A Few Mustang Mk.i Questions

[gingerbob]

Great work, Colin. I just ask that if you're going to do something similar for the XP-51B, you do it BEFORE I start hacking into the kits!

bob

[Tony Whittingham]

Hi all,

I have not read the whole thread in detail, so please forgive me if this has been answered:

Did any Allison Mustangs acquire Malcolm hoods in RAF service? All of the pix I have seen show the factory canopy.

[ColFord]

Here I go again.............

Stevehnz - I focus on 1/48th scale so can't comment directly on the MPM kit. However, the aircraft taken up by No.225 Squadron were US P-51/F-6A specification aircraft, so were to the US specification, not the RAF specification and standard of modification. So if MPM have based their moulding and detail on the US specification, they should be a good starting point. A quick Google around has thrown up a few reviews and they seem reasonably favourable. The kit is a bit fiddly, takes a bit more care than a normal mainstream kit, but seems to come together to create a nice looking model. Seems the moulding has been shared around the MPM stable of brands and has also popped up in Condor and Special Hobby branding with various markings.

Tony - ahhhhh, Malcolm Hoods on RAF Alison Mustangs. I think I have answered this in a previous thread here at Britmodeller and also a couple of times over at Hyperscale. Basically. Mustang Mk.I - NO. Mustang Mk.IA - evidence a very limited number of aircraft, a handful in late 1944 into early 1945. A Mk.IA airframe was used for the design and acceptance trials for the modification. For the Mk.IA not a widespread modification and where AM and Hobbycraft get their Malcolm Hooded 'N' FD465 with D-Day stripes with No.168 Squadron is a joke. Firstly No.168 Squadron did not have Mustang Mk.IA by D-Day, they had reverted back to Mk.Is in January 1944 like the other Squadrons in 34 (Recce) Wing. And the RAF records for FD465 indicate it was not with 168 or operational. Don't get me started on FD472 'M' with D-Day stripes, as it too left 168 in January 1944 and was with 268 from then until SOC in late 1944. FD472 may be slightly unique in having scored a credited kill against a FW-190, without firing its guns in the engagement. Photos of Mk.IAs still serving early 1945, still generally show the standard hoods. Mustang Mk.IIs started out with the standard hood, but by late 1944 were being either fitted with the Malcolm Hood before issue to No.268 Sqdn (No.II(AC) Sqdn was relinquishing them by then as they converted to Spitfire FR.XIVEs) or were modified when they next went in for major servicing or repairs. So by early 1945, the majority were fitted with the Malcolm Hood. There was the odd one that had not been in for major servicing still with the old hood by March-April 1945, but they were the exception, not the rule.

Again, good references in the four volumes of 2TAF by Shores and Thomas (you will find my name listed in the acknowledgements - I shared).

Gingerbob - the XP-51B is not on my radar at present, still too busy focussing on the 'pure' Allison Mustangs in RAF service, altho I have collected a few bits and pieces on the R-R conversion with the Merlin for a future build project. That one's well down the build list.

And so endeth today's lesson in Allison Mustangs.

[stevehnz]

Thanks Col for the info. I couldn't find a review of the MPM specifically but the SH one seems to review OK so I might try one anyways, I just need to confirm it comes with the 225 squadron markings, from what I can see the fuselage roundels are a bit of a strange size. I've enjoyed the info you've imparted & will look forward to your R-R Mustang X build.

Steve.

[Terry McGrady]

Thanks Col for the info. I couldn't find a review of the MPM specifically but the SH one seems to review OK so I might try one anyways, I just need to confirm it comes with the 225 squadron markings, from what I can see the fuselage roundels are a bit of a strange size. I've enjoyed the info you've imparted & will look forward to your R-R Mustang X build.

Steve.

