deecee Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Just returned from Modelworld where I entered my Gloster Gauntlet MkII in class 5 – 1/72 scale, detailed. The decals I used were Model Alliance and as you can see I chose 74sq markings. I was quite pleased with the result, particularly the Tiger markings! Now I was browsing Hannants’ new arrivals last night and I came across their Xtradecal sheet X72106 for 74sq. I noticed on p3 of the instruction sheet some markings for a Gauntlet. Alongside is the usual information and although it is very small to read I was very interested in what they are saying. I wont type it all out here you can probably manage to read it, but in effect they are suggesting that Gauntlets of 74sq never carried the upper wing Tiger markings. The references I have for the Gauntlet show the colour profiles with these upper wing markings in place - Mushroom Special, Wings of Silver, - although SAMI(sept.2003) and Profile no.10 don't show the upper wing for 74sq. Are Extradecal correct and have these other publications been perpetuating something that was only assumed? I should be interested to hear any comments on this. Perhaps someone out there has photos to prove their existence. Maybe I'm going to have to remove those 'Tiger stripes'.......aaagh!! deecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Leave 'em on deecee whatever is correct or not it seems to me a shame to spoil your model (which is georgous btw) Extradecal may be wrong anway so you'd end up having to put them back on again would hang fire if i were you just my tuppence worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 JMaybe I'm going to have to remove those 'Tiger stripes'.......aaagh!! Noooooooooooooooo! It's an excellent model - leave it as it is! If you really want to have one without upper wing stripes, then build another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avro683 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Don't forget that the Xtradecal sheets are airframe specific so it is very possible that both they and you are correct. That's a great build by the way and Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phat trev Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 WOW, Wonderfull Gauntlet. Just what did you do to achieve the 'metal' effect cowl and front end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith in the uk Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Have to aggree with everyone else , thats a nice looking model and i wouldnt bother removing the wing stripes , which kit is it by the way ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecee Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks for the generous comments guys, much appreciated. The kit is AZmodel, but with quite a bit of refinement, particularly to the flying surfaces - thinned down and rescribed, and control surfaces detached and reset at a slight angle. Fully detailed interior from scratch except for the instrument panel which is PE provided in the kit. Note that in the photo the seat is not finished, only placed inside for test fitting. The engine and cowling are resin and really nice, particularly the cowling with its cylinder fairings. The metal panels have been covered with 'Bare-Metal' which I like using although it is fiddly, but gives a great effect. Fabric is mainly sprayed Alclad aluminium over Mr Surfacer 1000 (light grey). The rigging is EZ Line which is an American product. It is very fine and stretches to extremely fine! It is very forgiving because once fixed in place (cyano) if you touch it whilst handling the model it just 'gives' and then returns to its tension. You never get slack wires. Thanks again deecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 .The references I have for the Gauntlet show the colour profiles with these upper wing markings in place - Mushroom Special, Wings of Silver, - although SAMI(sept.2003) and Profile no.10 don't show the upper wing for 74sq. The profile doesn't show upper wings for any of them, so I wouldn't count that against them - I'll see if I can find my copy of On Silver Wings and see what it says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hi deecee that is a sweet bit of scratching Am about to start my second attempt at scratching the cockpit for a Hurricane. Was fairly pleased with my first effort but was hoping for quality more like yours! how did you go about it please? what did you use for the framing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The rigging is EZ Line which is an American product. It is very fine and stretches to extremely fine! It is very forgiving because once fixed in place (cyano) if you touch it whilst handling the model it just 'gives' and then returns to its tension. You never get slack wires. Hi Where did you get the EZ line from? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old VG 33 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hello I saw your Gauntlet at telford and I was very interested because I am building the same kit. I am going to use the sames decals as it is the subject of the front page painting on the book "On silver wings" by Alec Lumdsen and Owen Thetford. Actually I have never come accross a picture showing the stripes. Congratulations. