Red arrows mid air collision

[John B (Sc)]

I agree with you Haggis. It is well past time to disband the Red Arrows, sadly. More urgent things to do with the money.

Good grief, let's not lower the tone with that moustachioed character !

John B

Edited March 25, 2010 by John B (Sc)

[Fmk.6john]

Well all I can say is that the time to impact from the initial collision was incredibly short, the pilot's outstanding reactions have clearly saved his life.

Regards,

JB.

[Dave T]

For those intersted, the pilots have been named

MOD press release

Gotta love that MOD quote..... "His aircraft was severely damaged on impact with the runway"

Looked more terminal than serious to me.

[Max Headroom]

and one incident where a Hawk ran into a yacht mast. The engine must have been breathing water at the time ...

I saw that Brighton,1980 if memory serves

That would be XX262 in 1980....................

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/PROJECT...s/Johnson_S.htm

as to Red Arrow losses generally, I came across this site (it's where the above piccy came from)

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/AEROBAT.../RED_ARROWS.htm

MH

[FalkeEins]

I agree with you Haggis. It is well past time to disband the Red Arrows, sadly.

..and there I was just about to say that his was a (sad and) lonely voice...can you imagine the French disbanding the 'patrouille de France' ..no I thought not !

'disbanding' the Reds is surely too 'political' for this board though...

Edited March 26, 2010 by FalkeEins

[John Laidlaw]

Disband the Red Arrows? Sorry, that's complete tosh, either on the basis of money (there are many other places the money could come from), or - God forbid - on the basis of safety (the people that fly the aircraft know what they're doing and accept the risks).

Let's get a sense of perspective back here folks. This is what they do, they're bloody good at it, and doing what is known here in the States as armchair quarterbacking is redundant. Unless, of course, you ultimately really do want a safe, sterile and pointless existence?

Let the pilots make the choice. You know, those at the pointy end.

No sane person wants to see another hurt, but no sane person wants to control what another does. Do they? Disband the Red Arrows? Good grief...

[Max Headroom]

Disbanding the Arrows (or BBMF for that matter) is a non starter. Can you imagine the headlines in the Daily Mail and the Telegraph?

There is a theory in economics whereby you make a high profile but not necessarily economically effective 'cut', as in "look we're so committed to cuttting and making savings that we have no choice but to axe this". The idea is that the proposed cut is so repugnant that it makes other options look more acceptable. Of course the fact that those wielding the axe knew this all along is pure coincidence.....................

It's not the Arrows or BBMF you need to look at but somewhere else. Typhoon, CVA, or whatever maybe?

MH

[turnerdad]

Hope that's

I agree with you Haggis. It is well past time to disband the Red Arrows, sadly. More urgent things to do with the money.

Good grief, let's not lower the tone with that moustachioed character !

John B

man-vegetables. A minority view you and the rest of your minority are obviously entitled to voice. Hey, lets cut all funding to the arts too, that way we could really start incising the human condition, then we could spend all our money on moats, walls and grey paint. But hopefully, the rest of us who occasionally look beyond our own capabilities (which most definitely includes me) may catch a glimpse of what we humans, when allowed to go and create, are capable of.

[xffw45343tg]

If economics were the only factor, Concorde would never have been built. Aside from recruiting pilots, the Red Arrows also inspire engineers, designers, aerodynamicists, software engineers - the list goes on and on.

I'd rather my tax were spent on Red Arrows than, say, residential parking zones. In fact, I rather hope they get upgraded to Hawk 100s...

Kirk

PS/ Hats off to both pilots. Skilled escape, skilled emergency landing. If either of them thought at my speed they's be dead. Great role models.

[ghb180658]

[quote name='SPerx' date='Mar 23 2010, 08:45 PM' post=

Or stop pratting around fighting illegal wars - and I totally accept that the illegality is not the servicemens' fault - which do nothing for our security here at home.

Illegal? In what way is the UN authorised operation by NATO/ISAF illegal? I am sure the 44 nations currently contributing to ISAF (soon to be 46) would like to know; ISAF are also operating at the invitation of the Afghan government.

Debating the legality of ousting Saddam is a fair call if now somewhat academic but there is nothing illegal about the ISAF operation. You might not agree with it but that is rather different.

Back towards the topic, the Reds are considered pretty much every year as a savings measure but is one that is a Ministerial call. Let's be clear in the coming Defence Review everything will be scrutinised and have to make it's case. I don't think people realise just how much is likely to go based on the money that will be available (whatever your political persuasion).

That said this forum isn't the place for deep political argument IMHO!

