Russian Royalty in highest air to air combat of WW2

[JohnT]

just saw this and thought what an amazing story.

http://spitfiresite.com/reference/camoufla...e-galitzine.htm

Wonderful material for a film.

Anyone know any more about this guy?

sorry if this has been covered before

JohnT

Edited September 30, 2009 by JohnT

[dylan the rabbit]

just saw this and thought what an amazing story.

http://spitfiresite.com/reference/camoufla...e-galitzine.htm

Wonderful material for a film.

Anyone know any more about this guy?

sorry if this has been covered before

JohnT

Or a build! Cool story.

[Steven Eisenman]

That profile has me scratching my head. The aircraft was originally in Dark Green, Ocean Grey and Medium Sea Grey. If the full fin flash and C under-wing roundels were retained, why did they convert the C-1 fuselage roundel to a B, which was used on PR aircraft and the Mk. VII in Grey with a red and blue flash..

The Osprey Late mark Spitfire Aces has a profile of Galitzine's aircraft in all blue with no under-wing roundels.It also has a picture of BF273 in its Day Fighter markings and paint.

[perry]

Great story, thanks for sharing!

Quite a bit of info on him but can;'t seem to find any photos. Agree with Nick, the Spit would make a nice project!

[AnonymousA667]

Alfred Price's 'Spitfire, a Documentary History' has a chapter devoted to this incident, with photo of BF273 prior to it's modification and a copy of Galitzine's combat report. Pretty much the same piece also appears in 'Spitfire at War Vol 3' and the dust jacket picture is a painting of the combat. The artist portrays Galitzine's aircraft more or less identically to the profile linked above, except the serial is shown as BF273. The airframe was apparently originally serialled 'BF' in error, but later corrected.

peebeep

[ben_m]

Interesting that the pilot described the colour as similar to Oxford blue, but the profile artist has used a colour very similar to Cambridge blue. Oxford blue is much darker, with a bit of green in it.

[Tango India Mike]

Interesting that the pilot described the colour as similar to Oxford blue, but the profile artist has used a colour very similar to Cambridge blue. Oxford blue is much darker, with a bit of green in it.

Yes, and I can remember a Humbrol tin of 'Oxford Blue' that I had in the early 1970s. It was definitely a dark blue and bears little relation to the profile colour, other than simply being 'blue'. Certainly a great modelling subject, anyway, and one that would complement the 72 Sqn Mk IX that Galatzine landed in Southern France during Operation Dragoon in August, 1944...one of the subjects of the Frog decal sheet.

As for a film...well, I'd be happy to see one, but I'm hoping that, here in Australia, a film might be made about Len Waters....a man who was NOT a member of the aristocracy and who certainly did NOT receive 'the best of educations', but whose story is probably even more inspiring than that of this Russian prince.

Now ask me who Len Waters was!

[nubrawarriors]

I actually met this fellow in 1981. I was working for a company called Flightspares and he was our rep in South America. He died in 2003. If you Google him you can find his Times obituary.

Wish I had known about his past at the time of our meeting.

Distinguished well turned out sort!!

Regards Phil

[Miggers]

I've read about this combat before.

Firing the single operational cannon at that rarefied altitude caused the Spit to stall.

I'm sure I've seen the aircraft in question billed as an HF.VI though.

Either way,it makes for an interesting model of a pretty special fighter pilot's Spit.

Go on then Tim:

"Who is Len Walters?"

Mark

[Tango India Mike]

G'day Mark!

Yes, I wouldn't want to detract from Prince Emanuel Galatzine's story...it's certainly an interesting one, and although he obviously faced hardships along the way, his prospects were certainly not harmed by being born with a silver spoon in his mouth, so to speak.

Len Waters? He is, to this day, the only EVER full-blood Australian Aboriginal to achieve his dream of becoming a fighter pilot, against all the odds, during the Second World War. He served with distinction as a Kittyhawk pilot with 78 Sqn, RAAF, but died in obscurity in 1993. Only then did the Australian public become aware of him through his story being 'discovered' by the media...but what a fantastic role model he could have been (and still could be) to the young aboriginal men who constitute the majority of our prison population today, simply because nobody has shown them what they can achieve if they believe in themselves. A far more worthy topic for a film, I think.

I don't, however, wish to hi-jack this thread, so...please do continue, gentlemen!

Good to hear from you Mark. All the best,

Tim.

[Nick Millman]

" . . the pilot described the colour as similar to Oxford blue, but the profile artist has used a colour very similar to Cambridge blue. Oxford blue is much darker, with a bit of green in it."

Oxford Blue is a deep blue for which the University uses Pantone 282 as the "official" colour. In commercial use as a colour description it is shown across a diverse range of mid-toned blues including some distinctly greyish blues.

