Iain Ogilvie Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Hi folks, Firstly - I'm aware of the great build threads (with fix observations) that have been posted here on BM - the some excellent thoughts and input - you there Bill? What I'd like to get together here is a definitive list of errors - with dimensional/photographic proof. So - looking out for theories/physical measurements/photographic evidence... Reason - I *really* love the Lightning and I doubt we'll ever get another in 1:32. And IMHO there is a lot that's good - we've got injection moulded 1:32 Lightnings for one! Sooo - am looking at making up some 'correction' patterns for these kits - possibly... What I have on the list at present is: Fuselage plug (5 mm to fuselage length) - This is something I will be double checking with a real airframe. Nose ring Intake/nose gear bay Replacement fuselage tanks (all versions) Fuselage cable ducts (as required per Mk) Rear fuselage cross section Possible narrow chord on fin (F2A/F6) Canopy - I have a gut feeling looking at a few completed models that the canopy is somehow wrong - gut feeling is far too wide - again - to be confirmed Wheels/Refuelling probe available elsewhere and main gear can be shortened. Anything missing from list? Any further observations? Iain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguarfan Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Hi Iain, I too would very interested in what you find as I am currently considering buy a 1/32 Trumpy Lightning. Look forward to seeing your findings and fixes. cheers Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crobinsonh Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Hi, The fuselage spine does not taper correctly. The tailplanes are too large and the wrong shape. The tail is not the right shape for the F1a. The cannon troughs are the wrong shape and in the wrong location. The cockpit is wrong for all marks - in particular the F1a. The cockpit sills are too low. The canopy is very wrong in shape as is the windscreen. The canopy opening is too wide look at any shot of a real lightning and then look at the opening on the Trumpeter model - this affects the canopy shape which is certainly why it is to wide. Wings do not have the right kinks - not to bad on the F1a but really bad on the F6. Wings should have a kink on the top section above the wheel well - hard to describe but quite prominent and missing from both the F1a and F6. Tailplane actuator fairings are completely wrong - too thin and not the right shape. This is the build of a Trumpy F1a that I have been struggling with for a year - times of progress and then frustration sets in that they could have gotten it this wrong. http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.ph...=22920&st=0 Basically scale up an Airfix lighting and it will match the Echelon plan and kit - both modelled from the real 1:1 drawings. My advice is to use either/both as your guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 18, 2010 Author Share Posted May 18, 2010 (edited) Brilliant - thanks! Just read your excellent build thread over on LSP - helps hugely! I have the Echelon kit - and knew Frank and how much of a stickler he was for accuracy - but I'm not going to use the Echelon Drawings at this stage - I've already discovered that the F6 tail fin in the Echelon kit doesn't match the Echelon kit drawing in chord. I want to try and corroborate each fault with actual dimensions/photos if possible - rather than other kits/drawings. That said - I am aware that the Airfix 1:48 kit seems to be pretty accurate! I'd love to do a line-up of Lightnings - so looking at casting some resin parts - and maybe some photo-etch. Iain Edited May 18, 2010 by 32SIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 19, 2010 Author Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) OK - here's the current list for possible resin corrections: Fuselage plug (5 mm to fuselage length) Nose ring Replacement cannon troughs - upper Replacement cannon troughs - lower Replacement cannon troughs - lower tank gun-pack Intake/nose gear bay Replacement fuselage tank - early Replacement fuselage tank - F2A/F6 Fuselage cable ducts (as required per Mk) Flight Refuelling Probe Rear fuselage cross section Fin - early Fin - square top Tailplane Tailplane actuators Cockpit sill correction (incl. front section of spine) - to suit: Narrower Canopy - vacform Cockpit - photo-etch - per mark Wing 'kinks' am aware of - but I think that's down to assembly tweaks - rather than resin replacement. Anyone know if there are any manufacturers drawings out there for dimensions? *If* I did these would anyone be interested in copies? Also - don't suppose anyone has a part started Trumpy Lightning, or two, they've started and given up on that they'd consider selling? Need something I can cut up for pattern making purposes and would rather not break up new kits... Iain Edited May 19, 2010 by 32SIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 OK - here's the current list for possible resin corrections: Fuselage plug (5 mm to fuselage length) Nose ring Replacement cannon troughs - upper Replacement cannon troughs - lower Replacement cannon troughs - lower tank gun-pack Intake/nose gear bay Replacement fuselage tank - early Replacement fuselage tank - F2A/F6 Fuselage cable ducts (as required per Mk) Flight Refuelling Probe Rear fuselage cross section Fin - early Fin - square top Tailplane Tailplane actuators Cockpit sill correction (incl. front section of spine) - to suit: Narrower Canopy - vacform Cockpit - photo-etch - per mark Wing 'kinks' am