John Aero Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Also playing Devils advocate. A number of manufacturers around this time were displaying their new Jets in bright colours. Avro 707's, BP 111, Hunter,AW52, Gloster and DH. However the decision to paint WK198 in a bright Blue colour had to come from the top so this was not a 'workshop whim'. Joe Smith the designer of the Swift was part of the original Spitfire design team. I think he might have had a say in the chosen colour and he would also not only have been involved with K5054 but would most likely have been party to any finishing discussions. Joe Smith is the link I would put my money on. I would love to be able to put QED to this some day. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 When Camm was producing the Hunter prototype, he told the Air Ministry (or whatever their name was at the time) that, because the available silver wouldn't adhere to a high-speed airframe (and modellers still insist on calling it High-Speed Silver, which never existed,) he had used the Admiralty's Sky. If Smith had the same problem (as seems entirely possible,) and (perish the thought) Smith and Camm actually talked to each other, it seems entirely feasible that he came to the same conclusion. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) This is the 1/48 one I did as a scratch conversion of the Airfix MkI last year. No great problems - just rescribing etc., fixing up a new wind screen and building a new radiator. I picked a sort of ZC greeny shade and didn't fuss too much with the application. http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss268/MMcKay_album/SpitfirePrototype5003.jpg Edited December 11, 2013 by MilneBay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Edgar , I totally follow your drift re the Silver finish and it is probably for this reason that the other manufacturers also went for bolder pigmented paints. Indeed if Smith had the problem (and the Swift family up to this point had been in natural finishes), would it not be a good choice to recall the heady days of 1936 with a familiar Blue paint scheme? The Prototype Spitfire must have stood out in the New Types Park by virtue of the fact it was probably the only aeroplane not painted Silver. I know that this thread started with the first flight colours but modellers often contemplate their own navels without looking to a wider world. There was a photo on line a little while ago of the Mk.1? which was rebuilt at booker taken in it's green anodised finish and looking for all the world like a colour K5054. It would seem the processes are still in use by restorers but no-one bothered to ask them. I must find that photo, it was on key forums historic site. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?76675-Booker-Spitfire-Mk-1-AR213-G-AIST-(merged)&highlight=Spitfire+Mk.1+Booker See especially page 4 Post 112. Note the not very shiny finish. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 My apologies to whoever I pinched this from, but it's supposed to be the top half of a paperweight, used by Mitchell, on his office (or home) desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I've just had a very interesting email from my friend who has been speaking to Rolls Royce old boys from Hucknall who remember K5054 coming up to (RR) Hucknall and who were there later when WK198 also visited Hucknall and the comment "as though they'd been painted from the same pot of paint" was made. It was described as a Blue/Grey. I'll put my emails in full when I've had a conversation with my mate. There is also an eye witness account of when K5054 dropped into Tangmere from another of his friends when it was "a light blue". Are the Vickers records now at Brooklands, anyone know? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Interesting indeed, John. Cambridge University Library has a Vickers collection, but I have a vague "memory" that other Vickers records exist elsewhere. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 My apologies to whoever I pinched this from, but it's supposed to be the top half of a paperweight, used by Mitchell, on his office (or home) desk. Most interesting. That looks like an opaque primer and possibly a strontium chromate based primer too*. The term "anodised primer" used somewhere above conflates two separate processes - the pre-treatment of the metal and the protective painting of it. The metal was usually anodised before a primer was applied. Forgive its length but I believe the following, although it refers to magnesium alloys and is modern, is relevant to understanding the basic principles which when K5054 was being prepared were in their infancy. "The basic requirements for a high degree of surface cleanliness, a good pretreatment and the proper application of a good quality paint are all important. These factors play a large part in determining how well a paint scheme will perform in service. Pretreatment Paint is normally applied onto chromate conversion coatings directly, or on Surface Sealed chromate conversion or hard anodic coatings. It should never be applied to bare magnesium. When paint is to be applied directly on a chromate film it is advisable for the film to be freshly applied and baked to ensure complete drying. Renewal of the chromate film ensures that any contamination of the old film is completely removed. The paint scheme The individual coats of a paint scheme must, of course, be compatible with each other and also with pretreated magnesium. Good alkali resistant and moisture impermeable epoxy paints are preferred. For some applications, a polyurethane finish, which is more resistant to UV degradation and hence less likely to suffer from “chalking,” is often used. Paint may be applied by dipping, spraying or brushing, but whichever technique is used, the aim should be to apply a uniform coating of the desired thickness over all surfaces. Primer should contain in the dry film not less than 15% by weight of chromate pigment. This should be either strontium chromate or strontium chromate containing up to 10% of barium chromate. An intermediate filler coat, if desired, and finishing coats should be applied to give a total organic coating thickness of at least 0.1mm and preferably 0.13 mm to 0.15 