Attention Luftwaffe Gurus! Colour Help pleeeease

[AnonymousFO98]

Hi Chaps

Am intending to build a Ju87-B2 of 7/St.G.77

F1+LR

According to the Italeri 1/72 instructions this aircraft participated in the Battle of Britain August 1940.

Firstly as we always start with the cockpit, instructions say FS34227 Pale Green as the interior colour which seems to translate as RLM99

(as yet not cross referenced this but it doesn't sound correct)

RLM 70 Schwartzgrun

I have Hu91 as a possible alternatives and also Vallejo 830

RLM 71 Dunkelgrun

Hu116 and Vallejo 888

Please note I am limited to Humbrol and Vallejo though Revell is accessible and at a push Tamiya.

would these conversions sound okay. Not looking for 100% but near as will do for a mole in a mine.

As long as I don't have to mix 5 or so colours together a la Revell

Thanks in advance.

ps any BoB info for this aircraft/unit would also be helpful

Still trying to come up with hard facts. The decal sheet maybe correct but corroborative evidence would be wonderful

[Matt Roberts]

70/71/65 overall (black green/dark green/light blue) and the cockpits early in the war were RLM 02 gray. Props were Black Green. This is the basic camo for all Stukas even D/G airframes - I never heard of cockpits being anything other than RLM 02, even after fighters changed over to RLM 66 black/gray

Now if you don't have RLM 02 USN Gull Gray is a close enough, especially weathered. I remember before the 'true' WW II colors arived over here with Polly Scale and Model Master was the only source - and all modern colors - Gull Gray was what I used.

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks Matt

Just checking on Urban's Colour Chart Hu116 is also given for RLM 71. Good enough for me as I have recently bought some Humbrol Acrylic.

For RLM02 and 70 there are mixture recipes and life is too short

I assume you mean Light Gull Grey rather than Dark?

US Gull Grey is given as Hu 129

RLM 65 is Hu65 iirc

Just leaves Hu70 which I have one source saying Hu91

That sounds promising as there are acrylics available for all those

[tango98]

Boy Walrus, you sure know how to pick ‘em !

Anyway, Matt has the camo colours covered for you so a bit of a blurb about the unit follows (just to confound you a bit more!):

Although the main operational code assigned to St.G.77 was S2, in July 1940 the I./St.G.76 was transferred to St.G.77 to become its III. Gruppe but retained its original I./St.G.76 code of F1 and the Staffel letters of R, S & T until circa April 1942 when it changed to the S2 code to conform to the rest of Geschwader 77.

In the case of F1+LR the F1 identifies the parent Geschwader, the letter L is the individual aircraft letter and the R identifies the Staffel within the Gruppe. The F1 and R were solid black but the L was either painted in the Staffel colour of white or applied as a solid black letter with a white outline. This letter was repeated beneath the wings outboard of the crosses in black and again in the same location on the top of the wings in white. It was also not uncommon for the individual aircraft letter to be carried on the front of each landing gear spat (again in the Staffel colour) and as was the case with many of the Stukas of this Staffel, the tip of the spinner would also have been white.

It was also common for Stuka units to carry their respective emblems on both sides of the forward fuselage just beneath the windscreen and in the case of the I./St.G.76 this was a white Steiermark Griffon on a green shield which the unit is known to have still been using on some of its Stukas in August 1940. Later this was changed to the III./St.G.77 emblem which consisted of a light blue and yellow shield on which was painted a black dragon/griffon head with a red beak.

If you’d like scans of these emblems just drop me a PM with your email address and I’ll zip ‘em off to you. From July 1940 until early 1941 the Gruppe was based at Argentan just south of Falaise.

I’ll also check though the Gen QM’s loss returns to see if it turns up anywhere for the July – October 1940 period. Incidentally, does the decal sheet provide a Werk Nummer for this particular aircraft?

Cheers

Dave

[Chuck1945]

The gull gray family of greys are too blue for RLM 02 Grau. The German color was a grey with a greenish cast. Tamiya has an RLM 02, but it is too dark imo, needs to be lightened, especially if using in a 1/72 Ju 87 cockpit.

