Spitfire IXc Vs. IXe

[Davec_24]

Hi all,

I have the Revell/Hasegawa Spitfire IXc in the stash, but would like to finish it to represent the BBMF's Mk.IX, which is a LFIXe. Do any of you know what would be involved in converting the Hasegawa kit into this type?

Presumably the cannon would be shifted to the outboard gun bays, and a .50 cal put in the inboard bays - that shouldn't be too difficult. However, I'm no expert on the Spitfire, so am at a loss as to what else would need altering to make the Spit look "right" externally.

I'd appreciate any help/pointers that folk could give regarding this one!

Cheers

[TheModeller]

I'd appreciate any help/pointers that folk could give regarding this one!

All you really need to do to be close enough is swap the gun breech fairings on the cannon access panels, they moved outboard on the IXe to accommodate the new position for the cannon.

You could just chop the angled aft edges from the kit panels, swap them over then fill, sand and fix in place, to be accurate the 'e' patter fairings are slightly longer or is it taller?

Fit the pointed rudder, and check the elevators, most (but not all?) IXe's had the later elevators with larger horn balances, the BBMF machine is so fitted, the difference is in the elevator hinge line but I'm not sure now what pattern elevators the Hase kit is supplied with.

[Edgar]

A lot will depend on whether you're intending to build it "as is," or "as was." As well as moving the cannon barrel out, you need to shorten it, by the parallel "middle bit," since the gun was also moved back, as well as out; this also means that the bulge was moved back, (it was fractionally bigger, too, but I doubt that you'll need to go that far.)

The IXe was, mostly, post-D-day, so the extended elevator horns, and "Mk.XII" rudder are essential.

Early converted IXe simply had the redundant muzzle and ejector chutes, on the 3 & 4 .303" positions, covered by double thicknesses of fabric patches (not necessarily red,) while later airframes had smooth covers, and no holes in the wing l/e.

If the aircraft was used for ground attack, including bombs, 4-spoke wheels are a must (it's probably got 3-spoke, today.)

Open up the second ejector chute, under the cannon, in each gun bay.

In 1944, there would have been an I.F.F. bar aerial under the starboard wing, and, probably, a beam approach aerial under the radio compartment.

The wheel wells would not have had the teardrop-shaped bulge, on the upper surface of the wing, in 1944/5; they came post-war.

Straps on rudder pedals were deleted in February 1944.

Sutton harness in 1944, QS (or similar) today.

U/c indicator rods still in existence before August, 1944, probably not today.

No torque links, on oleo legs, until post-war, and should have smooth tyres.

Unlikely to carry the gyro gunsight, in 1944 (they seem to have been reserved for the fighters, rather than ground attack.)

Edgar

[Davec_24]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful info! Now I've got to see if I can get hold of some markings for such a colour scheme as that silver one. I do think they look rather cool in silver...

[Miggers]

You want to do MK as she is today?

She has e wings fitted but they're not hers,nor is the pointy rudder.

She was actually built as an IXc with c wings,standard tips and standard rudder.

The e wings were fitted in a mix up(can't just remember which airframe's they are though)

and the big rudder fitted because it handles a crosswind better and it's a smidge easier to taxy

with it.

The rudder came from SL???(I think)which was one of the two "display" airframes.

One was spares recovered(i.e totally stripped)t'other is the LF XVI currently being rebuilt

by Paul Blackah and co in the BBMF hangar.

Pretty sure MK has the later "link" type u/c legs fitted,she certainly has the overwing bulges because

she uses the bigger diameter wider tyred 3 spoke wheels introduced on the Mk 21.

Do a search on airliners.net for "MK356",there's some good shots of her in her earlier clipped winged

cammo scheme and the present all silver "Des Ibbotson" scheme,but either will yield the details

you're looking for.

Mark

[The wooksta V2.0]

The wheel wells would not have had the teardrop-shaped bulge, on the upper surface of the wing, in 1944/5; they came post-war.

Edgar

I'm looking to add the new Airfix F.IXc wing to a Vb fuselage for a whiffed late Vc. Are these the largish bulges or the smaller ones that I remove?