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecee Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Where did you get the EZ line from? I originally bought some from a stand at a model railway show, Scaleforum I believe, held at Leatherhead each year. It's used in the model railroad fraternity for telegraph wires. Follow this link: Link When I tried to order some last year from the website they would only supply it in minimum of 10 reels, or was it 5? can't remember. I know I couldn't just buy one reel. (One reel is 100 feet.) Why not send them an email and see what you can get. It comes in two thicknesses - Fine or Heavy. I have one reel of each in charcoal, but the other colours sound interesting. I used the fine on the Gauntlet and just did the inboard lifting wires in the heavy. I liked showing that difference in gauge, but you can't see it from the photo. The heavy line would be great for larger scales - the polymer thread has a flat section and would replicate raf wires really well. You can even detect it in the fine line so you have to be careful not to twist it. Thanks for the interest deecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPNGROATS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 deecee: Great looking Gauntlet..! Nice detailing.... Cheers, ggc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Actually I have never come accross a picture showing the stripes. Absence of proof is never proof of absence!!!! Edited November 12, 2009 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecee Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 how did you go about it please? what did you use for the framing? Hi Walrus I used Mushroom's Bulldog & Gauntlet book for reference which includes some useful cockpit photos showing the framework required. The main framework is 0.5mm plastic rod - a basic cuboid with extra support rods here and there. Had to use trial and error to get a snug fit in the fuselage halves. Trying to keep everything square isn't easy! The wooden top frame is 5 thou card strip laid on top of the rod. The tread plates are scored lead foil and radio box is lead foil folded around a square former, although this is hardly seen behind the seat and bulkhead. The trim wheel I took from some brass sheet, and gun breaches and levers are all just made up from tiny bits of plastic. Instrument panel is supplied, as is the control column. It's not finished in the photo, but the resin seat I covered in Bare-Metal and added a Sutton Harness with one strap hanging over the open port cockpit door! deecee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Thank you it is looking very nice Although doubtless much is obscured now it is inserted am certain it is very effective. An elegant build of an attractive aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I cannot recall seeing a photo of the upper wing markings in place so maybe this is a case of one reference getting it wrong and all others following it (it happens frequently). What is interesting is that xtradecal do quote the 74 Squadron Association as their main source. This does not preclude the markings being in place sometime but renders it highly unlikely. I would leave your model as it is - it looks the part and who's to say its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Gauntlet upper wing markings. I have had several conversations with David Howley regarding the 74 Sqn markings. Photographs of the period are pretty scarce and the ones that David has located via the Sqn association do not appear to have them painted on (though authorised to carry them). 74 only had Gauntlets for less than 2 years (37-39). Part of this time would be the intensive working up period and rudimentary camoflage was introduced in Sept 1938. Another problem was applying the top wing markings. This is no easy matter to apply a complicated marking to a fully rigged aeroplane top wing (unlike the fuselage) and would probably be done on a major servicing when the wing cellule was removed. The simpler "bar" markings were much easier to do in situ. However as Dave Fleming said, no evidence is not proof. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecee Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Hi John I was interested to read your comments. It never occurred to me how upper wing markings would be applied to bi-planes! Perhaps I just envisaged someone scrabbling across the top wing with a can of paint and a brush and being careful not to put a foot through the canvas! Seriously though, could this be done without having the wing dismantled? And if so, was some sort of construction of ladders/planks/scaffolding used? I’d be interested to know. You suggest a ‘simple’ bar could be done in situ. How? Not so sure that I agree that 74sq markings were ‘complicated’ as I think you imply. Surely it’s not that much different to draw out a bar of triangles than a bar consisting of squares as 56sq for example had – (and I note they only had Gauntlets for just over a year.) You are only dividing the series of rectangles with a diagonal line instead of a horizontal one, if you see what I mean. I was looking through my treasured ‘Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft’ by John Rawlings (first pub. 1969 - 40 yrs old!) and was really surprised to find that 22 squadrons were equipped with Gauntlets. There is a very nice photo of a Gauntlet II of 74sq taken at Usworth in 1937. I would like to reproduce it here, but I fear I would be restricted. No upper wing can be seen unfortunately, but the side panels are very clear. So I decided to check on what actually is marked. To simplify it I only counted the ‘black’ triangles – 2 in front and 12 behind the roundel in the photograph. Model Alliance gives 2 in front and