Hi Steve ,

I've come across photos of 3 of the 5 Airframes used in conversions by RR as well as one of the NA conversions in various books I have . If you wish I can scan the photo's in for you . Just pm me with your e-mail addy

Cheers

Terry

[Prop Duster]

To All

Well let me add my thanks, Colin, for the insightful information and photos - I am amazed and inspired.

As I am sure you are aware, the process of producing aircraft was, and is currently, a process of continual change. These changes can occur during the manufacturing on a daily, if not hourly bases. The progression or reason for a change can be caused by many factors (ie from a shop assembly need (a part just wont fit like the engineers thought), a revamp of a component by a subcontractor that was not accounted for on the shop drawings, of the shop drawings not being updated in a timely manner, plus a myriad of others.

This sort of change activity goes on, even in todays highly computerized aircraft manufacturing environment. With the stakes as high as those in the early stages of WWII, the pressures would be very great to get aircraft built and updated as needed, to take comply with new aeronautical data or specifications and/or requirements of the customer.

HOWEVER, as we all continue to create a scale model of our own, with the accuracy and detail that will satisfy us, we have only the data available to us (such as you have kindly shared with us) to make our judgments on. This leads us to be as accurate as we decide we need to be and to share knowledge, facts, understanding and even occasionally a rant or two. All the while resisting the temptation to "broadcast" assumptions, guesses, unsubstantiated bits.

Sorry for my long windiness but a great big thank you, to all that have made this thread one of my all time learning sources for the Mk1 aircraft.

Steve

[stevehnz]

but a great big thank you, to all that have made this thread one of my all time learning sources for the Mk1 aircraft.

Steve

And so say I, many thanks.

Steve

[FalkeEins]

yes thanks a lot of nice info here...FWIW Squadron Signal do an "Allison-engined Mustangs" title in their Walkaround series which seems to cover all the points above nicely and in photographs..

[Terry McGrady]

yes thanks a lot of nice info here...FWIW Squadron Signal do an "Allison-engined Mustangs" title in their Walkaround series which seems to cover all the points above nicely and in photographs..

Hi Falk

I would agree to a point , but the emphasis of the publication seems to be on the US use and a significant amount of info on the A36.

There is need of a book on the RAF use of the Allison engined A/C .

There is some info in Robert Jackson's " Mustang the Operational Record"

Cheers

Terry

[ColFord]

Hi Falke,

I'd have to agree with Terry on the Squadron Allison Engined Mustang Walk Around. It is largely based around US material and specification aircraft. In particular two surviving airframes in the US get the majority of the detail photos and one of those is partly restored, whilst the other has had a number of 'restorations' to keep it semi-airworthy that has resulted in a less than 100% authentic airframe and detail.

Of the photographs in that walk around, 7 are general photos of RAF Mustang Mk.I or Mk.IA aircraft, nothing too exciting as most have been published elsewhere, 135 are of US specification or post-War restored aircraft. Therefore a great resource for someone doing a US spec aircraft, but very slim pickings for RAF specific material.

There are a number of books out there that give some more significant detail on the RAF's use of the early Allison engined Mustangs, but a book just focussing on the RAF's use of the Mustang, the RAF specific experience, modifications and RAF specific detail is noticeably absent. Unfortunately even in a number of the published works to date that do give coverage to the RAF Mustangs, it is largely very superficial and often contains the same old original myths and mis-captioning of photos that seems to keep re-perpetuating itself. There is research and writing being undertaken to produce what should become the best source for information on RAF Mustangs to be available in print. Unfortunately like most good things it is not available, right here, right now, but the wait for those interested in this subject will be quite worth it. It is probably some time off yet because those researching and writing it want to get it RIGHT and that requires research, cross checking and then writing it all in a way that is understandable and acceptable to both the lay person and the armchair expert.

In the meantime, threads like this one can answer some of the questions that get raised.

On another tack, over at the P51SIG there is a very interesting thread running on the design evolution of the NAA Merlin engined P-51 prototypes, including some good photographs from various sources.