[pigsty]

According to the Sunday Express the Red Arrows are going to have to use Tucanos instead - which apparently are "old-fashioned propeller planes". Part of the reason is that all the Hawk T.Mk.2s are needed in Afghanistan! A prize for anyone who can winkle out the kernel of fact in this story.

Incidentally, does the Hawk have the widest time gap between the Mark 1 and the Mark 2?

[F111Fan]

According to the Sunday Express the Red Arrows are going to have to use Tucanos instead - which apparently are "old-fashioned propeller planes". Part of the reason is that all the Hawk T.Mk.2s are needed in Afghanistan! A prize for anyone who can winkle out the kernel of fact in this story.

Incidentally, does the Hawk have the widest time gap between the Mark 1 and the Mark 2?

I deliver papers and scoffed at this. Because the RAF do need jet trainers in the 'Stan, right? LOL. Bunch of idiotic people just trying to stir up controversy. Sorry for the rant!

[little-cars]

Or they could draft in the Blades in to cover !

[pigsty]

Or they could draft in the Blades in to cover !

Not sure watching Sheffield United play would have quite the same effect ...

[shushin]

Never never never, should they stop the Reds they bring so much enjoyment for many. They are a part of this great country we live in. As a person who works at the home of the Hawk its a great jet long may they fly.

[Dave Fleming]

My 2p. Disband them and spend the money on the front line. Seeing they have all but turned off recruitment at the mo they don't need them. The MoD is bankrupt and we need to channel the money where it's needed i.e. here at the sharp end. I'm out here sweating my balls off trying to do my best with limited resources with no flex, it's just not good enough. I wish I could I could tell you the details of why but it makes my blood boil and trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

I know most of the team and one of my mates is the current CO so I have a personal interest in the accident. I'm glad they are all OK. But, in these times unfortunately some painful decisions need to be made.

From most, this could quickly be dismissed, but knowing who and what you are, it perhaps needs a little more thought (even though as FAA you have an inbuilt dislike of RAF-PR!!)

How much do the RAFAT cost each year? And how quickly would that get swallowed up in other things before it gets to the front-line? Even suspending the team for a season isn't going to make the sort of saving that will have a positive effect at your sharp end. If you could say 'cut the AT and give all the money to the SH force in sandy places' it might help, but how likely is that?

[Mike]

Can we put a lid on the discussion of whether there should be Red Arrows or not please? It's going to get ugly, and I'd rather not close this thread, as I want to know what happened and how the pilot is. Thanks

[turnerdad]

The pilot who ejected, Mike Ling is OK but now subject to a statutory 3 month grounding apparently, which obviously puts his place on the team into doubt, as he needs to be working up his Syncro 2, the other pilot involved in the accident, and I believe steps are being taken to ensure that the Reds have a 2010 season, which without a Synchro lead would be impossible. Probably a recent ex lead may step in, either for the season or until Mike Ling is fit. We have an ex synchro lead as a member here, he should be able to clarify though it is a sensitive matter.

[Kes]

Disband the Red Arrows? Unthinkable! it's a rare opportunity to flag wave in GB these days, I thought the point of the RA's was to sell the Hawk abroad? on that basis they've brought a fair few quid to the economy you'd think?

The thought of using Tucano's for the Reds brings to mind an interesting 'What if?' build? is the Airfix Tucano currently available?

. . . Kes

[Plastic Bonsai]

I am intrigued by this accident - the synchro pairs normally cross at a safe distance from one another, using slightly staggered heights to give the impression they are at the same height from the ground observer perspective. The surviving Hawk has fin and damage to a tailplane suggesting a strike occured with the others wing. It is possible that lighting conditions or the background caused one pilot to briefly loose sight of the other aircraft resulting in them coming too close. They have been doing these manoeuvres for many years now and I would have though that they had the routine worked out very carefully to avoid this happening. Thankfully both pilots have survived so we should soon know what happened.

I think that the DT's one true fact was that the T2 is required in Afghanistan. The Hawk 100s' have a reasonable payload range, are easy to maintain and have pretty good unguided weapon delivery accuracy including a gun. Whilst it doesn't have the breadth of stores that an A10 can bring I think it would prove very useful in Close Air Support work.

[andy wood]

I know it has been said by others (not neccessarily here) and I would have to agree. I would rather the Reds disband than re-equip with Tucanos. It just would not be the same and I would rather remember them how they were, at the top of their game.

[pigsty]

I think that the DT's one true fact was that the T2 is required in Afghanistan. The Hawk 100s' have a reasonable payload range, are easy to maintain and have pretty good unguided weapon delivery accuracy including a gun. Whilst it doesn't have the breadth of stores that an A10 can bring I think it would prove very useful in Close Air Support work.

Not sure that's quite the same as the RAF planning to use it in Afghanistan, though.