TIA

[Edgar]

Sorry, I don't have the kit, but, apart from the cannon bulges, and the small bulge on the rear of the no.4 gun cover, the upper surface should be smooth. As well as the (largish) teardrop bulge, over the wheel well, the IX & XVI had very thin, narrow bulges just outboard, between the wheel and cannon bays. I haven't a clue what they were for, but, as far as I can discover, they were not on the Vc.

Edgar

[Dave Fleming]

.

One was spares recovered(i.e totally stripped)

TB382 - ex-602 Squadron, and former mount of Raymond Baxter. TE311 was in the better condition of the two airframes.

[Davec_24]

You want to do MK as she is today?

I was actually thinking of doing the aircraft she is currently done out to represent, which was MJ250. I figured this would give me a little more of an opportunity to do some weathering, and also add some bombs if I feel like it! Any idea whether MJ250 was a IXc or IXe? Ah, all these ever so slightly different Spitfire marks give one a headache...

[Edgar]

MJ250 was a IXc; apart from there being only a very slim chance of a IXe getting to Italy, by the time that photo was taken, you can tell, by the length of the cannon barrel, that it's a "C".

Edgar

[Davec_24]

MJ250 was a IXc; apart from there being only a very slim chance of a IXe getting to Italy, by the time that photo was taken, you can tell, by the length of the cannon barrel, that it's a "C".

Edgar

Cheers Edgar! That makes things easier, in the sense that the kit does a IXc out of the box without cutting up blisters and the likes.

Would I be looking at the "normal" or pointed rudder for one this late? Also, have you any pictures of the aeriels you mentioned earlier (if they'd be present on an IXc as well as the IXe)? I'm probably just being stupid, but which photo were you referring to in the above?

[Edgar]

This one; it's difficult to see, clearly, but there do not appear to be any IFF aerials (could have had the Mk.III IFF, by then, perhaps, which puts the aerial under the starboard wing, out of sight,) nor any dark dots, where they would have been fitted (if the aerials were deleted, the groundcrew were told to cover them, and the redundant tailplane fittings, with fabric patches.) Note the single bomb, under the fuselage; Spitfires were not supposed to carry bombs under the wings, unless they had the stronger 4-spoke wheels; I'm not saying that everyone stuck to that rule, of course. Rounded rudder, too.

I suspect that the top cowling was left green, as an anti-glare precaution, but it could, of course, have been black. Likewise, the codes and serial, having been repainted, might be red, but that could just be the quality (or lack of it) of the photo.

Edgar

Edited September 3, 2010 by Edgar

[The wooksta V2.0]

Sorry, I don't have the kit, but, apart from the cannon bulges, and the small bulge on the rear of the no.4 gun cover, the upper surface should be smooth. As well as the (largish) teardrop bulge, over the wheel well, the IX & XVI had very thin, narrow bulges just outboard, between the wheel and cannon bays. I haven't a clue what they were for, but, as far as I can discover, they were not on the Vc.

Edgar

Thanks, Edgar. You've been very helpful. Knew I could rely on you.

[Davec_24]

Wooksta: nice to see I'm not the only one confused about these Spit wings and all that!

Thanks for the picture Edgar, that's excellent! There's definitely some sort of "anti-glare" panel in front of the windscreen, isn't there? The BBMF's paint job doesn't include this. I presume the silver was painted on over the camouflage and was thus silver paint as opposed to bare metal. That makes my life a touch easier.

Damn, she has 5-spoke wheels; the kit I have has 4-spoke wheels, or ones with no visible spokes (wheel hubs fitted or something?). Hmm... will get my thinking hat on about that one...

As for the bomb-rack, was the under-fuselage installation similar to what you'd find under the wings, as I could potentially graft one of the wing mounts from the kit under the central fuselage. Not much ground clearance with that bomb slung underneath, eh?