mm. The finishing coat is normally chosen to have the colour and texture required by the particular application. When to paint Ideally a primer coat should be applied prior to assembly and should cover all surfaces including internal and mating faces. This is particularly important if the part has not been Surface Sealed. It may be necessary to restrict the coating thickness in certain areas but it should not be omitted completely. At least one coat of primer and one coat of finish should be applied after wet assembly (see Appendix vii) to produce the desired overall thickness. Painting after assembly ensures the joints between adjacent components are adequately covered to stop ingress of moisture. In addition, the painting of bolt heads, nuts etc. isolates them from corrodent and effectively eliminates galvanic corrosion. If, for any reason, painting cannot be carried out after assembly, the parts should be masked as necessary and the full paint scheme applied. After assembly the joints between components and dissimilar metals should be hand painted with cold curing primer and finish. Whatever the sequence, all exposed surfaces should receive applications of primer and finish." (From 'Surface Treatments for Magnesium Alloys in Aerospace and Defence: Data Sheet 256') * From the observation that it seems to be shifting from yellow-green to a variegated green. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 I've just found my copy of Spitfire by Gordon Mitchell and found the reference he makes to standing by the unpainted prototype and thinking how it would look under a nice coat of paint and then says " this is before it had it's well known coat of Cerulean Blue". There is also the accounts document giving the expenditure up to first flight which is approx £15.000, and showing the comment that Rolls Royce contributed £7,500. This IMO shows just how important the project was to RR. Cerulean Blue comes in a number of shades (if that's the right word) and I have a Cerulean Blue Saab which in differing light and when polished, mirrors the sky and appears to lighten and darken. This may account some way for observers differing memories of the colour. I do think that the RR house colour links all the events mentioned elsewhere. I have friends who will pursue some lines of inquiry so it's a matter now to see what might or not turn up. John Here are some nice models in Cerulean Blue. http://cdnd.lystit.com/photos/2012/03/09/notte-by-marchesa-blue-cerulean-silk-crepe-v-neck-dress-product-1-3034063-603545283_large_flex.jpeg http://www.veositges.com/images/Herve%20Leger%202011/20121109104460618.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire31 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Yes, very nice! Er… what was that you said about some blue colour now? Kind regards, Joachim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPL Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yes, very nice! Er… what was that you said about some blue colour now? Kind regards, Joachim Very appropriate: Shows were Mitchell got his inspiration from. NPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Just a little seasonal spice, I thought colour chips were boring. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Great idea John Can we start a petition for this style cataloging to replace FS and Methuen? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Quite appropriate, John- the second one definitely looks every bit a spitfire. So how did you get Rolls Royce to paint your SAAB then? bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 That would be tellin' John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_m Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 My apologies to whoever I pinched this from, but it's supposed to be the top half of a paperweight, used by Mitchell, on his office (or home) desk. Very interesting! Incredible that they had screen printed transfers and clear transparencies and engraved panel lines on a desk model in the 1930s. Mark Davies's well-known build of the 1/72 CMR kit seems to have captured a good likeness of Mitchell's own model. He even used the same style of stand... http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/cmr-172-spitfire-prototype-k5054-at-first-flight.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I know your comment was tongue in cheek and that is a modern model. However there were silk screen decals and celluloid canopies in the 1930's as well as injected kits and metal parts. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanik Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 After discovering Alleycat's Supermarine Type 300 kit and following Mike's excellent build, I picked up the kit myself. I did research and came to the following interpretation of the first flight configuration based on Mike's model. I hope this will be helpful for other modelers as a starting (or end) point of their builds.The most radical departure from Mike's model will be the highly-polished, non-passivated wing surfaces. I came to the conclusion, that the wings appear to shiny for a passivated surface, thus it will be a "green" fuselage with "silver" wings.Image courtesy of Mike, Imperial War Museum, Aerojournal and the internet. Here some evidence I base my opinion on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Very interesting! Incredible that they had screen printed transfers and clear transparencies and engraved panel lines on a desk model in the 1930s. Mark Davies's well-known build of the 1/72 CMR kit seems to have captured a good likeness of Mitchell's own model. He even used the same style of stand...Your sarcasm is noted, and the information, in fact, comes as something of a relief, since I've never really been able to accept that the rudder was silver, given that it appears, in so many photographs, to be a similar dark shade to the rest of the fuselage. Even Harry Robinson's drawing depicts it as dark, not the same light "colour" as the cowling, which has always made me wonder if Supermarine obeyed the instruction, from the Ministry, that "The aircraft is to be constructed throughout in metal," to the letter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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