Blue, Blue, My Love Is Azure Blue - and happily some of our paints are too 😀

[Dimmy]

(now,whether it is close to the medn. blue the R.A.F. used we'll leave for another day....!!)

+1

PS mentioning PRU Blue - that one in the Model Air colour chart looks a bit strange, doesn't it.....???

It's image from PDF scan so those "color chips" used only to show VERY approximate shades

[John]

The RAF used two different and distinct Mediterranean Blues, Dark and Light, so you would have to decide which one it was you were looking for and then which one the Vallejo paint represents.

John

[keefr22]

The RAF used two different and distinct Mediterranean Blues, Dark and Light, so you would have to decide which one it was you were looking for and then which one the Vallejo paint represents.

John

I know - I was wondering if it'll be somewhere between the two....!!

K

[Nick Millman]

As an aside, much as I really enjoy reading these colour discussions, I was wondering last night whether there's any point to them at all when it actually comes to model paint, as even if it was proved one brand was 100% dead on, the manufacturers then put their own hurdles in the way! Last night I was sorting out my paint stocks, trying to get them in some sort of order so I can actually find the paint I want when I need to use it. On other groups, I've read how Hannants take great care in matching their paint either to actual standards, chips or the paint itself where available. Great! IIRC, I've also read that they then spray the lids of the tinlets with the actual paint inside. Great again! How is it then, just as three examples, I have two tins of Xtracolor PRU Blue, the lids of which look nothing like each other, two tins of medium sea grey where the lids are totally different, & two tins of Barley grey where the lids are, yes, nothing like the same colour.....!!! The odd thing is (to me at least) it only seems to be greys/blues that are affected. The multiple tins of dark green, earth, tan etc that I have all seemed to look the same. But maybe that'll change when I look at them in daylight.....??!! And I won't mention how the 'same' colour in xtracolour & xtracrylix is often completely different too....!!

Keef

I think the vagaries of model paints make them especially relevant. Since no-one AFAIK is in a position to have examined the paintwork on each and every aircraft that ever left an aircraft factory, the documentary evidence of extant paint colour standards provides a benchmark and the comparison of hobby paints to those standards a means by which a reasonable choice might be made for the basic colour to be selected or mixed (before the art of modelling comes into it). Since not everyone has access to the standards, discussions or demonstrations like the ones in this thread ought to assist an informed choice. Oddly, colour photographs and extant artifacts always seem to attract more interest even though arguably less reliable as a benchmark (for many reasons) but triangulating from all the evidence available is probably best - triangulating towards a personal choice rather than seeking to conform to something.

Of course hobby paints vary, both in batches from the same manufacturer, and across manufacturers, as did real paint. But the only way to quantify how close or how far they might be from something useable is to understand and appreciate the original paint colour standard. Not because it was exactly that or a precise colour, but because it serves as a benchmark of the intended character of the original colour. Without that what is there? In paint terms variation is not always an enemy to accuracy but without a benchmark where can a line be drawn between what convinces and what doesn't? If that didn't matter to modellers there wouldn't be authentic ranges, requests for Tamiya mixes or comparison/conversion websites and hobby shops would sell a dozen or so paint tins labelled "green", "brown", "grey" and so on.

The alternative is to buy the paint in the tin or bottle suggested by the kit instructions or by the latest modelling consensus or from the advice of the forum poster who writes "I use x and it looks great" and not worry about it. As many do. And nothing wrong with that either.

I don't see it as essentially any different from discussing how prominent the seam down the back of a 109 should be on a 1/48th model. It matters desperately to some, moderately to others and to many not at all. Does that mean there is no point to the discussion? Depends which group you belong to I suppose. Japanese aircraft modellers often use the term "I chose" to describe the colours applied to a model, sometimes giving reasons and it is often a personal interpretation. They are generally comfortable with that and seldom get criticised for what are, in effect, creations of personal expression. The personal choices don't and shouldn't preclude any interest in the minutiae of the original colours. Maybe the desire to conform to something, to a single school of thought or to a group is a reflection of our increasingly conformist society where trends and rules have become somewhat blurred.

But one thing I have noticed is that when paint colours are discussed in anything approaching a serious way, those to whom it doesn't matter much or who believe that anything goes always seem to want to chip in to make this same point over and over again. Sometimes, as on Britmodeller, the impression is given that these discussions are unwanted and unwelcome, anal, sucking the lifeblood from the hobby and forcing model shops to close. So be it.