only 11 behind. Oh dear! Mushroom Special shows 3 in front and 13 behind; Profile no.10 and On Silver Wings have 3 and 12. Only SAMI is correct with 2 and 12. As for the top wing bar (if their ever was one), well ….. Mushroom Special – 38 black triangles On Silver Wings (Keith Woodcock painting) – 28 Model Alliance – 56 Quite a difference!! You really do need photographic evidence if you want to get your model right, but then if there is none – who’s to argue? Cheers deecee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSTON Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 BEAUTIFUL Gauntlet.. I agree with the others....Leave it as it is...PERFECT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Hi JohnI was interested to read your comments. It never occurred to me how upper wing markings would be applied to bi-planes! Perhaps I just envisaged someone scrabbling across the top wing with a can of paint and a brush and being careful not to put a foot through the canvas! Seriously though, could this be done without having the wing dismantled? And if so, was some sort of construction of ladders/planks/scaffolding used? I’d be interested to know. You suggest a ‘simple’ bar could be done in situ. How? Not so sure that I agree that 74sq markings were ‘complicated’ as I think you imply. Surely it’s not that much different to draw out a bar of triangles than a bar consisting of squares as 56sq for example had – (and I note they only had Gauntlets for just over a year.) You are only dividing the series of rectangles with a diagonal line instead of a horizontal one, if you see what I mean. I was looking through my treasured ‘Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft’ by John Rawlings (first pub. 1969 - 40 yrs old!) and was really surprised to find that 22 squadrons were equipped with Gauntlets. There is a very nice photo of a Gauntlet II of 74sq taken at Usworth in 1937. I would like to reproduce it here, but I fear I would be restricted. No upper wing can be seen unfortunately, but the side panels are very clear. So I decided to check on what actually is marked. To simplify it I only counted the ‘black’ triangles – 2 in front and 12 behind the roundel in the photograph. Model Alliance gives 2 in front and only 11 behind. Oh dear! Mushroom Special shows 3 in front and 13 behind; Profile no.10 and On Silver Wings have 3 and 12. Only SAMI is correct with 2 and 12. As for the top wing bar (if their ever was one), well ….. Mushroom Special – 38 black triangles On Silver Wings (Keith Woodcock painting) – 28 Model Alliance – 56 Quite a difference!! You really do need photographic evidence if you want to get your model right, but then if there is none – who’s to argue? Cheers deecee Hi As far as painting the aircraft the main markings would have been factory applied and any further markings would be done with a brush and serials sign written. Only larger biplanes normally used a scaffold to erect them. Small biplanes and especially two bay types such as the Gauntlet would have their wings "boxed" by rigging them with the leading edges on pads on the ground. They were then turned and lifted onto trestles by a crew with some on step ladders to do the top spar root bolts. the whole cellule was then trued up using clinometers. Small single bay types were done the same way, often with jury struts at the roots. I do have pics somewhere but at the moment I can't scan as the big computer has thrown it's dummy out. So painting of markings would probably be done when the a/c was in bits. I believe the markings would be laid out in chalk lines applied by the signwriters string technique. So come to think on it any top wing markings wouldn't be easy. Cheers John Edited November 16, 2009 by John Aero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifer54 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Leave the upper wing stripes on. In the immortal words of Al Superczynski (who I only knew through rec.models.scale) "Build what you want, the way you want it, and above all have fun!" Although someone also parodied this as "Build what you want, the way you want it......and the critics will flame you every time!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Leave the upper wing stripes on. In the immortal words ofAl Superczynski (who I only knew through rec.models.scale) "Build what you want, the way you want it, and above all have fun!" Good old Al. A man of immense knowledge and skill, but always with the time to provide help and advice to others. I miss him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p-26luvr Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Being American I donot know all about British interwar squadron markings so I cannot argue on their placement, but your stunning model is very much an inspiration for me when I get to building my Gauntlet kit. I particularly like the use of foil for the nose area. A really SUPER piece of modeling. THANKS for posting a beautiful photo. Carl T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith in the uk Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well just to add my 50p worth Camouflage & Markings No 5 Gladiator , Gauntlet , Fury , Demon states :- No 74 sqn based at Hornchurch Symbolic of a tigers stripes the marking on either side of the fuselarge roundel consisted of narrow vertical triangles formed into a bar , and a similar bar WAS PAINTED ACROSS THE UPPER WING . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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