Heston Flight Hudson

[Vesa Jussila]

Hi,

I found interesting photo about RAF Hudson Mk.1 and thought made a model about it, but there is some questions about it.

What is main color?

Color of registration letters?

Where are cameras located?

I assume that armament was removed, but was there other modifications?

What is best kit to use in 1/72 or 1/48?

Picture was taken in Malmi airport 1940 when plane was photographing Kuola peninsula. For me it's unknown if this mission was successful.

I think that RAF registration was N7364.

Br. Vesa

[ben_m]

Hi Vesa, Could you email me a hi resolution version of that photo? [email protected]

The registration was G-AGAR and was painted overall camotint (sky). Depending on the time frame for you model it either had no civil codes or serial, or any other markings it seems; civil codes only; civil codes with RAF roundels. Your photo is the first I have seen without the nose glazing painted over. British Airways was operating Lockheed 14s from Heston, so Sidney Cotton thought it would go unnoticed if he adapted a Hudson to look like a civilian aircraft for reconnaissance over the Soviet oilfields of the caucasus. This was to be the first stage of Operation Pike, the planning bombing of the oilfields to prevent the Russians providing oil to the Germans.

The following is pretty much all my references for this aircraft. There are lots of short accounts of the flights in some PR books, but nothing really detailed. Search for Operation Pike on Wikipedia if you are interested in the background. After the flights were successfully completed, the Hudson and its crew were stuck in the med after the fall of France, and they were used by 3PRU. The Hudson was destroyed by Italian fighters when on the ground in Heraklion, Crete.

(Sorry the scans of the original messages on the progress of the mission are not in order, I am just throwing everything up quickly.)

[ben_m]

PS I think the registration was probably in dark grey or maybe a dark green-grey. I am extrapolating that from what it is thought G-AFTL carried (although one profile I have seen of G-AFTL has red registraion and lightning bolt).

Another page from the book above, page 147 is not in the google books preview, unfortunately.

[Vesa Jussila]

Thanks a lot!

Information is very useful. It's interesting that there is just mentioned flight to Helsinki, but no any other information about what was photographed.

Br. Vesa

[ben_m]

It would be interesting to know where the first photo in this thread was taken- anyone have any idea what type of aircraft these are:

[Test Graham]

Buffalos. Presumably on their way to Finland.

[ben_m]

Buffalos. Presumably on their way to Finland.

Or maybe they were already there!

Thanks Graham.

[Vesa Jussila]

Hi,

Picture is taken in Malmi (Helsinki) airport Finland and planes behind are LeLv24 Brewsters. Because Brewsters are in silver paint it must be spring 1940.

Br. Vesa

[ben_m]

My apologies Vesa, I should have seen that in the first post- I was too excited by the photo to read all the way to the bottom of the text!

This thread has a bit of information on PR in Finland before the Winter War, and the bit at the very bottom is interesting:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3913

Interesting that Theodor Rowehl, in some ways Germany's counterpart of Sidney Cotton, was involved with the Finnish early PR.

[Pete in Lincs]

What a great film this (and the rest of the Sid Cotton story) would make.

It would be a shame if Hollywood got a hold of it though.

A very interesting topic, thanks to all involved.

Pete

[ben_m]

Pete: indeed, it is truly fascinating story.

Vesa: are you planning to build the MPM 1/72 kit or the 1/48 Classic Airframes? Both have tricky parts to the construction- I have a stalled MPM build put away in a box. If I ever get the the Public Records Office at Kew, I will take a look at AVIA2/2317 which the summary of G-AGAR's service references for the Helsinki mission, and see if there are any more details.

[Colin S-K]

As already said,

Fascinating.....!

I have nothing more to add to this... Other than it is a little known story and would like to see it get more publicity.

Any more info very much gratefully received.

Colin

Photo Recce SIG

[John Thompson]

Probably not much help, but this aircraft was included in the old 1/72 Almark decal sheet A36, "P.R. Markings Europe". Unfortunately only the N7364 serial is on the sheet, not the G-AGAR civil registration. The instructions have a brief summary, as already provided so well by ben m, of the aircraft's later history and destruction on Crete, but no reference to Operation Pike.

John

[Vesa Jussila]

Vesa: are you planning to build the MPM 1/72 kit or the 1/48 Classic Airframes? Both have tricky parts to the construction- I have a stalled MPM build put away in a box. If I ever get the the Public Records Office at Kew, I will take a look at AVIA2/2317 which the summary of G-AGAR's service references for the Helsinki mission, and see if there are any more details.

I think I will use 1/48 Classic Airframes kit and I know it's not necessarily easiest kit to build and maybe it will need more detail work as well.

This is bit of topic but when ben_m mentioned Theodor Rowehl, there is second side note about him from Malmi airport. Hansa Luftbild aeroplane Junkers 86Z-2 crash landed in Malmi 1.10.1939. This Junkers was as well recce plane with civil registration D-AFFT. Plane was shipped back to Germany later that year. Some days later RAF Lockheed 14 (Hudson) visited in Malmi and there was need to hide this Junkers. Unfortunately I don't have any information about identity of this RAF plane.

Br. Vesa

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Vesa, I suppose the photo is from Suomen ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti ( http://www.kolumbus.fi/SIL/ ) -magazine issue 2/2000? It contains short article about the plane written by Jukka Raunio and drawings by Pentti Manninen.

