Malta Hurricanes

[Nick Millman]

Makes retrospectively applied 'sea scheme' - as per the order for Spits on 07/04/42 - a possibility, though, doesn't it? Spinner black overpainted in red?

Candidate no. 4,356 has just emerged!

I'm not sure whether that is the same as TSS? But if it is the reflectivity contrast was only 2% which means that in certain lighting conditions any camouflage demarcation might be very difficult to discern in photographs. List amended accordingly!

[maltadefender]

I'm not sure whether that is the same as TSS? But if it is the reflectivity contrast was only 2% which means that in certain lighting conditions any camouflage demarcation might be very difficult to discern in photographs. List amended accordingly!

Well I guess that's between you, me and AVM Hugh Pugh, whose grasp of single-engined aircraft was minimal. He repeatedly asked for 'fighters' rather than specifying 'Spitfires' and thus gave plenty of scope for inferior equipment to be dispatched overseas by a self-serving Fighter Command under Sholto Douglas and Leigh-Mallory which had 80 squadrons of Spitfires to call upon and no enemies to fight against. When finally 'Hugh Pugh' was shown the value of adequate fighter protection and the deadline for surrender that he and the Governor had set had passed, he asked for the Spitfires to be painted in 'Sea Scheme'.

On balance, yes, Temperate. As the main mover and shaker in all the later Spit deliveries was 'Jumbo' Gracie he would have been familiar with it from FAA types.

Not as good as roundel blue for camouflage over the Med however!!!

Edited June 12, 2010 by maltadefender

[Steven Eisenman]

Large picture: Is that over spray on the fin flash? Even in negative it looks quite uniform. Bust as Nic said, perhaps position of the sun....

But, depending on the density of the over paint and the position of the sun with light falling nearly parallel to the nose, the old pattern may just be showing through on the nose. But it is good picture to noodle over.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Steven Eisenman

[Troy Smith]

The red area of the fin flash appears to have some overspray on it, arrowed. Also, this area if it's the standard hurricane scheme, (after they stopped the A/B alternation, sadly i can't specify what this standard scheme is off hand) it would have a a camo dividing line about half way up the fin flash.

May well just a respray on the fin, but a simple patch would be easier to brush paint.

The fuselage roundel yellow ring look a little hazy as well, but the serial is very neat.

Looking closer at it, look at the '6' s, that looks like a repaint, as the factory painted '6' is curved, not squared off like this, as is the 'BG'

Steven, thanks for posting a large pic.

I don't know why the idea of this being an in- field repaint is so resisted, we know that Spitfires ended up blue, and this was flown by naval personel, on low level strike mission, from a small island.

Hmm, just to see if you could find out when BG766 was built i googled it and got

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28230 !

Steven, in post # 20 you write

"Dang it, if ya can't see the over spray on the fin flash and fuselage roundel. The leading edge doesn't look like a factory job either.They must have re-appied the serial number."

Also thoughts on underside colour?

Post #10 mentions this

"I look for the for BG766 in the book "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945" and reads:

Hurricane Mk IIB, Loaned FRU Malta, Hal Far/Ta Kali 6.43 - 9.43; 728 Sqn Ta Kali 1.44 - 3.44

The 728 Sqn reformed on 14 August 1943 to become the resident Fleet Requirements Unit in Malta, so it seems reasonable to assume that BG766 operated with the Royal Navy in Malta from June 1943 "

so is BG766 in fact a IIB? it does look like a newer panel where the outer guns would be.

Hope someone can clarify these points.

cheers

T

[Prop Duster]

When I look very closely at the negative and blow it up very large, the numbers are not rounded (as already noted) but squared. Also they appear to be stencils as there seems to be a small line between the vertical stroke and the rest of the "B"; the "6s" also appear to have a horizontal line through the mid point of the O part of the number -on both 6s. I too think the fin flash is oversprayed.

What if anything this will add to the discussion, I have not a clue, but maybe it will help someone confirm a thought.