Nick

[occa]

ran across this

colour balance looks reasonable for WW2 film. Interesting to note the shades of the colour depending on the amount of light on it.

Also of note it appears the gear legs and maybe wheel wells are done in azure blue as well.... note blue overspray on tyre as well.

HTH

T

There you have the violet tint that most model colors named azure blue completely lack ...

Edited February 20, 2011 by occa

[keefr22]

But one thing I have noticed is that when paint colours are discussed in anything approaching a serious way, those to whom it doesn't matter much or who believe that anything goes always seem to want to chip in to make this same point over and over again. Sometimes, as on Britmodeller, the impression is given that these discussions are unwanted and unwelcome, anal, sucking the lifeblood from the hobby and forcing model shops to close. So be it.

That wasn't my intention at all. As I said I really enjoy these discussions & don't in any way think they are irrelevant or pointless. Or any of the other epithets you choose to attribute to my post. And given the technology available to paint manufacturers today, do you really think that "Of course hobby paints vary, both in batches from the same manufacturer, and across manufacturers, as did real paint."? While I accept that there will always be variations between manufacturers (who knows what standards, if any, they are working to) I don't accept that in the 21st century there should be within a manufacturers range, if there's anything like decent quality control going on & they claim they are working to a 'standard'!

And I'll make the point again that I do not in any way denigrate your, or anybody elses, point of view when it comes to colour discussions, & I'll also repeat again, that I really enjoy reading such discussions & learn a lot from them. But my own views on the colours of operational aircraft were absolutely decided for me by a very happy hour or so on a visit to R.A.F. Coningsby during the late 1970's when during a visit on my Initial Officers Training I was fortunate enough to have free access to the 64 sqn (228 OCU) ramp. Of the 18-20 Phantoms that came & went during that time, when you looked at any two parked next to each other, neither of them were ever the same colour. Now I know this point has also been made in colour discussion threads on this forum before, & that you have belittled it. But that's how it is in the real world, on working aeroplanes, & that's what I try (however poorly) to model. Whatever standards the paint on those Tooms was manufactured too mattered little after a couple of weeks of work!

Keef

[Nick Millman]

"And given the technology available to paint manufacturers today, do you really think that "Of course hobby paints vary, both in batches from the same manufacturer, and across manufacturers, as did real paint."?"

Yes, I do. And in fact your Phantoms anecdote tends to reinforce that - or at least not contradict it.

"Now I know this point has also been made in colour discussion threads on this forum before, & that you have belittled it."

Have I? The difference between paint standards and applied paint, e.g. variations, is one I'm always banging on about. As well as what happens to aircraft after being painted. My comment was about people (not necessarily you) intervening and belittling a serious interest in colours when they don't have to.

"But that's how it is in the real world, on working aeroplanes, & that's what I try (however poorly) to model. Whatever standards the paint on those Tooms was manufactured too mattered little after a couple of weeks of work!"

You think I don't appreciate that? You think I have never seen or been around real working aeroplanes? Anyway, doesn't your first comment, above, about quality control and modern technology kind of contradict that?

This thread was originally simply about how closely or not Azure Blue hobby paints matched the Azure Blue standard chip. Fairly harmless I would have thought. But once again it has been turned into a diatribe about whether it matters or not as is almost every single thread on this subject. You think I'm belittling you? Try being referred to as anal, sucking the lifeblood from the hobby or forcing model shops to close. Try some of the other oblique sideswipes and misrepresentations that get bandied about here whenever a serious interest in colour is expressed. What is intended and what happens are not always the same. It's strange that those who intervene to say it's all a waste of time almost always also say they find it interesting to read, enjoyable and don't want to denigrate anyone - then often do just that.

Maybe we should always start these threads with the caveat "I know it doesn't matter in the real world and is a totally pointless exercise . . . " Or maybe, as I'm learning fast, it really is better just not to bother.

Nick

[keefr22]

This thread was originally simply about how closely or not Azure Blue hobby paints matched the Azure Blue standard chip.

And that was the whole point I was trying to make about the differences in the tins of what are purporting to be the same colour from the same manufacturer. What is the point of trying to do that when, for instance, you could decide with absolute certainty that tin A of Azure Blue from model paint manufacturer B completely & without any possible argument matches the Azure Blue standard chip - when I then buy a tin of that paint from that model paint manufacturer & it is nowhere near the same colour as the one you matched. Now I'm not a paint scientist, but surely with the equipment available to paint manufacturers today & with a bit of decent quality control the paints in different batches, from the same manufacturer, should be at least 99.9% the same. Certainly similar enough that they aren't so blatantly different for it to be immediately visible to the naked eye? If a dent & scratch repair guy can pitch up & match the colour of my car almost exactly using a laptop & some gizmo in the back of his van, I refuse to believe it can't be done in a controlled industrial environment!