Don't know anything about Humbrol matches however, since I mostly use Gunze, Tamiya, and PollyScale.

[Touvdal]

I have always used Humbrol for my models, it best paint when useing a brush in my opinion.

I use 70 - H91, 71 - H30, 65 - H65, 02 - H31

her is how 70/71 lookes

cheers

Jes

[Giorgio N]

You have two options in the vallejo range that can do for RLM 02: 886 green grey is not too different from the tamiya colour, maybe lighter. If you think this is still too dark, then 986 deck tan is a lighter greenish grey. A mix of the two is what I used before

[AnonymousFO98]

Thank you all for the replies

Colours seem okay then apart from RLM02. I may already have the Tamiya equivalent. (T:XF 22)

None of the options have Werk numbers.

The Griffon Emblem is provided as you describe Dave. Sadly it is the latter one despite the August date on the instructions.

This may mean the aircraft won't be eligible for the GB unless this was one of the Stukas that was used after August.

I have Hu30 in enamels but will probably go with the satin acrylic Hu116 unless it is too light?

If I can't use this Kit for the GB I won't be too disheartened as tbh it is a bland scheme imho

No campaign markings to break up the RLM 70/71 like on Jes's super He111

If I can use the kit will just have to get another one for the desert scheme

[John]

Having matched a number of Humbrol enamels against both the charts in Michael Ullman's book and the RAL equivalents he cites, Humbrol 31 is a good to fair match for 02. It's just about spot on or 63. 224 Dark Slate Grey is a good match for 02 provided you don't varnish it, when it becomes too dark.

John

[Wayne]

Colours seem okay then apart from RLM02. I may already have the Tamiya equivalent. (T:XF 22)

The Tamiya equivalent of RLM02 isn't straight XF-22 (RLM Grey). There are several formulae on the internet for mixing Tamiya acrylics to match RLM02, and opinion seems varied on which one is 'correct'. That being said, the one with XF-22 (RLM Grey), XF-49 (Khaki) and XF-2 (Flat White) seems to be the more popular one, and it's the one that i'm about to use with a Bf 109D-1 I have on my bench. Bear in mind too though that there is a lot of debate around the fact that RLM02 varied from factory to factory, and apparently as a result there were some very noticably different shades that were used under the designation of RLM02. The formulae I have found are -

1. 3 parts XF-2 (Flat White), 1 part XF-18 (Medium Blue), and 3 parts XF-22 (RLM Grey)

2. 2 parts XF-22 (RLM Grey), 1 part XF-49 (Khaki), and 1 part XF-2 (Flat White)

3. 1 part XF-22 (Flat White), and 1 part XF-49 (Khaki)

My aim is to help, so if I've added to your dilema I apologise.

Wayne

[pigsty]

I have Hu30 in enamels but will probably go with the satin acrylic Hu116 unless it is too light?

My personal view is that Hu30 is a tiny bit too blue for RLM 71.

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks Wayne

This is why I hate modelling in general and luftwaffe in particular

If I can get 63 in acrylic I may settle for that thanks John

I already have enough paint systems without starting a Vallejo collection if I can help it

[John]

Thanks Wayne

This is why I hate modelling in general and luftwaffe in particular

If I can get 63 in acrylic I may settle for that thanks John

I already have enough paint systems without starting a Vallejo collection if I can help it

Sorry, I should have said that Humbrol 31 is just about spot on for RLM 63!

31 isn't in the acrylic range yet, I don't think, but 224 is.

John

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks John

Good job I decided to postpone my little shopping spree! :lol;

I tend not to varnish interiors anyway

[Steven Eisenman]

BTW, as far as I know the Ju 87 did switch to Farbton 66.

BTW, has it been verified that it was a B-2 and not a B-1? B-2s were still pretty rare during that period.

B-1 and B-2 were different.

