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Sikorsky S-16 & Spad S.A-4


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#1 p-26luvr

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:16 PM

The day before yesterday I was looking through some of my unbuilt kits & came across these 2. The result is that I have started work on the Spad. What I am going to do is to scratchbuild the interior of the Spad & add other extra detail which I have already started ; and with the Sikorsky I will be using a full etch-brass interior & details
These are both WW1 biplanes, & are not that well known. I have booklets that detail both A/C so my detailing will be the best I can do. These will be slow builds, since I have to finish some other builds as well. But they should prove interesting to you WW1 & biplane modelers on site. I will post initial pictures in the next few days. Carl T :thumbsup: :whistle:

#2 Col.

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:24 PM

After enjoying your personal mini-GB thread on the Boeing's I'll stay tuned to this one as well.

#3 p-26luvr

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:31 AM

For anyone that does not know what these planes look like, these pictures are of the kits box art.
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Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#4 silverburn

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:16 AM

Am I seeing right? The Spad has the prop "inside" the fuselage??? :analintruder:

Hope the front gunner isn't wearing a long, flappy scarf....:)

#5 Col.

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:42 AM

Am I seeing right? The Spad has the prop "inside" the fuselage??? :analintruder:

Hope the front gunner isn't wearing a long, flappy scarf....:)

The French sold their entire stock of SPAD A.2 & A.4s to the Imperial Russian Air Service when finding them unsuitable for service. There was a small wire screen between gunner and prop but the nacelle was designed to pivot on its lower fixings for engine maintenance and the upper attachment points had a tendency to fail in a hard landing with inevitable results for the gunner. Good for 100 mph though.

#6 stevehed

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 08:16 PM

Hi Carl,
Looking forward to these two. Got them in my stash and have even had the Spad box open and filed a few parts but no further. When the build eventually starts my empty spaces will get a crew member so hats off to those with the skill and patience to detail cockpits in 1/72. I also found single bay rigging on what is in essence a twin bay wing a little awkward when tried on an Airfix Spad V11 which has a similar layout.

All the best for the new year.

Regards, Steve

#7 p-26luvr

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:09 AM

These next few pictures will be divided over 2 posts First up is the Spad S.A.4 For references I am using the following Albatros Publications Mini Datafile #4, & an article from the French magazine Avions number 47. There is not very much on the internet about this plane.
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This is the parts layout for the Spad model.
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This is a closer look at the fuselage in the above picture showing some of the work I have already done. I am using the Eduard Spad 13 as a guide for a rough approximation of what the cockpit looked like. This A/C was the predecessor of the Spad 7. I have added the floorboards to the insides, & the metal panel that goes behind the motor. This part has the cabane & landing gear struts molded integrally. I have thinned the back edges of this part.
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This is the end of the first post. Carl T

#8 p-26luvr

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:27 AM

Now we come to the Sikorsky S-16 model. I have 3 main references to use with this model. The first is this book, The 2nd is an 18 picture walkaround I found on the internet of a replica built by the Sikorsky company from thier on plans. The 3rd item is a build article from the Internet Modeler of May 1999 by Michael Kendix which list several inaccuraccies that need correcting.
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This is the parts layout of the kit.
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These are the fuselage parts with the inner etch-brass structure.
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This is the front side of the etch-brass instruction sheet
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This is the reverse side of the above sheet
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This will give you a small idea of what I plan on doing. Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#9 p-26luvr

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 02:26 AM

These 2 models have taken a back seat to my between the wars threads lately. But I plan to put some time in on them this coming week or 2. I have 14 models that I am working on at the present time. Believe it or not I am really enjoying it all & having some great fun in the bargain. Be patient & stay with me & you will see a few finished models before long. Carl T :thumbsup: :sleep_1: :frantic: :whistle: :speak_cool:

#10 p-26luvr

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 05:44 AM

While I am waiting for some painted parts to dry on the between the wars models I did some work on the Sikorski S16 model. I folded the etch-brass fuselage insert & fitted it. This first picture shows the insert in my folding tool as I have done the last fold. The first fold was for the top, which is the part angled down toward the screw handle.
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This is the fully folded fuselage insert
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These are the fuselage halves showing where I had to make trimmings to get the E/B parts to fit.I had to thin the firewall on the binside & on both halves where the black marks are. I had to cut the cockpit opening by about 1/16 inch.
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This shows the insert in place from the top .
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This is from the bottom view. Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:
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#11 CliffB

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 07:47 AM

That Sikorsky looks like an absorbing kit :)

I'm looking forward to watching the build.

Cliff

#12 p-26luvr

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 10:57 PM

This picture shows my etch-brass folding tools. The big square one is called THE BUG & is indispensible for me in using E/B. The razor blade is used with the BUG.
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This is my cutting table for E/B. The white electrical tape is there to make it easier to see the small E/B parts & is on the underside of the piece of glass. It measures 4 X 5 inches & is thick safety glass so it will not break if dropped.
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These are the parts I have made up this afternoon. Next to the fuselage, from bottom to top. Oil tank, motor mount bracket, & a box that goes on the floor. Next line outward, bottom to top, Fuel tank, mat for top of fuel tank, & seat that sits on top of F/T.
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To give you some idea of the size of all of this. The E/B fuselage frame assembly is 1 1/2 inches long X 11/32nd square. All of these small parts, & more will fit into or on the fuselage frame. Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#13 Dr.Jellyfingers

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 01:06 AM

Awesome work !

Can I ask where you got 'The Bug' from ?