Fairly harmless I would have thought.

Yes, it is indeed fairly harmless, as is the rest of this hobby. But it is also surely fairly pointless if you then choose to ignore blatantly obvious differences in colour in pots of paint that are supposed to be the same? What point is there in any conclusion that you may have reached about said manufacturers paint matching any colour standard using all your scientific measurements if the next tin of paint you buy from them is nothing like the same colour??

But once again it has been turned into a diatribe about whether it matters or not as is almost every single thread on this subject.

And who is it that turned it into a diatribe? All I did was post & point out something that I had not noticed before I actually put my tins of paint into colour order in one place. Had this thread been about PRU Blue, & had you or any other poster concluded that xtracolors rendition of it matched the required colour standard 100%, then I would have been interested in that finding, as might other readers of that post. Had I or they then used siad colour they may well have thought they were using a 'correct' colour, & might then have been surprised or even disappointed to find that when they built their model using a different tin of that manufacturers PRU blue that it was a significantly different colour. Me, to be honest, I couldn't have cared less, others point of view may differ. I posted what I did, as I said, as an aside that I found interesting. Obviously you don't & that is your prerogative - but it doesn't change the fact that all the discussion in the world as to which hobby paint manufactures colour best matches any standard is pointless if said manufacturers can't keep some kind of consistency in their product.

You think I'm belittling you? Try being referred to as anal, sucking the lifeblood from the hobby or forcing model shops to close. Try some of the other oblique sideswipes and misrepresentations that get bandied about here whenever a serious interest in colour is expressed. What is intended and what happens are not always the same. It's strange that those who intervene to say it's all a waste of time almost always also say they find it interesting to read, enjoyable and don't want to denigrate anyone - then often do just that.

Maybe if you came down off your high horse once in a while you wouldn't feel so persecuted. I did not say that you belittled me, I said that I recalled (if my recollection is inaccurate I will apologise) you posting what to me read as a belittling response to another poster who also suggested that maybe colour standards bear little relevance in the 'real world' of operational aeroplanes - & which again started you off on a diatribe that everyone who posted any such differing opinion was suggesting that you were "anal, sucking the lifeblood from the hobby or forcing model shops to close." At no time, ever, have I suggested you or any one else who contributes to these discussion threads, or indeed those who worry about seams on 1/48th 109's (of which I may be one!) are guilty of what you so frequently claim.

Or maybe, as I'm learning fast, it really is better just not to bother.

You & me both.....

Keef

Edited February 20, 2011 by keefr22

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for that. I understand exactly where you are coming from now. I hadn't realised before that both you and Andrew Jones live in South Wales. What a coincidence!

As to your point about the inconsistency of paint the best I can do is to respectfully point you to the first two paragraphs of my 1318 post today. It seems that what I write and what you read may not be the same thing - my fault of course. Being up on that high horse all day makes it tricky to type sometimes. The inconsistency of modern hobby paints are a problem, although I believe some brands might be better than others, but having a handle on the standard benchmark ought to make it easier to assess them . . .

In future I'll try not irritate you and your chums with any more of my scientific measurements. But in my defence, when I post them, my intention is not to irritate anyone.

Nick

[Chuck1945]

... [my] scientific measurements. But in my defence, when I post them, my intention is not to irritate anyone.

Nick

I find them quite fascinating, especially when the comaprison between two color that appear to be a relatively close match on the monitor turn out to way beyond 2.0 rating that indicates a close match. Keep at it!

[keefr22]

Thanks for that. I understand exactly where you are coming from now. I hadn't realised before that both you and Andrew Jones live in South Wales. What a coincidence!

Read my response to Andrew's post in the Blenheim thread. And I actually have no idea where in South Wales Andrew lives, and yes it is exactly that - a co-incidence. But then you English all think everyone across the border is an in-bred half-wit that spends all their time together down the pub after a hard day's coal mining, eh, what, old boy...

As to your point about the inconsistency of paint the best I can do is to respectfully point you to the first two paragraphs of my 1318 post today. It seems that what I write and what you read may not be the same thing - my fault of course. Being up on that high horse all day makes it tricky to type sometimes. The inconsistency of modern hobby paints are a problem, although I believe some brands might be better than others, but having a handle on the standard benchmark ought to make it easier to assess them . . .