Good Luck

[Nick Millman]

The red area of the fin flash appears to have some overspray on it, arrowed. Also, this area if it's the standard hurricane scheme, (after they stopped the A/B alternation, sadly i can't specify what this standard scheme is off hand) it would have a a camo dividing line about half way up the fin flash.

May well just a respray on the fin, but a simple patch would be easier to brush paint.

The fuselage roundel yellow ring look a little hazy as well, but the serial is very neat.

Looking closer at it, look at the '6' s, that looks like a repaint, as the factory painted '6' is curved, not squared off like this, as is the 'BG'

Steven, thanks for posting a large pic.

I don't know why the idea of this being an in- field repaint is so resisted, we know that Spitfires ended up blue, and this was flown by naval personel, on low level strike mission, from a small island.

Hmm, just to see if you could find out when BG766 was built i googled it and got

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28230 !

Steven, in post # 20 you write

"Dang it, if ya can't see the over spray on the fin flash and fuselage roundel. The leading edge doesn't look like a factory job either.They must have re-appied the serial number."

Also thoughts on underside colour?

Post #10 mentions this

"I look for the for BG766 in the book "Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939 to 1945" and reads:

Hurricane Mk IIB, Loaned FRU Malta, Hal Far/Ta Kali 6.43 - 9.43; 728 Sqn Ta Kali 1.44 - 3.44

The 728 Sqn reformed on 14 August 1943 to become the resident Fleet Requirements Unit in Malta, so it seems reasonable to assume that BG766 operated with the Royal Navy in Malta from June 1943 "

so is BG766 in fact a IIB? it does look like a newer panel where the outer guns would be.

Hope someone can clarify these points.

cheers

T

Very interesting. But compare the "overspray" (diffusion of digital pixelation?) around the fin flash to the "overspray" around the serial. Compare also diffusion between fin l/e and sky/background. This is a digital image - have you looked at the original print?

The apparent absence of camouflage demarcation on the fin is not necessarily conclusive - see comments above about reflectivity contrast and illumination. But there is actually a change in tone that runs almost vertically down through the fin flash and slightly bulging in front of it.

It is surprising to be able to see the serial so clearly in those conditions. The idea of a complete field re-paint is not resisted but it rests on apparent overspray on the fin and is countered by the visible camo demarcation at the front end and the difficult lighting conditions. Not so much resisted as doubted or perhaps not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps the fin was once painted in a Navy-type identification colour and that was then re-camouflaged? Since we are unlikely to ever know for sure it doesn't stop you interpreting this any way you like.

BG766 was one of 450 Gloster-built Hurricane IIB delivered between November 1941 and March 1942 to Contract B83730/40 and is listed as being sent to the Middle East and to the Admiralty on 1st July 1943.

Nick

[Steven Eisenman]

The problem is that reasonable doubt cuts every which way. The questionable division of camouflage on the nose, but noticeably absent in other areas, where the sun clearly cut s across the nose is no more conclusive of not being a repaint.

Absent the original picture, collectively, we are two women claiming the same baby, but cutting the picture in two really doesn't resolve the issue.

Oh well, ....

[Nick Millman]

The problem is that reasonable doubt cuts every which way. The questionable division of camouflage on the nose, but noticeably absent in other areas, where the sun clearly cut s across the nose is no more conclusive of not being a repaint.

Absent the original picture, collectively, we are two women claiming the same baby, but cutting the picture in two really doesn't resolve the issue.

Oh well, ....

I wouldn't disagree with that but it is Occam's Razor again rather than like for like. It is the anomaly - or in this case the full field re-paint - that requires some rationale over and above a standard scheme that just looks odd because of the lighting. Modellers are always seeking something different - ergo they are sometimes partisan about interpretation. In this case ask "Do I want this aircraft to have been re-painted in roundel blue (or EDSG) and is that why I am interpreting it as such?"

I don't want it to be anything. I just don't know - but as a photograph conclusively showing a full re-paint I think it falls short.