aware of - but I think that's down to assembly tweaks - rather than resin replacement. Anyone know if there are any manufacturers drawings out there for dimensions? *If* I did these would anyone be interested in copies? Also - don't suppose anyone has a part started Trumpy Lightning, or two, they've started and given up on that they'd consider selling? Need something I can cut up for pattern making purposes and would rather not break up new kits... Iain Yeah all of them!!! AND the Ferry Tanks - for the F6 - should have a rounded end piece rather than the cut-outs. The belly cannon bulges are too big - I filled mine with Milliput and sanded down from outside. IF I ever find that minging modelling mojo thats meandering at the moment - I'll get around to finishing the beast! I've invested too much time into it so far!! Incidentally - have you seen John Wolstenholme's Echelon F6 on ARC!!! Wow!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 19, 2010 Author Share Posted May 19, 2010 Bill - if you manage to find your MoJo can you ask it if it's seen mine on it's travels?? This whole Lightning thing is an effort to tempt mine home again! Iain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 *If* I did these would anyone be interested in copies? Well, I have the Trumpeter 1/32 Lightning F.1A/F.3 and would certainly be interested in replacement parts suitable for that airframe. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Hi You could certainly count me in for copies. I have both Trumpy kits so it would be a set x 2 ! Hope you are able to do it ! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 Thanks for replies all - will see how we go - will post progress here... Bill - good call om the tanks - I'll add to the list (didn't particularly bother me as I don't like the look of the F6 with tanks - has always looked *wrong* to me Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 I just wish I had bought more of the Echelon kits when I had the money. When you add the cost of resin additions/corrections for the already overpriced Trumpeter kit it will cost a fortune. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avro683 Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Heritage Aviation already do a refuelling probe. It's around £8 i think. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 (edited) Andy - you're not wrong - I have one Echelon kit and wish I'd bought more - but the early marks are far nicer on the eye IMHO - hence my plan to beat the Trumpy kits into submission. My thoughts on making masters and casting is because I'd like to do a run of Lightnings of all marks - and rather than correcting each individually - it seems to make good sense to go the casting route. Tony - thanks - hadn't spotted that! However - as purpose is to make batch of parts for own use - I may just make a mould of the Trumpy F6 part - casting over a brass rod core. Iain Edited May 20, 2010 by 32SIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I forgot...the WINGS!!! The F6/F2a (and F1-3 "straight wing" for that matter!) had a very complicated shaped leading edge. So much so that the former had a very pronounced kink with extended under camber on the outer section. Trumpeter have missed this totally. The Wing should have some anhedral as well, built OOB it has a rather fetching dihedral that would look nice on Spitfire!!! Wheel bays are suspect! Wheel doors are poor!!! I'll add some more as I remember them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 22, 2010 Author Share Posted May 22, 2010 (edited) Hiya Bill, Aware of the wings Bill - but not sure what to do about that - bar blind force and ignorance in assembly! New resin wings seems a bit extreme - but still looking at this and doing some head scratching... Gear doors - yes - some shape issues perhaps - and the large 'wheel cover' door lacks depth. I'll add to the list. Project given some further impetus after chatting to George Black at the club last night - he was telling me about the U2 intercepts they did - over 70,000 feet - and no pressure suits! He's giving us a talk in the autumn - would like to have a couple of Lightnings on display. Need to see if I can get him to bring some photo's down in the next few weeks. Looking to see if I can get up to one, or two, of the preserved Lightning airframes soon for a good measuring up session. This is frustrating - when you open the boxes the trumpy Lightnings look great - then on further investigation it goes to pot. Such a pity - if only they'd done a little more research before cutting the moulds Iain Edited May 22, 2010 by 32SIG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gishuk Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 i have no info to offer, but id be very interested in a correction set. love the lightning but the ammount of things wrong in this kit put me off it a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted May 23, 2010 Share Posted May 23, 2010 Hiya Bill,Aware of the wings Bill - but not sure what to do about that - bar blind force and ignorance in assembly! New resin wings seems a bit extreme - but still looking at this and doing some head scratching... Gear doors - yes - some shape issues perhaps - and the large 'wheel cover' door lacks depth. I'll add to the list. Project given some further impetus after chatting to George Black at the club last night - he was telling me about the U2 intercepts they did - over 70,000 feet - and no pressure suits! He's giving us a talk in the autumn - would like to have a couple of Lightnings on display. Need to see if I can get him to bring some