[Davec_24]

I've just seen a profile of this bird which says she was stripped to bare metal, though from the photograph Edgar put up earlier, I'm still inclined towards silver paint. I can't see any real difference between the reflectivity or finish of the fabric-covered areas to the rest of the aircraft, and the roundel (obviously painted) is just as shiny as the airframe. However, I'm no expert; anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Edgar]

Sorry to spoil your fun, but I think that the paint was stripped off, which leaves you with a lovely natural metal surface ; why add more weight, for no gain in performance? To soften the blow, a little, there's nothing to say that you can't use the plain "wheels." They were, in fact, plain covers, which went over the hubs; initially designed for keeping out snow, in 1940/41, they were also used against mud and sand.

Edgar

[Davec_24]

Well, the finish looks quite dull at any rate. Mind you, I guess you probably wouldn't bother as much with anti-glare if the aircraft was painted silver rather than NMF (e.g. all-over High-Speed Silver on post-war stuff). Still, the rudder doesn't look much different in shade; was it still canvas-covered on the Mk. IX? Either way, I don't mind too much if it is NMF rather than silver paint... yet...

Full or clipped wings? It's sort of hard to see from that angle! Also, is there any evidence (other than other people's builds etc.) to show she had the "early" C-wing blisters?

I thought the smooth wheel things were probably covers. I suppose they'd help fair the gear in when retracted, also. Not sure as they look quite as cool, though... Thanks again for the info!

[Work In Progress]

Well, the finish looks quite dull at any rate. Mind you, I guess you probably wouldn't bother as much with anti-glare if the aircraft was painted silver rather than NMF (e.g. all-over High-Speed Silver on post-war stuff). Still, the rudder doesn't look much different in shade; was it still canvas-covered on the Mk. IX? Either way, I don't mind too much if it is NMF rather than silver paint... yet...

Anyone who's ever polished a natural metal aeroplane knows that it quickly goes dull, especially if left outside. It takes a lot of effort to keep them really shiny!

The fabric on the rudder and elevators would be silver dope over the fabric, yes.

[Edgar]

Without a date, for that photo, it's difficult to say, but the narrow bulges began to see service in January, 1944; when they'd have arrived in Italy, though.......... The photo does give the impression of the tips being clipped, and, if they were used solely for ground attack, from a fairly medium altitude, it's entirely feasible; but, then, with the extra weight of a bomb, in Italy's heat, would they have needed all the lift they could get?

Edgar

[Miggers]

TB382 - ex-602 Squadron, and former mount of Raymond Baxter. TE311 was in the better condition of the two airframes.

Thanks Dave.

I hadn't my BBMF/Lincolnshire Lancaster Association Member's books to hand and couldn't remember off hand.

Re the wheels and overall finish:

If you want to do the "real" MJ250(LFIXc) as she was with 601 Sqn(UF*Q)in Italy from July '44 when operating

from Perugia,Loreto and Fano,then for the wheels use a pair of five spokes as supplied in the Airfix Vb or original Mk 1 kit

,build from the box but remove the bulges over the wheel wells.

MJ250 was highly unusual in having a polished natural metal finish,as seen in the photo Edgar has posted,

(which incidentally is the only wartime photo of MJ250 in existence)most of 601's other Spits had the

usual Desert Airforce sand and brown camoflage.

If you want to represent the colour scheme,squadron codes and aircraft ident letter as is

currently presented on the BBMF IX,MK356,you will need a pair of three spoke wheels from the PR.XIX kit,

a broad chord rudder as in the Italeri IX,Heller XVI or a Pavla resin item.

You'll also need to modify the wings to e type,but leave on the bulges over the wheel wells,use a High Speed Silver finish,

along with making up the serial MK356 in 8" black characters.

As to the wing tips,well,the BBMF re-fitted standard tips to MK instead of clipped tips to represent MJ250.

As they do their research properly for their subjects,it's reasonable to assume that the "real"

MJ250 had standard tips fitted.

She is presented as UF*Q,MJ250 of 601 Sqn when being flown by F/L Des Ibbotson,DFC.

Mark

Edited September 3, 2010 by Miggers

[Davec_24]

Thanks for all your input in this one, guys. It's really good to have the help and advice of those better informed than myself; when I get around to building this Spit, she'll be all the better for it.