be a welcome addition to the 1/48 Airfix family. The only problem I see is if it would really sell as only that the RN is the ONLY user! Or did Spain get some?? Either way you are looking at a VERY limited use airframe with a total of two color schemes. It may sell great in the Isles and in Argentina but most people, myself included can wirk with the old Airfix kits.

Guess I am just crabby today

Don't be so crabby then Mike!!

The SHAR was also operated by India....Colour scheme's in FAA service......SHAR1 (i) EDSG/White, (ii) EDSG o/a, (iii) MSG/Barley grey, (iv) DSG o/a - SHAR2....(v) DSG o/a, (vi) MSG o/a. Throw into the works the squadron markings of 700A, 899, 800, 801 & 809 NASqns, plus the A&AEE and you have plenty of options....then theres the Indian Navy...and as Jonathan says if its similar to the ESCI 1/72nd kit, and we get the GR1,GR1a,AV8A, GR3 AND T2/T4, TAV8A, then there's be a few happy bunnies out there - myself included!

I'm fed up with all of that kit bashing to get a half decent SHAR

[AnonymousER99]

Don't be so crabby then Mike!!

The SHAR was also operated by India....Colour scheme's in FAA service......SHAR1 (i) EDSG/White, (ii) EDSG o/a, (iii) MSG/Barley grey, (iv) DSG o/a - SHAR2....(v) DSG o/a, (vi) MSG o/a. Throw into the works the squadron markings of 700A, 899, 800, 801 & 809 NASqns, plus the A&AEE and you have plenty of options....then theres the Indian Navy...and as Jonathan says if its similar to the ESCI 1/72nd kit, and we get the GR1,GR1a,AV8A, GR3 AND T2/T4, TAV8A, then there's be a few happy bunnies out there - myself included!

I'm fed up with all of that kit bashing to get a half decent SHAR

Aaaaaawwwwwwww come on Bill!!! Your work has inspired me for years (I am not just blowing smoke up your bottom). In fact your Lightnings were the reason I actually started reading SAMI!! Kit bashing is a form of therapy!! See when you pull one off it makes people go oooohhhhh and aaaaaaahhhhhh over it!! Puts hair on your chest my friend.

On the SHAR, I forgot India!! Thanks for that. So now the Isles, Argentina and Indian modelers buy it :w***: as well as a few token Americans such as me!

Personally I think a Mirage IIIE or V would be the bees knees!!! Then again why would a British company do one of those Frenchy jets!??? :shithappens:

[Matt Roberts]

<clip>

Also, all the clamoring about Trumpys A-6A baffles me. Its an A model...the least used of them all. If it was an E or an E TRAM it would possibly sell but a straight A??

<clip>

The A-6A was used over Vietnam so probably next to the B-52, it dropped more bombs than anything else in SEA. Also remember the A-6A is supposed to be the first kit released, an E as well as rumors of an EA-6B and possibly an EA-6A are about. The A-6E and TRAM are only 'more significant' because they were the last. Used in the Middle East mostly between 1986 and 1991 over Libya, Lebanon and Iraq.

As for Trumpy screwing everything up...lets hope they do the Nimrod right then, as well as all of the FAA stuff they are supposed to be doing like the Scimitar. Seems to me the Wyvern and Sea Hawk have been pretty good kits. It all depends on the designers, the mold makers only create what the deisgners tell them to.

Matt

[AnonymousER99]

The A-6A was used over Vietnam so probably next to the B-52, it dropped more bombs than anything else in SEA. Also remember the A-6A is supposed to be the first kit released, an E as well as rumors of an EA-6B and possibly an EA-6A are about. The A-6E and TRAM are only 'more significant' because they were the last. Used in the Middle East mostly between 1986 and 1991 over Libya, Lebanon and Iraq.

As for Trumpy screwing everything up...lets hope they do the Nimrod right then, as well as all of the FAA stuff they are supposed to be doing like the Scimitar. Seems to me the Wyvern and Sea Hawk have been pretty good kits. It all depends on the designers, the mold makers only create what the deisgners tell them to.

Matt

Matt

Didnt the E get used towards the end of the Vietnam war?? Like the last 4 years or so?? Forgive my ignorance if I am wrong. I am not too big of a Navy guy

As far as trumpy goes, I forgot about the Wyvern being that good. In fact I would say its their best effort yet. I can't comment on the Sea Hawk, I spent my allowance on the CA kit!!

I really would like to see trumpy suceed but until their quality matches the quality they are giving us, I will wait with baited breath. I know you will blame the importer and I do too but if Trumpy knows the prices are inflated here in the US especially, why don't they simply search for a new importer?? I know that they have had to have gotten feedback on the price gouging by now. Oh, and I agree on the Nimrod too!!

Cheers

Mike

[keefr22]

plus the A&AEE

A&AEE Shar Bill? That's a new one on me! Any pics on line that you know of (don't have time to google just now, supposed to be on here working!!) What scheme did it wear - not full ripple was it??

Keef