photo's down in the next few weeks. Looking to see if I can get up to one, or two, of the preserved Lightning airframes soon for a good measuring up session. This is frustrating - when you open the boxes the trumpy Lightnings look great - then on further investigation it goes to pot. Such a pity - if only they'd done a little more research before cutting the moulds Iain You'd really need a whole new kit Iain.....so you have to draw the line somewhere! I've managed to bash my wings ionto a reasonable shape - though Trumpy's plastic is so soft that the wing snapped when I tried to put in the kink!! I think I may try to re-start my Lightning this week. I had planned on a all metal finish, but now fancy a camouflaged F6 in joint 5/11 Sqn 1979 (as I can't make my mind up which one to do) ....OR XR754/"BC" of 11 Sqn in MSG/BG and LACG - I think that may have been flown by IAN Black at some stage..... Hmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 Go Bill GO! You know you want to... Agreed - to do it properly - you're prolly looking at a complete kit. I'm thinking alon lines of just correcting the obvious flaws at this stage. I saw your thread regarding the wings - I'm wndering whether some sheet brass could be bent at suitable angles/points and sandwiched into a suitably thinned down leabetweeen suitable thinned down wing leading edges? Epoxied/superglued together and leading edge restored to shape? Hmmm... Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Been looking at parts/photos/Echelon parts tonight - add fuselage spine to the list But the square top fin is looking better all the time - certainly comparing with Echelon parts - Chord almost bang on when aligned at base - but maybe a little tall on the Trumpy parts? More research... Fuselage plug (5 mm to fuselage length) Nose ring Replacement cannon troughs - upper Replacement cannon troughs - lower Replacement cannon troughs - lower tank gun-pack Intake/nose gear bay Replacement fuselage tank - early Fin for above Replacement fuselage tank - F2A/F6 Fins for above Fuselage cable ducts (as required per Mk) Flight Refuelling Probe Rear fuselage cross section Fin - early ?? Fin - square top ?? Tailplane - kit parts can be re-shaped Tailplane actuators Cockpit sill correction (incl. front section of spine) - to suit: Narrower Canopy - vacform New fuselage spine Overwing Tanks Cockpit - photo-etch - per mark Have identified fuselage cut lines for rear end and plug. Have front fuselage parts available (thanks Tigger!) that I can use to sort the cockpit opening/sill correction. Also - anyone else noticed the F1A/F3 wings are a lot thicker? Me thinks that needs fixing too! Iain Edited June 2, 2010 by 32SIG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shar2 Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Having bought an F2/F6 quite cheaply, i'd certainly be interested in some if not all correction parts. Or I might just sell the thing if it's really that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieholmes Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Iain, As for getting close to the real thing talk to the guys who run the pair at Bruntingthorpe, i have found them very helpfull in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Hi Dave, Watch this space. Am going to do some parts for my own use as I'd love to do a number of Lightnings and would rather reshape once and cast a few off than do each one individually. *If* the results are good enough I may market them - we'll see... And 'cheaply' is the only way to go on these kits I'm afraid - the list price makes me cringe. If it had been a lot better out of the box then it would be a different matter! If you decide to get rid - let me know - am still looking for further copies of these kits. Iain Iain,As for getting close to the real thing talk to the guys who run the pair at Bruntingthorpe, i have found them very helpfull in the past. Cheers Ollie - may well give that a go. Trying to find time to get up top Coventry at present... Also need a good F1A to look at/measure - any pointers anyone? Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieholmes Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) I believe 320PSI resides on this forum and hes involved with the pair at Bruntingthorpe. If you cant find him give me a shout and i will pass your email onto him. As for the F1A there isnt much choice going by here: http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/li...g/survivors.php I would have thoughe XM12 at Torpe Camp would be easiest to get acsess to or the Lakes Lightnings XM172, which again if you want i can put you in contact with the owner of. Edited June 2, 2010 by ollieholmes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 Thanks for link Ollie - didn't realise there's an F1 at Duxford... Good excuse for a trip over Anyone know if Duxford is likely to allow some measuring/detailed photography? It's funny - but I'm *actually* enjoying all this Lightning stuff at present - fascinating aeroplane and I'm excited my the modelling possibilities - now that I've picked myself up off the floor and am formulating a plan. Of course - plans *can* change! Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollieholmes Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Duxford is pot luck i find. Sometimes ive been able to get close and take photos and other times not. From memory the barriers around the Lightning are pretty close to it so you should be able to get most angles of her easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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