Nick

[maltadefender]

I'm still fretting away about this one! Found a few examples, see what you think:

Temperate Land Scheme

A lot of the delivery photos from 1941-1942 show quite dark colours with Sky fuselage bands and spinners, meaning Temperate I believe...

And this looks like it was retained on many aircraft, the Italians not being known for low-level bombing or strafing attacks while the Luftwaffe was away between the 'Illustrious Blitz' at the end of May 1941 and the start of the second onslaught in December 1941. Tropical Land Scheme would definitely be the one to choose for camouflage on the ground, but in the air would be over the sea, so the darker the better.

That said, here's a Mk.IIc that looks like it's partly repainted to Tropical Land Scheme, and the undersides of the second Hurricane look overpainted - maybe Azure Blue, a much better colour for the Mediterranean skies?

Tropical Land Scheme

The most likely suspects I've found all hark back to the first half of 1941...

This is the aircraft that the Malta Aviation Museum's Hurri is restored to look like... looks like faded Dark Earth rather than Mid-Stone.

Desert Scheme

The camouflage is always less distinct on photos from West Africa, and the only photos I've found to match are of the 229 Squadron aircraft brought over from February to May 1942.

So, assuming that Dark Green/Middle Stone/Azure Blue was applied from December 1940 until the middle of 1941, I think generally the aircraft were kept in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky during the October-November deliveries and the only Desert Scheme aircraft were last-ditch replacements from Egypt. What do you reckon, chaps?

Edited October 13, 2010 by maltadefender

[AWFK10]

...That said, here's a Mk.IIc that looks like it's partly repainted to Tropical Land Scheme, and the undersides of the second Hurricane look overpainted - maybe Azure Blue, a much better colour for the Mediterranean skies?

The photo of the Mk IIc has intrigued me for a long time, since I first saw it in "Air War Over Malta: the Allies" 20 years back. The nose has photographed as very light in colour, actually rather lighter than the Vokes filter - though the port fuel tank and undercarriage door appear lighter still. Between the exhausts and the windscreen, there's a much darker tone - the pattern is fairly close to, but doesn't exactly correspond with the 'A' Scheme camouflage pattern. The fuselage from the windscreen back, and the vertical tail surfaces, appear to be overpainted in a third colour (which has been in place long enough to acquire heavy exhaust staining) - this is perhaps more apparent in the book than in the scanned image - and the proportions of the roundel are non-standard, suggesting it's been reapplied. Two distinct colours can be seen on the wing, appearing to match the darker shade on the nose and the overpainted rear fuselage, respectively. From what little can be seen, the pattern doesn't seem to conform to either the 'A' or the 'B' Scheme. Again, the lighter colour gives some indications of being overpainting, e.g. round the outboard cannon. The spinner looks to be red.

According to the book, this is BN826, which arrived on Malta as part of RAILWAY 1 in June 1941 and was later operated by 185 Sqn with the fuselage letter 'A', obviously not applied in this view. No doubt the aircraft would have been fitted with the long range tanks for its delivery flight but the clear evidence of overpainting coupled with the overlying exhaust stains suggest that it's done a fair amount of flying since its arrival on Malta. It seems unlikely it would have been used as an ordinary day fighter in this configuration, so perhaps it was being used for intruder missions (it has an exhaust glare shield) or shipping protection? My interpretation has been that it was painted in (a non-standard pattern of) Tropical Land Scheme before being partially overpainted, possibly in a shade of blue, to make it less conspicuous - but I'ld be interested to hear other views. Incidentally, the aircraft has been photographed in bright sunlight.