I read what you wrote. I agree to an extent. I don't agree that modern paint manufacturers cannot, if they so choose, maintain a better consistency across their colours. You obviously don't agree with that which is fine by me.

In future I'll try not irritate you and your chums with any more of my scientific measurements. But in my defence, when I post them, my intention is not to irritate anyone.

I'm not irritated in the slightest! It's a hobby. I make plastic aeroplanes & cars to the best of my ability in colours that please my eye. I get quite a lot of time to do so because of my health I'm unable to work anymore - now that irritates me!! What you or anyone else think of my opinions on the colour a plastic aeroplane is painted matters not a jot!! I don't know Andrew Jones as believe it or not South Wales is quite a large area - & my 'chums' have more sense than waste their time arguing over nonsense like this as I have this afternoon. I'm going back to wasting my time in a slightly more valuable way building my B-17.

I bid you Good Night.

Keef

[Nick Millman]

"But then you English all think everyone across the border is an in-bred half-wit that spends all their time together down the pub after a hard day's coal mining, eh, what, old boy..."

Do we? I hadn't realised. Keep digging.

Re paint consistency, I don't disagree. I also think they could maintain better consistency but it requires effort, time and money. In the face of inconsistencies we are back to standard benchmarks being useful.

Make sure you get the colours on that B-17 right - and check under the bed for colour policemen and Englishmen on high horses before going to sleep. Wouldn't want you to have nightmares.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

I find them quite fascinating, especially when the comaprison between two color that appear to be a relatively close match on the monitor turn out to way beyond 2.0 rating that indicates a close match. Keep at it!

Oh, I'll keep at it. Probably not at Britmodeller though (which should please a few folk here)!

[dragonlanceHR]

But seriously displease f.eg. - me.

I think there should be a rule: if not interested in the subject, do not post, move on or something.....

[Andrew Jones]

I think there should be a rule: if not interested in the subject, do not post, move on or something.....

I don't think anyone posts on a forum because they have no interest in a subject, we post because we would like to make a point or disagree with a previous point.

[occa]

There you have the violet tint that most model colors named azure blue completely lack ...

Just wanted to state that Mediterranean skies actually have violet tint when viewed in real ...

Edited February 20, 2011 by occa

[stevehnz]

I'm sorry to see that this thread that I have enjoyed & earlier contributed too has degenerated into another bitching session of peoples perceptions of what it was thought was meant, implied & variously insinuated. If I can agree to disagree with my mother inlaw, surely a bunch of grown men can do likewise cause I'm almost certain that you'll all be more rational than her. So gentlemen, back to your corners please, gloves off & take a breather. It just ain't worth the agro.

Steve.

[keefr22]

But seriously displease f.eg. - me.

I think there should be a rule: if not interested in the subject, do not post, move on or something.....

And who isn't interested? Just because I found the fact that a number of tins of paint purporting to be the same colour that weren't, interesting, & posted that on a thread on a discussion forum that was apparently discussing which manufactures paint closely matches a colour standard because I felt it had a minor bearing on said discussion I should shut up & walk away because its going to upset someone with such a fragile ego? Good job you don't make the rules or there'd be some pretty one sided discussions on here, wouldn't there....

Keef

[keefr22]

I'm sorry to see that this thread that I have enjoyed & earlier contributed too has degenerated into another bitching session of peoples perceptions of what it was thought was meant, implied & variously insinuated. If I can agree to disagree with my mother inlaw, surely a bunch of grown men can do likewise cause I'm almost certain that you'll all be more rational than her. So gentlemen, back to your corners please, gloves off & take a breather. It just ain't worth the agro.

Steve.

And that was exactly what I felt until personal sniping became involved....

Keef

[Nick Millman]

Fragile ego now is it? Keep digging away.

What was that you said about personal sniping?

Nick

[keefr22]

Fragile ego now is it? Keep digging away.

What was that you said about personal sniping?

Nick

[Prop Duster]

AH, and so once again a peaceful tranquility returns to Blue/Azure Blue world.

Wheew

[stevehnz]

AH, and so once again a peaceful tranquility returns to Blue/Azure Blue world.

Wheew

For which we're all truly grateful & long may it remain.

Take care you guys,

Steve.

[Hughgos hobby bench]

Blue Blue Electric Blue..Is the colour of my room where i live..tasty lookin lassies in them days eh!! Boys.

Hugh.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Sky Pirate

[Greg B]

Dear me, it's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. For those that have forgotten this, keep an eye on your inboxes.