[rowmk9]

Hi. I've not long finished the aircraft you're talking about. To be honest, I was a little suspect of the colour of the 'L' in the code, Also there were no codes for under the wing. Still, it still looks like a Stuka to me, so I was happy! Hope it is still viable for your build. Stuka markings are fairly uncommon in the 1/72 aftermarket scene. I used Xtracrylix for the RLM 70/71 and Tamiya XF23 Light Blue for the underside. Not sure if thats correct, but I didn't care! hehe Heres a pic.

[avro683]

I was under the impression that Tamiya XF-22 was RLM 02. It certainly is very close to Valleja 02. According to Airfix, Humbrol 31 is very close too.

Tony

[Test Graham]

A couple of minor comments:

The model is nicely done, but over-clean. Any Stuka is likely to be dirty, and certainly one as weathered/scuffed as that. This is perhaps a comment on modelling style rather than the specific example.

RLM 99, from the original post. 99 was used to denote that the actual colour didn't matter, usually on internal parts. Prewar the full paint notation was written with a blank where the colour number would be. When they changed over to punched cards for record keeping, it was necessary to specify something in the appropriate columns, so they chose 99.

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks for the explanation of RLM99 Graham

Tony I think I will go with the Humbrol 224 for no other reason than I prefer them to Tamiya

Looks Nice Row!

I am starting to doubt whether I shall use this for the BoB GB and get HU63 for the desert yellow version.

The issue of B-1 and B-2 variants was my next question. I haven't seen any B-2's mentioned yet. Not that I would know the diffence if it hit me on the face with a blamanche.

I am thinking the Tropical version with the snake on the fuselage is more likely to be a B-2?

If so would Hu63 pass

It would just be an exercise in enjoyment for the scheme and markings so close enough is good enough, whereas The BoB I would want at least the correct sub-variant for the period.

[tango98]

Shame about it being the later emblem. However, if you want to go ahead and build it for the GB I can probably help out with some Stuka emblems that will work.

I'll poke through my collection of Nastywaffe stuff later today and let you know as there is an outside chance that I may even have the earlier emblem.

Cheers

Dave

[tango98]

Well I've just checked the loss lists and as Steven suggested, most of the Stukas from the III./St.G.77 were B-1s.

However, all is not lost as I've found the following B-2 casualties that fit into the B of B period and may be of interest:

W.Nr.5773, L1+AV of the IV./LG1 which force-landed at Tramescourt following a mid-air collision during an operational sortie on 2nd September.

W.Nr.5581, L1+?V of the IV./LG1 which crashed following collision with W.Nr. 5773.

W.Nr.5589, S2+CB of the I./St.G.77 which was damaged on landing at Maltot following a non-operational flight on 8th September.

W.Nr.5739, S2+HL of the 3./St.G.77 which crashed at Curfeuilles after a mid-air collision on 11 September.

W.Nr.5630, S2+FL of the 3./St.G.77 lost after colliding with S2+HL.

Cheers

Dave

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks Dave

I may start looking for a back up plan just in case.

I have a Bf109E-3 or 4 in the stash and may try to get some suitable markings

Edit: Have just been looking at a build of T6+KN of StG2 which was a B-2

(the one with the penguin on th enose if you know it)

Edited July 16, 2010 by walrus

[Steven Eisenman]

Tamiya RLM Gray is a terrible 02. But it makes a good Dark Slate gray for FAA aircraft.

[Touvdal]

This is a piece of this aircraft.

http://www.flensted.eu.com/g194058.shtml

It was picked up by the farmer and keept on the loft out of sunlight until recently. you can see 70, 02 , 65 and red primer on the inside of canvas.

well draw your own conclution.

I think the Humbrols are pretty close out of the tin, this makes it easier to keep you fleet look the same.

cheers

Jes

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks for the pics Jes!

I'm intrigued by the black brushstrokes and non linear demarcation

Have managed to find this

It shows the Griffon head emblem and F code on the fuselage, but no idea where the artist got the info from.

Also the legend states it was a B-1

Was there a lot of difference between the sub variants please?