[maltadefender]

The photo of the Mk IIc has intrigued me for a long time, since I first saw it in "Air War Over Malta: the Allies" 20 years back. The nose has photographed as very light in colour, actually rather lighter than the Vokes filter - though the port fuel tank and undercarriage door appear lighter still. Between the exhausts and the windscreen, there's a much darker tone - the pattern is fairly close to, but doesn't exactly correspond with the 'A' Scheme camouflage pattern. The fuselage from the windscreen back, and the vertical tail surfaces, appear to be overpainted in a third colour (which has been in place long enough to acquire heavy exhaust staining) - this is perhaps more apparent in the book than in the scanned image - and the proportions of the roundel are non-standard, suggesting it's been reapplied. Two distinct colours can be seen on the wing, appearing to match the darker shade on the nose and the overpainted rear fuselage, respectively. From what little can be seen, the pattern doesn't seem to conform to either the 'A' or the 'B' Scheme. Again, the lighter colour gives some indications of being overpainting, e.g. round the outboard cannon. The spinner looks to be red.

According to the book, this is BN826, which arrived on Malta as part of RAILWAY 1 in June 1941 and was later operated by 185 Sqn with the fuselage letter 'A', obviously not applied in this view. No doubt the aircraft would have been fitted with the long range tanks for its delivery flight but the clear evidence of overpainting coupled with the overlying exhaust stains suggest that it's done a fair amount of flying since its arrival on Malta. It seems unlikely it would have been used as an ordinary day fighter in this configuration, so perhaps it was being used for intruder missions (it has an exhaust glare shield) or shipping protection? My interpretation has been that it was painted in (a non-standard pattern of) Tropical Land Scheme before being partially overpainted, possibly in a shade of blue, to make it less conspicuous - but I'ld be interested to hear other views. Incidentally, the aircraft has been photographed in bright sunlight.

The spinner does look red on that multi-hued IIc and the 249 IIb. All in all a bit of a muddle!

Putting the long-range tanks back onto the aircraft was apparently AOC Hugh Pughe-Lloyd's idea. Wg.Cdr. A.E. Louks, Malta's Command Engineering Officer, was a dab hand at recycling (such as fitting the Blenheim engine, three-blade prop and extra guns to Gladiators). In Malta: The Hurricane Years, Louks recalls:

"On a number of occasions I had to intervene - on behalf of the pilots - when the AOC made absurd requests of a technical nature without any reference to me. He told one squadron to fit Hurricanes with their discarded overload tanks so that he could have a single aircraft patrolling 120 miles to the West of the island in the hope of intercepting enemy transport planes. I forbade a second use of the tanks, on the grounds that their pumps had been run dry for unknown periods and there was no test rig to check their serviceability."

The tanks were ultimately re-used but only after Louks had left the island. So this could be an attempt to get the intruder missions underway - 126 Squadron did several in July-August 1941 - or after December, when both regular squadrons and the Night Fighter Unit were saddled with these things.

Edited October 12, 2010 by maltadefender

[maltadefender]

Two more contenders for Tropical Land Scheme...

I know P3731 is often depicted in a desert scheme with Sky Blue undersides but the contrast just seems too sharp to me. Meanwhile, another 249 Hurri with a red nose. After receiving IIbs Tom Neil had his aircraft and those of red section repainted with red spinners. There seems to only have been one left by the time 'Laddie' Lucas arrived in early 1942 and he hastily had it repainted black to avoid unwanted attention!

[AWFK10]

Two more contenders for Tropical Land Scheme...

[i know P3731 is often depicted in a desert scheme with Sky Blue undersides but the contrast just seems too sharp to me. Meanwhile, another 249 Hurri with a red nose. After receiving IIbs Tom Neil had his aircraft and those of red section repainted with red spinners. There seems to only have been one left by the time 'Laddie' Lucas arrived in early 1942 and he hastily had it repainted black to avoid unwanted attention!

There are profiles of the aircraft in the top two photos in the Combat Colours Hurricane book - P3731 is, as you say, interpreted as being Dark Earth/Middle Stone/Sky but Z2402 is indeed shown in the Tropical Land Scheme. On the face of it, that makes sense, as the darker tone corresponds to Dark Green in the Temperate Land Scheme camouflage pattern. If you were using that same pattern for a desert scheme finish, you'ld surely just replace the Dark Green with Middle Stone, not apply Dark Earth to the areas that would normally be Dark Green and Middle Stone to the ones that would be Dark Earth. The only thing is, that photo has been taken on orthochromatic film, as the outer ring of the fuselage roundel shows as black. That raises the possibility that the darker areas of the camouflage pattern are actually Middle Stone, and the lighter ones Dark Earth.

