Harriers to go in defence review

[Giorgio N]

Giorgio, I think it's just the feeling that the British public are denied any vote on anything to do with the EU and any associated treaty (especially Lisbon) that makes us mighty sceptical, and if you scratch below the surface of it, it's not very pleasant or democratic.

Anyway, this is not an EU thread (even though I raised the subject). My apologies.

I'm not sure there's any need to apologise ! I just hope that my explanations will make some things a bit clearer Especially as I know myself how complicated this EU stuff is.

Anyway I can understand yours and the feelings of most Britmodellers in light of today's announcements. Unfortunately these are exceptional time that are requiring exceptional measures. The same is going on eveywhere (I know it's of little consolation..) and not only in the military.

[Andrew Jones]

Noticed on BBC six o'clock news, several military personnel including "Sharkey" Ward ,condemning the axing of the Harrier. The admiral who was the driving force behind the new carriers was dismayed at the decision, leaving no fixed-wing aircraft for the ships until 2019. I mean , what good is a carrier with no aircraft ?.

[spike7451]

I see also the C-130J in-service life is cut by ten years..

Page28...

http://www1.sky.com/news/DefenceReview.pdf

[Simon Cornes]

So Vertical take off for us Brits is finished then? I see that the FAA are getting the conventional take off F-35 so I presume we will be leasing F/A-18s as soon as a carrier becomes available! Presumably we are subcontracting FAA aircrew to the USN and Marine Corps so that the Americans get some limeys to work with them and we have some pilots who know how to travel faster than a couple of hundred knots above the sea?

I see the Herc is going 10 years early? Still, there's plenty of time for the Government of the Day to decide that we have to go to war care of Easy Jet - Carry on luggage only - and I suppose you can cram the avionics from Nimrod MRA 4 into a Boeing 757? Not sure where you put the explody bits though?

I also noticed that the Army of the Rhine are coming home in 10 years time. I suppose the Germans won't want their supermarkets and garages losing so many customers in one go eh?

Poor old Ark Royal. I'm sure the Indians or the Pakistanis or Australians will want to buy her - about £15 mill including refit sounds reasonable? And Lusty or Ocean to go, depending on which is less good for helicopters? Well that'll be Lusty then. Anyone want to buy a pair of Invincible class carriers then - how does £25M for two sound? Talking of which, what did happen to Invincible? Sorry, lost track of that one.

A sad day on so many levels

[Windy]

This may not be 100% accurate but it is basically true

[Simon Cornes]

Noticed on BBC six o'clock news, several military personnel including "Sharkey" Ward ,condemning the axing of the Harrier. The admiral who was the driving force behind the new carriers was dismayed at the decision, leaving no fixed-wing aircraft for the ships until 2019. I mean , what good is a carrier with no aircraft ?.

Presumably Lt Cdr Kris Ward's dad?

[Séan Pádraig]

Did you know that more people took part in last weeks x-factor vote than the last general election? Enough said I think.

I would be interested in seeing proof to this claim.

[FZ6]

A terrible shame is all I can sayas other people seem to have already covered what I think, maybe it's a decision that will be regretted in years to come.

As No 1 squadron is allegedly a protected name plate what will they be equipped with in the mean time when the Harrier goes? Will they get eurofighters or will an existing squadron take the name instead?

[AnonymousDFB1]

I just can't see the logic behind the results of this review. If what has been decided is wrong, what should we have cut? Not trying to be contentious, but money has got to be saved from somewhere.

Mish, who is not looking forward to tomorrows spending review as it might mean that I will have no job.

[Scarlet]

Here's a point,as Kinloss is also the SAR center for the UK,where's that going to go to now?....

Probably contract it out to a call centre in India.

[AirfixAndy]

A very sad day ..........but some good news !!

" Our new Rivet Joint aircraft will gather vital intelligence. ".......... as quoted SDR PDF page 9.

NEW !!!

Jesus Christ above......do they think we are as retarded as they are ??

New as in 40 years new ???

I cant believe this pile of excrement ....I feel for the men and women who have fought or are fighting for this country and have now been on from a great height by people in suits who have no idea of reality.

Shame on the lot of you.

A very peed off Andy

[borz666]

On reading the documents linked in this thread, and... that the goverment follow through on them, the are fitting the Cat and Arrestors both the carriers and rather than get the STOVL f-35 we will procure the the conventional version. (good!) What they may do (my personal speculation here) is station a co/op USN wing until the JSF is on line???

I agree it is madness to scrap the Harrier since we've already paid for them and the airframe is good for another 15 years or so and I've been told they are'nt that expesive to keep ( I may very well be wrong). still.... beyond me!

Don't know what point I'm trying to make, just sayin' thats all!

Chris

[keefr22]

From the above document,

"withdraw the Sentinel airborne ground surveillance aircraft once it is no longer required to support operations in Afghanistan."

And then when we blithely follow our 'Special Allies' into the next bout of unpleasentness, we'll have to buy new ones to provide the same resource....

[keefr22]

Oh well looks like we could have a European Army, but do we really want to fight alongside the Italians, Germans and French?

I think we already do Daz - It's called NATO....

[spike7451]

On reading the documents linked in this thread, and... that the goverment follow through on them, the are fitting the Cat and Arrestors both the carriers and rather than get the STOVL f-35 we will procure the the conventional version. (good!) What they may do (my personal speculation here) is station a co/op USN wing until the JSF is on line???

I agree it is madness to scrap the Harrier since we've already paid for them and the airframe is good for another 15 years or so and I've been told they are'nt that expesive to keep ( I may very well be wrong). still.... beyond me!

Don't know what point I'm trying to make, just sayin' thats all!

Chris

We have to bin the Harrier to keep the Tornado....