Cheers, Si.

#14 p-26luvr

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 01:54 AM

Awesome work !

Can I ask where you got 'The Bug' from ?


Cheers, Si.

Si, I bought the BUG from the Kalama Precision Machine Co. in Washington state US. E-mail address is www.thesmallshop.com It cost me $40.00 US plus postage. The top part can be turned so that any of the teeth on any side can be used. In my opinion it is by far the best tool of this kind available. It makes glueing parts sometimes not necessary, the folds are so exact. In the parts above I have not glued the seat, oil or fuel tanks.
A tool like this takes the hardest work out of using etch-brass. On a part there are usually lines engraved where the part is to be folded. I have found that if I leave that line barely exposed & then fold that it comes out precisely where I want it to do so.
It's price may seem expensive to some people, but if you plan on using etch-brass it will make using it regularly more likely. As for the price, it is no more than an average Tamigawa kit, & will prove far more valuable & longer lasting in the long run. Carl T :hobbyhorse: :thumbsup:

#15 p-26luvr

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 03:25 AM

Now we come to the fitting of this all together. You will notice that I have not yet done any painting. I leave this until just before I finally assemble the main components. The first picture is of the lower wing. The work done on this was to thin down both ends, where the black marks are. On both sides there was a ledge, where the black lines are there, about 1/16th inch wide that had to be removed.
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This picture shows the E/B framework in place in the opening in the lower wing.
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This picture shows the fuselage, with the E/B framework inside, taped together & the whole thing fitted to the lower wing. Everything is very tight fit.
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I hope this is clearly explained. If anyone has questions feel free to ask, & I will do my best to help. Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#16 stevehed

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:46 PM

Amazing Carl, my utmost admiration. I don't think my patience would hold out long enough with PE. Don't mind it for panels but nearly lost the plot with a very flimsy gun ring but you clearly have the touch.

Can I ask if you have started the Spad as you've inspired me to make a start on my own. Apart from the fact it's not an SA-4 but a SA-2 have you had any problems with the sprues. Major parts, wings, fuselage etc no problem, plastic OK and cleaned up alright but most of the smaller stuff has been terrible to get off the sprues. To date, have wrecked the gun ring and mounting, spreader bar, cracked two wing struts while attempting to remove other bits and dread to think what else I'm going to have to find for myself. Smaller parts are on a very compact sprue which makes it difficult to get at them. Tried dismantling the sprue to gain access but only succeeded in breaking other distant bits. And I always thought I was light handed. Have you had similar problems or have I just got a bad 'un.

Cheers, Steve

#17 p-26luvr

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 02:50 AM

HI Steve, I haven't gotten that far with the Spad. I have not had any problems so far. I will let you know how I make out as I progress with the model. That may be a while before I get to it. I have 4 Curtiss P-6Es & 2 SBC-4s to finish before I get to the Spad. I am working On this model while paint on the others dries.
I painted & assembled the E/B framework & the interior of the model today. This picture shows the parts ready to be assembled.
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This picture is the E/B framework assembled & painted.
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This is the model partially assembled.
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Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#18 p-26luvr

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 04:05 AM

To Steve, Si, & anyone else interested in using etch-brass. I have been using E/B for the better part of 20+ years. I use it first of all because I enjoy using it. I like the extra detail that I can add by using it, & resin parts as well.
That being said, there is rarely a session when I use it that the air does not turn blue at least 2 or 3 times. I am forever feeding the carpet monster small pieces of either resin or brass, & occasionally plastic.
BUT, & it is a big but. I stay within my known limitations for the most part. If the parts are too small, or too complex, I say no thank you. I still try new things & I am still learning new ways to do things. I STILL KEEP THINGS AT AN EJOYABLE LEVEL.
I have come to use the BUG more & more as time goes on. I can do quite small pieces with it. If you look at the 2nd picture down with it; on the left side of the row of fingers above the razor blade, I have made up the working mechanism of a machine gun using the narrowest finger.If I can find the fret with the extra M/Gs I will be making one for this model, & will show it to you.
What I am trying to say, guys, is this; using E/B is like any other part of modeling. It has it's things you have to learn about, But it also has it's rewards. You take this model of the Sikorski S16 as an example. In the book I am using as reference are several pictures of the structure. But none of them compare to looking into the cockpit of my model as I have made it up. In my imagination I can see what a young Russian pilot had to face when flying his plane.
Thanks for reading this I hope that somehow it will help. Carl T :thumbsup: :whistle:

#19 p-26luvr

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 12:43 PM

Steve, I went back over the Spad model this morning, & I can see where there are going to be problems removing parts without breaking them. The reason I stopped work on it is because I want to add E/B seats. I have a fret of WW1 E/B seats somewhere. What I do in a case like this model presents is to cut the part off the sprue quite a bit back from the part & then chip away at the connecting piece trimming it down slowly. AND HOPING I DO NOT BREAK ANYTHING. Some of the parts I will replace with brass wire anyway for added strength. Carl T :thumbsup: :speak_cool:

#20 stevehed

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 10:13 PM

Hi Carl,
Tried cutting the sprue branches with limited success but had another think about it and decided to try a little heat. To this end I heated up a flat ended blade in the gas ring and laid the sprue on a dampened cloth. Managed to retrieve the wing struts, mgs and magazines but also managed to melt/distort the pulpit retaining bar and several smaller rods by letting the blade get too hot. Just about had the hang of it by the end of the session so let's say the method exhibited some potential. As you say you have to live and learn.

Cheers,
Steve.