[Test Graham]

This is one of the awkward problems with the Desert scheme. The painters will, at least initially, have just used the same pattern as for the Temperate Land Scheme. There the darkest colour is Dark Green. Looking at this pattern the painter may have assumed that as the darkest colour is Dark Earth, then that should go where the dark colour is on the drawing. Those who read the words carefully may come to the opposite opinion. I have not come across any reference to any official statement as to which colour replaced which in the pattern.

I don't believe that Mid Stone ever looks dark on ortho film, but Dark Earth certainly does. Two dark colours on ortho film is almost certainly Temperate Land. A dark and a light could be either a faded Temperate Land or Tropical Land or Desert - if the light colour is around the cockpit then I suspect it is Desert.

[maltadefender]

That's a really good pointer, thank you so much Graham.

Looks like my forthcoming trio of Malta Hurris will be a 1/32 Mk.I in Tropical land, a 1/48 Mk.IIc in Temperate Land and a 1/72 IIb also in Temperate Land.

[gruffy]

I'm still fretting away about this one! Found a few examples, see what you think:Temperate Land SchemeA lot of the delivery photos from 1941-1942 show quite dark colours with Sky fuselage bands and spinners, meaning Temperate I believe...And this looks like it was retained on many aircraft, the Italians not being known for low-level bombing or strafing attacks while the Luftwaffe was away between the 'Illustrious Blitz' at the end of May 1941 and the start of the second onslaught in December 1941. Tropical Land Scheme would definitely be the one to choose for camouflage on the ground, but in the air would be over the sea, so the darker the better.That said, here's a Mk.IIc that looks like it's partly repainted to Tropical Land Scheme, and the undersides of the second Hurricane look overpainted - maybe Azure Blue, a much better colour for the Mediterranean skies?Tropical Land SchemeThe most likely suspects I've found all hark back to the first half of 1941...This is the aircraft that the Malta Aviation Museum's Hurri is restored to look like... looks like faded Dark Earth rather than Mid-Stone.Desert SchemeThe camouflage is always less distinct on photos from West Africa, and the only photos I've found to match are of the 229 Squadron aircraft brought over from February to May 1942.So, assuming that Dark Green/Middle Stone/Azure Blue was applied from December 1940 until the middle of 1941, I think generally the aircraft were kept in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky during the October-November deliveries and the only Desert Scheme aircraft were last-ditch replacements from Egypt. What do you reckon, chaps?

Hi , what is the book?

[maltadefender]

Hi - they're from Malta: the Hurricane Years 1940-41 and Malta: the Spitfire Year 1942. Cracking books.

[gruffy]

Thanks Maltadefender!

[Jonny]

Yes, I know ...

 

awakening an 'old' thread.  BUT the latest (October 2017) edition of Flypast has on its cover a very nice painting of HurricNe V7107 which, according to the caption, "despatches a Messerschmitt Bf 109 over MLta".  

 

It really is a nice painting.  I see the Hurricane depicted has no squadron or individual aircraft code  and it. seems to be painted in a  rather worn and thin overall bluey-grey paint except for the fin and most of the rudder which >appear< to be  midstone.

 

Any ideas, anyone?

 

Just curious ... and I do happen to have a new Aurfix Hurricane tropical  kit for which I'm hoping to find.a different finish!

 

Jonny

 

PS I'm 99% sure that V7107 was a Mk 1 Hurricane.  I've also seen in another thread that TonyOt believes this aeroplane was converted to PR standard - that the aerial was sawn off and the tropical filter removed.  This doesn't quite match the Flypast painting and caption  - the Hurricane has a complete aerial and tropical filter and the caption states it gas just shot down a Bf109!  Since Flypast does not indicate who the artist is or provide any evidence regarding the  'victory' over the 109 I'm inclined to go with TonyOt's opinion.