Have a read at comment '2A-15' on page 28;

http://www1.sky.com/news/DefenceReview.pdf

[Séan Pádraig]

I know as a modelling forum this one is more one sided than most when it comes to having ex-service members but I'm sorry doing your duty (which for some was simply a career choice) does not mean you are more entitled to have money we don't have spent on you.

I've seen a few comments along the lines of Churchill or Nelson would be spinning in his grave… This country is facing a very dark time and it falls on every man, woman and child to work together to get the country through this tough time... I think doing your duty has simply taken on a new meaning and Nelson would expect each man to do his duty even it that is to do what it can yo reduce the crippling deficit.

[AirfixAndy]

We have to bin the Harrier to keep the Tornado....

Apparently because the Tonka flies faster !!

"Retaining the Tornado fleet allows a fast jet contribution to be sustained in Afghanistan and support to concurrent operations which would not have been possible if Harrier was retained instead;"

I am a very proud Tonka lover but no way is it better at CAS than a Harrier . Simples .

Andy....who loves Tonkas but has had an affair with Harriers for some time !!

[XV107]

Kris Ward (aka 'Mental' - yes, I know...) is indeed Sharkey Ward's son. He is, though, a bit more favourably disposed to the RAF than his dad.

1(F) isn't a 'protected' number plate. There are two of these, 617 and um... 120. Their 'protection' comes from having been awarded their sqn standards ahead of the normal 25 year limitation (i.e. only after 25 years accumulated service).

As it is one of the most senior squadrons, I would guess that it will simply reform as the fourth front-line Typhoon squadron up at Leuchars.

Of the GR4 units - II(AC) is the RAF's most senior squadron, and is almost certain to survive whatever happens in terms of basing. 617 is also a near shoo-in for survival whatever happens - it is alleged that CAS wanted to cut the Red Arrows, but was given direction from No.10 that this was a cut which the government would not permit him to make [to hell with any loss of operational capability, the Daily Express headlines were more important. Allegedly], so binning the Dambusters isn't likely. As for the other squadrons, it depends upon whether the GR4 force goes into one base, or stays at both, or whether Lossie says just for the OCU, etc, etc. Again, if the force structure review turns up with a cunning plan which sees the RAF have smaller sized squadrons (there are some decent operational reasons why you might at least think about doing this), then all of that might change as well...

[Master Zen]

Lunacy...

Still, think of how much more ring fenced money for plowing into the EU sinkhole, sending abroad and educating immigrant kids the "Government" will be able to earmark as a result of slicing up our Armed Forces..

Considering how foreign students -such as myself- came to the UK, paid 5 times more than a Brit for tuition fees and on top of that don't get a penny out of benefits despite paying just as much taxes as the rest now that we work, I think you should show some goddamn respect for the contribution that these "immigrant kids" like me give to your society.

[canberraman]

CAS today briefed the RAF Families Federation on the effects of the SDSR and said this specifically about the Tornado fleet:

I quote

The Combat Air Fleet will be streamlined. The Tornado GR4 Fleet will be reduced to a size commensurate with current and contingent operations based on a minimum of 5 operational squadrons and an OCU. The Tornado will retire progressively once the Typhoon Force has the capability and force size to take on the Offensive Support task.

End

My guess is that Lossiemouth will begin the slow transition to F-35 and will suffer the initial loss of Tornado sqns. However, as Tornado reaches its out of service date, I would suspect that Marham will cease to be an RAF station and its infrastructure will be taken over by the Army returning from Germany.

Of the GR4 units - II(AC) is the RAF's most senior squadron, and is almost certain to survive whatever happens in terms of basing. 617 is also a near shoo-in for survival whatever happens - it is alleged that CAS wanted to cut the Red Arrows, but was given direction from No.10 that this was a cut which the government would not permit him to make [to hell with any loss of operational capability, the Daily Express headlines were more important. Allegedly], so binning the Dambusters isn't likely. As for the other squadrons, it depends upon whether the GR4 force goes into one base, or stays at both, or whether Lossie says just for the OCU, etc, etc. Again, if the force structure review turns up with a cunning plan which sees the RAF have smaller sized squadrons (there are some decent operational reasons why you might at least think about doing this), then all of that might change as well...

[hovis]

My heart actually goes out (even more) tonight to those on the front line in Afghanistan.

How are you supposed to perform after news like this? A huge cloud of depression is not going to do our servicemen any good right now

As for the carriers, from what I gather, the QE will be built without ramp or CATOBAR. The PoW will be build with CATOBAR and thus will be the first to carry airplanes. As soon as PoW comes online, the QE will then go into dock to have CATOBAR fitted. So no interim F/A-18's or Rafales I'm afraid.

[spike7451]

My heart actually goes out (even more) tonight to those on the front line in Afghanistan.

How are you supposed to perform after news like this? A huge cloud of depression is not going to do our servicemen any good right now

As for the carriers, from what I gather, the QE will be built without ramp or CATOBAR. The PoW will be build with CATOBAR and thus will be the first to carry airplanes. As soon as PoW comes online, the QE will then go into dock to have CATOBAR fitted. So no interim F/A-18's or Rafales I'm afraid.

That's why all non essential flight ops have been grounded till Friday.

[hovis]

That's why all non essential flight ops have been grounded till Friday.

Big of them....

[roys]

C4 news tonight-Liam Fox told to lose Nimrod,against his wishes. Isn't Nimrod part of the war on terror? £2 billion spent on it since 1996 and just coming into service but the media show years out of date archive footage

[thx6667]

A once common sight in British waters, a changing global environment has seen this fine, nobel breed suffer a decline in numbers over the last six decades to the point that they are now on the verge of extinction.

And in the foreground, an Osprey.