[Mentalguru]

There is research and writing being undertaken to produce what should become the best source for information on RAF Mustangs to be available in print. Unfortunately like most good things it is not available, right here, right now, but the wait for those interested in this subject will be quite worth it. It is probably some time off yet because those researching and writing it want to get it RIGHT and that requires research, cross checking and then writing it all in a way that is understandable and acceptable to both the lay person and the armchair expert.

QUOTE

BRING IT ON!!

Edited February 20, 2010 by Mentalguru

[phat trev]

Sorry, but IF you want to be accurate- you can't really do your project this way.

If you go and get the Academy kit- you are 90% of the way there- believe me.

Mentalguru, cheers for advising me to go for the Academy version as I have managed to get one and it is really good.

now then what to make D-Day Stang Ia or Stang I with Yellow wing markings ...

oh, whats the colour of the interior on an early British Mustang? humbrol aycrlic 226 or xtracrylicx XA1010? (these are the only greens I own so I hope one is correct!)

am I correct in guessing the wheel wells would be chromate green primer ..or similar?

edit, just found this on hyperscale

'The Allison Mustangs had the wheel wells painted aluminum. The spar which formed the rear of the well was Yellow Zinc Chromate. Gear doors were aluminum paint, as were the gear struts. Wheel were natural metal. The wheel doors were always in the up posistion ,unless the gear was cycling. The cockpit was Dull Dark Green, and the remainder of the interior of the a/c, not the crew area would have been yellow zinc chromate. Do not forget to add the seat armor(Accurate left it out).

( Mustang IIs were also painted like this)'

Edited March 16, 2010 by phat trev

[ColFord]

Here I go again............

Cockpit interior sidewalls and floor - yellow green (US interior green) - basically from firewall to a station in the fuselage that is usually represented by the last of the visible ribs. Note, there were a number of plywood 'walls' in the rear fuselage, first one was behind where the camera, batteries and radios were fitted behind the cockpit, so you could not look directly back through the fuselage. There was another plywood 'wall' forward of the tail wheel well.

Instrument panel - instrument black (a semi-matt black)

Cockpit antiglare - Instrument panel shroud/coaming - flat bronze green

Seat Pilot's - bronze green

On the RAF Mustang Mk.I and Mk.IA aircraft, to the best of information to hand from research to date, the interior of the wheel wells, inner face of the main inner undercarriage doors and inner face of undercarriage doors supporting the undercarriage legs and the visible face of the wing spar at the back of the wheel bay all received one overall coat of aluminiumised lacquer over what other anti corrosion treatments had been applied (eg.zinc chromate primer). Think about this, spray gun put up into wheel bay and an overall coat of the aluminium lacquer applied - no masking! Keeping in mind that the rear 'wall' of the undercarriage bay as represented in most the mainstream Mustang kits to date have been incorrect - hence why modellers have to do their own fix with some plasticard or utilise resin replacements from aftermarket suppliers. And keeping in mind that the main inner gear doors of the Allison engined Mustangs remained up and locked after engine shut down, there is not all that much visible of the undercarriage bay if the doors are in the correct close position. The Allison Mustangs had a different door latching mechanism, which utilised a mechanical interlock that kept the inner main gear doors securely in place when not cycling through the extension or retraction cycle.

Where a number of other posters of information get confused is in referring to later amended technical orders or documentation that incorporates changes that were introduced from the P-51B/C onwards and trying to imply retrospectively that it was the same for the earlier versions. In looking at original 1942 and 1943 documentation, there are differences between the finish specifications and materials callouts compared to the later versions of documentation covering the same marks of Mustangs.

The armour plate fitted behind the pilot's seat on the RAF Mustang Mk.I or Mk.IA was painted either a flat bronze green or RAF Dark Green, some Mk.Is having the dull yellow spot visible on the front face of the armour plate at a height roughly equivalent to the pilot's head/neck - above the top edge of the seat back. Fitted with RAF Sutton harness.