Cambridge Blue is usually shown as a lighter blue with a very definite green caste but is an interesting one because its exact appearance is the subject of a dispute between the Cambridge University Boat Club and the Rugby Club which each use different versions. Cambridge University per se identify the "official" colour as Pantone 557. In commercial use it is often shown as a pure light sky blue without a greenish hue.

I don't think the profile shows a "typical" presentation of either colour.

The pilot may have been describing something like AM Deep Sky, similar to Oxford Blue, which would be logical. If I was going to model this aircraft I would use Deep Sky. Geoff Thomas gives Munsell 5 PB 3/8 and Methuen 20 E 7 for Deep Sky which seems a bit light when compared to the actual AM chip but his approximate FS 595b equivalent 15050 seems much darker. There is a rather high DE2000 difference calculation of 17.2 where 2.0 or less is a close match!

In MAM Vol 8 Issue 7 (July 2009) the profile accompanying Paul Lucas' article on Spit IX camo identifies PRU Blue in the caption but the colour depicted does not look like PRU Blue. The aircraft was "thought to have been" converted to high altitude fighter role at Cranfield around August 1942 and "thought to have been" painted PRU Blue. Paul quotes an Air Min instruction that high altitude fighters would be in one of three schemes - standard DFS, PRU blue with PRU roundels (answering Steven's query), or upper MSG and lower PRU Blue with PRU roundels. AMO A.1377 of 24 Dec 42 mentioned high altitude fighters as a specific aircraft type but just stated that "Pending the adoption of a standard scheme the various camouflages, colourings and markings used are promulgated to the defences by postagram or signal." Somewhere I think I have more about Deep Sky and high altitude fighter schemes but I will need to try and find it.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Nick Millman

[gingerbob]

Cambridge Blue is usually shown as a lighter blue with a very definite green caste but is an interesting one because its exact appearance is the subject of a dispute between the Cambridge University Boat Club and the Rugby Club which each use different versions. Cambridge University per se identify the "official" colour as Pantone 557. In commercial use it is often shown as a pure light sky blue without a greenish hue.

In MAM Vol 8 Issue 7 (July 2009) the profile accompanying Paul Lucas' article on Spit IX camo identifies PRU Blue in the caption but the colour depicted does not look like PRU Blue. The aircraft was "thought to have been" converted to high altitude fighter role at Cranfield around August 1942 and "thought to have been" painted PRU Blue. Paul quotes an Air Min instruction that high altitude fighters would be in one of three schemes - standard DFS, PRU blue with PRU roundels (answering Steven's query), or upper MSG and lower PRU Blue with PRU roundels. AMO A.1377 of 24 Dec 42 mentioned high altitude fighters as a specific aircraft type but just stated that "Pending the adoption of a standard scheme the various camouflages, colourings and markings used are promulgated to the defences by postagram or signal." Somewhere I think I have more about Deep Sky and high altitude fighter schemes but I will need to try and find it.

Oh, I just couldn't resist... Nick, looking at your color sample of an alleged Cambridge blue, and the verbal description, I couldn't help but chuckle at the controversy. Good to see the angst-ridden 'Sky' issue taken to academia (well, academia sporting, anyway...)

As for DEEP Sky, I too have a passing reference to it being [intended to be?] the underside color for high altitude aircraft- not necessarily fighters specifically- and I've been left scratching my head as to how PRU Blue got the job instead. Can anyone shed some light on that?

bob

p.s. As for the 'thought to have been', the IX in question was assigned to the "Northolt Special Flight", which was specializing in high altitude fighter efforts, so I'm not sure why it is couched in such guarded terms...

p.p.s. Didn't I see somewhere (Hyperscale?) the same basic question and a comment about "oops, said Oxford when I should have said Cambridge"? That would neatly explain the difference between artists' renderings and a verbal description of the color.

[Nick Millman]

Hi Bob

No angst on my part! I just know what I know. Some others don't know the difference between colour science and colour opinion. Then there is paint.

Deep Sky is also relevant to RAF Fortress ops but the existence of a Du Pont Deep Sky Blue (71-065), Deep Sky (71-052) and PRU Blue (71-066) is mysterious. Paul Lucas commented that he thinks he knows the reason so hopefully we may see something about this in MAM eventually.

In the meantime all great fun.

Regards

Nick

[drdave]

Theres also a story of a Soviet pilot , Maraseev I think? Who was shot down over the arctic and crawled for miles with 2 smashed legs thru the forest. Like Bader he flew as a bilateral amputee and became an ace.

[Dave Fleming]

Interesting that the pilot described the colour as similar to Oxford blue, but the profile artist has used a colour very similar to Cambridge blue.

If yo9u check out the forum on the Spitfire site, there is a correction posted about that one.

Also worth pointing out that the aircraft had the Rolls Royce conversion cowling (with the 'bumps') - you can just see them in the pic in Spitfire at War Vol 3.

As to wing bumps - my suspicion would be the broad chord ones.