Mr. Pentti Manninen is the virtually one-man-band behind the SIL magazine. Magazine e-mail is: [email protected] . If no response from there and you genuinely want to research this to bottom I suppose I could intermediate message to Pentti. AFAIK he has or knows where to get the original photo.

Cheers,

Kari

Edited November 3, 2010 by Kari Lumppio

[Vesa Jussila]

Hello!

Vesa, I suppose the photo is from Suomen ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti ( http://www.kolumbus.fi/SIL/ ) -magazine issue 2/2000? It contains short article about the plane written by Jukka Raunio and drawings by Pentti Manninen.

Mr. Pentti Manninen is the virtually one-man-band behind the SIL magazine. Magazine e-mail is: [email protected] . If no response from there and you genuinely want to research this to bottom I suppose I could intermediate message to Pentti. AFAIK he has or knows where to get the original photo.

Cheers,

Kari

Hello Kari,

Copy of photo is from Hallinportti museum, I think that is same source as Mr. Manninen. I don't know where it came to Halli. I will visit in Jyväskylä area next week and I will pick up SIL magazine you mentioned from Tikkakoski.

Br. Vesa

[Vingtor]

From the journals of Bromma Airfield, Stockholm, I can confirm the dates for the Helsinki flight. The journals say however hat the pilot for the return flight was Heath, not MacPhail.

I am currently writing a book on the courier flights between Britain and Sweden, and I would like to add a chapter on this flight. I would also like to get high resolution photos as illustrations for the book, if possible.

I am planning to visit the National Archives at Kew next week, and I will put AVIA2/2317 on my list of documents to study. I hope to find something of interest there.

Nils

[Vingtor]

This is bit of topic but when ben_m mentioned Theodor Rowehl, there is second side note about him from Malmi airport. Hansa Luftbild aeroplane Junkers 86Z-2 crash landed in Malmi 1.10.1939. This Junkers was as well recce plane with civil registration D-AFFT. Plane was shipped back to Germany later that year. Some days later RAF Lockheed 14 (Hudson) visited in Malmi and there was need to hide this Junkers. Unfortunately I don't have any information about identity of this RAF plane.

It could possibly be British Airways L14 G-AFMR. According to the Bromma journals this aircraft made a flight to Helsinki on 4 October, arriving 10:51 and returning (to Stockholm) 13:18. This was the only Lockheed aircraft flying to Helsinki from Stockholm that month, and the last one before G-AGAR in April 1940. There were some flights with BAL Ju 52s though, until the end of November.

Nils

[Vingtor]

I could not find anything on G-AGAR and its flight to Helsinki the AVIA 2/2317 file at Kew. I will however take another look on my copies to see if I have missed something.

Nils

[ben_m]

Thank you Nils for looking. Is there anything that mentions blockade runners (which is noted after the reference in the document I posted)?

[Test Graham]

With thanks to people on the Steel Navy site, the following reference to the blockade runnners:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/blockade-busters-R...8421&sr=1-6

Which may or may not be relevant to this Hudson flight.

[ben_m]

With thanks to people on the Steel Navy site, the following reference to the blockade runnners:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/blockade-busters-R...8421&sr=1-6

Which may or may not be relevant to this Hudson flight.

Very interesting Graham, as Ralph Barker also wrote the biography of Cotton. Thanks for the lead.

[Vingtor]

Very interesting Graham, as Ralph Barker also wrote the biography of Cotton. Thanks for the lead.

Same here. Book ordered.

Nils

[Vingtor]

Not much about G-AGAR in AVIA 2/2317 I'm afraid. The only document mentioning this aircraft was this.

The rest of AVIA 2/2317 concerns the British/Norwegian civil route between Britain and Sweden in general.

Nils

[Hamsterman]

Looks like this thread hasn't been active for quite some time but thought it might be interesting to share this photo which I found on Brian Spurr's Facebook page dedicated to his father's WWII service.  

 

https://www.facebook.com/brian.peter.spurr/media_set?set=a.10155217058756901&type=3

 

The photo shows a Lockheed L-10 Electra named "Cloudy Joe".  According to the caption on Brian's page, "It seems the factory serial of this aircraft is 1124 and it carried registrations YU-SBB and AX701. It was involved in a Operation Pike to photograph the Iraq oil fields."  What's peculiar (at least to me) is that the book that was mentioned earlier in this thread, Operation Pike: Britain Versus the Soviet Union, 1939-1941, refers to a customized twin-engine Lockheed 12A aircraft, equipped with extra fuel tanks and standard 5" RAF aerial cameras (one mounted vertically and two mounted at 40-degree angles.  It also refers to a Lockheed Super Electra 14 named "Cloudy Joe", but no L-10 Electra.  In the photos of G-AGAR posted above, I don't see the name "Cloudy Joe" painted on the plane, only on the L-10 Electra.  That said, if the name was painted in white on G-AGAR, it probably wouldn't be visible.  So, was the 12A Electra a mis-recognition of the L-10 Electra in this photo or was the L-10 Electra also involved in Op. Pike?  Was more than one plane christened "Cloudy Joe"?  

Cheers!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Hamsterman
Edit to include link to Brian Spurr's FB page