F.24 camera would be in a RAF blue-grey colour, very similar to colour used on RAF vehicles, also a mid grey similar to Ocean Grey and a very dark grey almost black also seen in some examples. Camera control box on cockpit floor also in similar RAF blue-grey colour or black-grey. See: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/cameras/raf_ww2_cameras.html

Wireless set type TR.19, mid to dark blue-gray bodies, light grey face plates with black controls/dials, black background placards, white lettering/captions.

There you go.

[gingerbob]

And keeping in mind that the main inner gear doors of the Allison engined Mustangs remained up and locked after engine shut down, there is not all that much visible of the undercarriage bay if the doors are in the correct close position. The Allison Mustangs had a different door latching mechanism, which utilised a mechanical interlock that kept the inner main gear doors securely in place when not cycling through the extension or retraction cycle.

Not trying to start an argument, but I do want to point out that it was possible to open the inner gear doors for maintenance access and to confound future modelers. What I bet you would NEVER see (never say...) is the doors "bleeding down" somewhere in between, as is common in Merlin Mustang photos. But I agree that "normally" the inner doors would be shut.

Incidentally, I was just reading (again) that they had troubles with those inner doors opening in flight on the Mustang X, and had to add additional up-locks!

bob

Edited March 17, 2010 by gingerbob

[ColFord]

Yes, but.........

No, but.........

MustangService by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Any aircraft when being serviced and maintained can appear in less than normal configuration. There are lots of things opened, unlatched, exposed when you need to service an aircraft.

The problem in this case largely arises because:

1. Model companies don't known the detail differences between Allison engined and Merlin engined Mustangs;

2. A number of museums containing surviving Allison engined Mustangs have unlatched the inner main gear doors intentionally for display purposes, so when walk around reference photos get taken and published they show the doors down, and that must be right;

3. A couple of the remaining airworthy Allison engined Mustangs are 'hybrids' utilising undercarriage components of Merlin engined Mustangs in their restorations - then see part two of point 2 above; and

4. The undercarriage door bleed down on Merlin engined Mustangs is another matter of discussion, but since the Merlin engined versions predominate, the Allison engined versions are assumed and presumed by many to display the same attributes - which they don't.

Edited July 8, 2017 by ColFord

[phat trev]

Thanks for the interior details, a feast of information.

Reading thorugh http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000...le_mustang3.htm on the IPMS Stockholm site.

I am interested in the markings shown, paricually in the accuacy of the colour plates. Some have obviously been copied from photos that are easily found on the Net such as 2Sqn XV-E and 613Sqn SY-L

A few others 26Sqn RM_T XC-F too name two I have certailnly never seen photos of?

[ColFord]

Trev,

The material you linked to is now over 10 years old and more recent research and information, additional photos and the like that has come to hand has overtaken them. I think that probably Camouflage & Markings - RAF Fighter Command 1936-1945 by Goulding & Jones by Ducimus was probably a key resource in their creation. The colour rendition is an approximation at best, probably a reflection of the illustrator packages of the time. Again, because the profiles were based on the best knowledge and photos available at that time, some incorrect assumptions are there.

But as an example, the Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II aircraft were painted in the same standardised scheme, so the variations in the schemes, demarcations between the Mk.IAs and Mk.IIs represented is inaccurate. Having original period photos with formations of aircraft and lineups of aircraft and including some of the subject aircraft, plus exchange of information with other dedicated researchers working of primary reference material, allows me to make that kind of statement.

Certainly the "same old, same old" subjects keep getting done in profiles, based on what photos have been available, and what has gone before. I keep seeing the same errors from one profile artist's work being repeated in another, or one researcher's errors being taken and repeated and then used in profiles which end up being less than accurate. Hard to break the cycle.