 

 

[Smithy]

It sounds like one of 69 Sqn's in theatre painted aircraft which had a unique blue mix for the majority of the airframe, however I believe their tails were in fact dark earth and dark green. Quite an eye-catching and distinctive scheme if it's the same one I'm thinking of.

 

EDIT: Just checked and V7107 was indeed a 69 Sqn airframe flying out of Luqa in spring/summer 1941.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Smithy

[tonyot]

20 hours ago, Smithy said:

It sounds like one of 69 Sqn's in theatre painted aircraft which had a unique blue mix for the majority of the airframe, however I believe their tails were in fact dark earth and dark green. Quite an eye-catching and distinctive scheme if it's the same one I'm thinking of.

 

EDIT: Just checked and V7107 was indeed a 69 Sqn airframe flying out of Luqa in spring/summer 1941.

The famous photo of this aircraft was taken while it was being converted,.......the aircraft is partly in shadow and partly in bright sunshine and the fin and rudder show up really well,...... so it has been assumed by some that it was repainted light blue for the PR role judging by the lighter colour of the areas in direct sunlight, I even fell for it myself but having researched the aircraft for my book `No Places For Beginners'  I spoke to people involved with the conversion and was even given a mix of the colour applied,.... which resulted in a dark bosun blue,....similar to the colour used on PR Hurricanes in Egypt. Here is a model that I made of this PR Hurri;

 

As for fighter Hurri`s,..... from my own research most arrived in Malta wearing Dark Earth and Dark Green uppers,....those which had been tropicalised usually  had light (Sky Bkue) blue undersides but those which were not could have retained Sky. Many,....especially the earlier deliveries had black and white undersides and at some point in 1941 a light colour was applied to the undersides locally which covered the roundels. Some of the first carrier delivered Mk.I`s wore the `experimental' desert scheme upon delivery by applying Mid Stone over the Dark Green of the TLS,......with black and white undersides......this includes the well known P3731/J.

One ex 249 Sqn groundcrew `old sweat', when asked about which colour was applied to cover the Mid Stone on the first Spitfire`s told me that they used the same Blue Grey (EDSG from Kalafrana?) that they were already applying to the Hurricane`s!! Here is my interpretaion of this on a model;

 

All the best,

                Tony

[Smithy]

Both of those are really lovely!

 

Malta certainly seems to have brought about some very interesting and novel colour schemes.

[Jonny]

Thanks,  Smithy and Tony ...

 

what confused me with the Flypast cover pic is that the 'blue grey' I mentioned seems to be very thin and there's a hint if an underlying colour,  probably the un-repainted fin rudder ...  not to mention the A-type fuselage roundel and broad red/white/blue fin flash!

 

As Smithy says ... interesting and novel colour schemes from Malta!  I rather doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer to the 'blue' used on the Mk V Spitfires or indeed  all  the Hurricanes.

 

Tony ...  could you please tell me who published your 'No Place For Beginners' book?

 

Thanks again,

 

Jonny

 

 

 

 

[tonyot]

16 hours ago, Jonny said:

Thanks,  Smithy and Tony ...

 

what confused me with the Flypast cover pic is that the 'blue grey' I mentioned seems to be very thin and there's a hint if an underlying colour,  probably the un-repainted fin rudder ...  not to mention the A-type fuselage roundel and broad red/white/blue fin flash!

 

As Smithy says ... interesting and novel colour schemes from Malta!  I rather doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer to the 'blue' used on the Mk V Spitfires or indeed  all  the Hurricanes.

 

Tony ...  could you please tell me who published your 'No Place For Beginners' book?

 

Thanks again,

 

Jonny

Hiya Jonny,

               My book was published by Dalrmply & Verdun; 

http://www.dvpublishing.co.uk/

 

Cheers

          Tony

[Jonny]

Thanks lots, Tony.

 

Jonny