[gingerbob]

No angst on my part! I just know what I know. Some others don't know the difference between colour science and colour opinion. Then there is paint.

Deep Sky is also relevant to RAF Fortress ops but the existence of a Du Pont Deep Sky Blue (71-065), Deep Sky (71-052) and PRU Blue (71-066) is mysterious. Paul Lucas commented that he thinks he knows the reason so hopefully we may see something about this in MAM eventually.

In the meantime all great fun.

Regards

Nick

Hi Nick,

Glad you saw the humor. I was referencing the tome on 'Sky' on FlyPast forum, which spilled over to Hyperscale, which begat... and I read them all with interest! Actually, I may be totally off base, but my perception of Sky is that it is more like a greenish-tinted off-white than the muddy-green color that model paints and decals always seem to render it as. Maybe I am practicing 'scale color' without recognizing it. (all color philosophy, not even firm enough to be color opinion...)

As for Deep Sky, I was all ready to fire off a letter to Mr Lucas after reading his comments in MAM, when I re-read and discovered that he was talking specifically of Deep Sky Blue (I think), while my reply was going to be all about Deep Sky. And my knowledge did relate to Fortresses. I'm looking forward to more probing of the mystery.

And for the other gent, yes, I later came to suspect that it was on the Spitfire Site that I saw the Oxford/Cambridge comment. Thanks!

bob

[Nick Millman]

Dave: "If yo9u check out the forum on the Spitfire site, there is a correction posted about that one."

Couldn't find it. Could only find a short thread where the artist re-affirmed the choice of Azure as "Cambridge blue" and provided a Google images link to reference the colour (!). So, re-iterating:-

"In commercial use it is often shown as a pure light sky blue without a greenish hue."

If the description is correct ("Cambridge blue") and the person making it knew his colours then the aircraft was probably much closer to Sky than the Azure shown in the profile. Once again I think this is an example of what someone wants the colour to be rather than an objective exploration. How the artist can claim that the depicted colour is "on target" with just that single verbal description is mind boggling. It is just an interpretation and no more valid than anyone else's - but being a profile it will have an influence on the historical record from now on.

Bob: "my perception of Sky is that it is more like a greenish-tinted off-white"

Using the original pigments it is a very pale blue-green, like the colour of a duck egg (!), but the blue caste is not always perceived by the eye. Blue-greens are difficult, especially if very pale, as perceptively one of those colours (blue or green) tend to dominate. There was no actual green pigment, only a particularly intense blue pigment and the green appearance comes from the mix of that blue with yellow oxide. Yellow oxide is not yellow per se, more yellow ochre, but in recent correspondence the use of existing stores white, yellow and blue paints to unit mix Sky was touched on. This would create a much stronger, greener looking colour (remind you of anything circa 1940?). All that is before you consider illuminants. There seems no doubt that later wartime Sky was often paler in application and towards the appearance you describe.

Of course most Americans think that Sky is actually gray.

Regards

Nick

[gingerbob]

Dave: "If yo9u check out the forum on the Spitfire site, there is a correction posted about that one."

Couldn't find it. Could only find a short thread where the artist re-affirmed the choice of Azure as "Cambridge blue" and provided a Google images link to reference the colour (!). So, re-iterating:-

Here it is

Bob: "my perception of Sky is that it is more like a greenish-tinted off-white"

Using the original pigments it is a very pale blue-green, like the colour of a duck egg (!), but the blue caste is not always perceived by the eye. Blue-greens are difficult, especially if very pale, as perceptively one of those colours (blue or green) tend to dominate.... All that is before you consider illuminants. There seems no doubt that later wartime Sky was often paler in application and towards the appearance you describe.

Of course most Americans think that Sky is actually gray.

Regards

Nick

OK, first of all, I try to take plenty of 'illuminants' before I try to divine proper colours!

I know exactly what you mean about the green/blue issue- my first (beloved) car was one of those, and it always annoyed me when people would say, "Oh, that green one over there?" My car was BLUE, darnit!

And I for one know that the English sky IS usually gray- but then I was usually there in Jan/Feb/Mar, so I'm probably one of the few people who step out into a damp, raw, chilly day and think "God, I wish I could be in London!".

Thanks for validating my perception of later war Sky.

bob

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for the link Bob. It confirms Cambridge Blue but not the colour. Personally I don't think the profile is typical of how Cambridge blue would have been typically perceived at that time.

The blue/green thing distracts me almost as much as the grey/brown thing so I appreciate very much your anecdote. That is exactly it. Some will see a pale blue where others will see a pale green. The combination of "unusual colour" and the term Cambridge blue makes me think that the observer was trying to describe a very pale blue-green - if not, why not just say "light blue" or "sky blue"?

Trust me, Bob, grey skies in England are not limited to Jan/Feb/Mar. Neither are cold nor rain.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Nick Millman