The profiles done by RJC in the October 2008 issue of Model Airplane International if you can get hold of it are a good starting point. Probably more up to date and reflecting more recent research and findings. There are some errors that crept into a couple of the profiles, purely the result of publishing deadlines and quick turnaround, but they are closer to the mark than those you referenced. Some really good profiles of a RCAF Squadron Mustang Mk.I were in the new Aviaeology book by Carl Vincent with the profiles by Terry Higgins being very well researched and rendered. It was particularly good as it showed the same airframe at three different stages of its service all based on good reference photos and research. I look forward to seeing more from that source in the future.

And I've seen some of the profiles being developed for "the book" and accuracy is certainly the keyword there.

[Mentalguru]

Yellow Green cockpit interior?

Do you have an approximate FS number matched to original artefacts for that please Colin..?

[ColFord]

US Interior Green FS34151 is a good starting place. Like most things, there was some variation in batches and application, some slightly more yellow and lighter, some slightly more darker and greener - again working from old colour images, factory finishing and surfacing specification documentation, and the few surviving extant pieces, all laid against the recollections of those who flew and maintained them. In instances I've heard the colour described as "an apple green" to "a darkish leaf green", but certainly no attempt to simulate the RAF interior green-grey shade. The colour used was pretty much the NAA interior cockpit colour they were using for other types coming off their production line for the same timeframe.

I just have to find it, but I do have a colour photo of some original NAA cockpit interior green as used on a Harvard from the same timeframe, and also a colour photo detail section of the cockpit of a P-51/Mustang Mk.IA taken at NAA in late 1942 that show the colour fairly well.

[gingerbob]

Yes, but.........

No, but.........

Any aircraft when being serviced and maintained can appear in less than normal configuration. There are lots of things opened, unlatched, exposed when you need to service an aircraft.

To me there's a slight distinction between something like (if I understand it right) the Allison gear door, where a "built in" release can be pulled to let the door open, and, say, a cowling panel where you have to open a bunch of fasteners. But nevertheless, as I said before I did not intend to argue and agree that you do usually see them closed.

But see, this photo proves that they can be down!

...I suppose a case COULD be made for it being in need of some maintenance... (from Ethell, Mustang Documentary History)

bob

[ColFord]

MainGearFairingDoor by Colin Ford, on Flickr

MainGearDoorFairingLatch by Colin Ford, on Flickr

MainGearFairingAdjustlarge by Colin Ford, on Flickr

More than a built in release, a procedure.

And based on that latest photo, I am now trying to track down when they added the VTOL option with the downwards thrust to the P-51 production line...........

Edited July 10, 2017 by ColFord
Re-linking/Re-adding photos

[Prop Duster]

But see, this photo proves that they can be down!

...I suppose a case COULD be made for it being in need of some maintenance... (from Ethell, Mustang Documentary History)

bob

Perhaps a bit of... " if you break it, they will fall" eh??

boy I crack me up

OK I'll be good... for now

ps Thanks Colin, great info

[ColFord]

And to keep Gingerbob happy,

613_0_AG602 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

Yes, the main gear fairing doors are down, but..............

With thanks to JM of the P51SIG for providing the photo which is of a N.A. Mustang Mk.I AG 602 of No.613 Squadron RAF.

Edited July 11, 2017 by ColFord
Re-add photo

[gingerbob]

And to keep Gingerbob happy,

I'm happy! Nifty shot, which I haven't seen before.

bob

[phat trev]

Hi all,

Still plodding on with my 1/72 Mustang I (aka academy P51A) there will be pics...its just one of those builds where other things seem to take president..

A Few Questions to keep the build flowing if I may?

?? Where are the empty cartridge cutes for the nose guns found on the airframe?

?? Would anyone have any scale plans or clear photos to show the engine bearers? I am using an Aries 1/72 V12 Allison to be exposed on the model (prehaps keeping a few panels on to highlight the differences between this marque and later varients (ie. the scoop on top of the nose?)

thanks.

PT