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Shaun

F-4J (UK) Phantom

167 posts in this topic

You can probley guess the question allready! :rolleyes:

What are the best colours out of the tin to produce the delivery "Incorrect greys" scheme?

Another question about the colour is the pattern of the colour scheme. I've been looking though a few books on my shelf and have compared these to the Yellow hammer decals instructions and I have a few questions?

The photo's of ZE359 show the upper and lower inner wing panels painted the same colour as the fuselage, was this a one off variation of the scheme or were more aircraft painted like this?

I know this is a well talked about subject, but as normal the more you research the more conflicting info you find.

Shaun.

Edited by Shaun

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Open to be corrected but i think it's Xtracolour X127 !! :analintruder:

Edited by Gundylunch

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What type of daylight do you want to depict it in? I mixed Flint Grey with Sky in approx 50-50 and got the colour I saw...

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I'll have dig though the paint box and try a few colours on scrap card and then compare them to photos.

Edited by Shaun

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Xtracolour 127 is a perfect match...

Two bits of F4J's that i have..

you can see the paint difference ...

Picture030.jpg

Cheers,

Neil

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I reckon thats a pretty definitive answer. Therefore its pinned to remain visible!

Cheers Neil.

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Xtracolour 127 is a perfect match...

Two bits of F4J's that i have..

you can see the paint difference ...

Picture030.jpg

Cheers,

Neil

Was '352 one of the ones repainted in Camouflage Grey?

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You can probley guess the question allready! :rolleyes:

What are the best colours out of the tin to produce the delivery "Incorrect greys" scheme?

Another question about the colour is the pattern of the colour scheme. I've been looking though a few books on my shelf and have compared these to the Yellow hammer decals instructions and I have a few questions?

The photo's of ZE359 show the upper and lower inner wing panels painted the same colour as the fuselage, was this a one off variation of the scheme or were more aircraft painted like this?

I know this is a well talked about subject, but as normal the more you research the more conflicting info you find.

Shaun.

Hi Shaun, I mentioned in the other current F-4J UK thread that I have a friend who's a 74 Sqn Phantom expert - well, it's just me that calls him that, he'd never term himself an 'expert', but I've e-mailed him this morning & asked him again for his thoughts on 74 sqn's original J colours. I don't know what pics you've looked at that give the impression the inner wings are the same colour as the fuselage, but some that he took of a 74 sqn machine in a HAS have been posted on the IPMS West Glamorgan website & have subsequently found their way (as things do!!) onto many other sites. Because of the fluo lighting in the shelter the inner wings look exactly the same as the fuselage - he assures me that in daylight they weren't!

Anyway, these are his thoughts on the matter. Like everyone, his perception of colours can vary from anyone elses, but he's always been a modeller so has always taken a keen interest in colours so I value his input. Also, he spent a good few weeks with 74 sqn when on summer camp with the University of Wales Air Squadron, so saw many of the machines still in the delivery scheme - & took a fair few photos of the same. Just thought I'd post it for interest sake if nothing else!!

This is what he told me;

"Inner wings on the J(UK)'s were painted MSG - or US equivalent of - including the one I photographed under the sodium lamps. For Spey RAF Tooms it should be Barley grey fuselage/outer wings, MSG inner wings and LAG underneath, for the J's the paints used are often quoted as Flint grey (whatever that is), Neutral grey (36270) and Lt Gull Grey (36440) respectively . Toom scheme was designed so that under 'normal' lighting conditions inner wing colour "appeared" the same colour as the fuselage.

And an exact match to the paint? I was told in '86 by guys on 74 Sqn that the RAF noticed pretty sharpish that the J(UK)'s were a funny colour and requested that the yanks correct it, which apparently they attempted to do as they progressed through the paintshop stateside prior to delivery. Don't think I've ever seen two J(UK)'s that look the exact same colour or indeed two photo's of the same machine that seem to match exactly!? When I've painted mine I've always gone for the colour mix that matches my minds eye (with a little photographic back-up), whatever shade I end up with, give me 5 mins and I'll find a piccie of a J(UK) that matches it exactly!!! "

As I say, just one modellers thoughts, & whatever paint you use you should be able to find a photo that matches (given the usual caveats about weathering, film stock, lighting, etc etc!!) One of the other guys in the club built a Tamiya 32nd scale J & used a lifecolor Japanese Navy WW2 grey/green shade. That looked spot on too.....!!!!

Keef

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Thanks for the info Keef.

The photos that made me think that the inner wing is the same colour as the fuselage are the photo's of ZE359 in both "Tiger Squadrons by Tim Laming" and "The last of the Phantoms by Ian Black". Anyone with these books take a look, maybe "Juilet" ZE359 was a one off?

This site is a good reference for all of the airframes, not the best photo's but they do show the diferent hues that the aircraft displayed on delivery and later on when they got black tails and repaints.

http://www.f4phantoms.co.uk/74tail.html

The debate continues?

Shaun.

Edited by Shaun

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.... "The last of the Phantoms by Ian Black". Anyone with these books take a look, maybe "Juilet" ZE359 was a one off?

Hi Shaun,

funny you should mention that, I had a look in that one this morning after I posted! The pic of 359 on page 41 certainly does look like she has very similar fuselage/inner wing colours - but what I also noticed was that the flaps (& "spoileron" on the starboard wing) look to be a different colour to the inner wings, somewhat similar to the outer wings??

Confusing??!! And people think interpreting WW2 black & white pics is difficult.....!!! :rolleyes::D

Keef

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i decided all the confusion over the colours was too much for me and just went for the standard RAF phantom colours on mine :thumbsup:

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but what I also noticed was that the flaps (& "spoileron" on the starboard wing) look to be a different colour to the inner wings, somewhat similar to the outer wings??

Keef

The leading edge droops and the rear flaps appear to medium sea gray on this example and are a real contrast to the blue/green inner wing panels.

Shaun.

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According to Linewrites Aeroguide 25 McDonnel Douglas F-4J(UK) Phantom, in the summer of '85 these aircraft were delivered with fuselage, outer wing panels and tailplanes in FS36314 inner wing panels in FS36270 and undersides of FS36440 (as quoted above) which were the closest US equivalents, however in April '88 ZE356 (Q) ZE360 (O) and ZE361 (P) were repainted in standard RAF Phantom colours of Barley Grey (BS4800-18B2) and Medium Sea Grey (BS381c-637) with Light Aircraft Grey (BS381C-627) undersurfaces.

It goes further to mention the FS colors 36270 is the lighter shade used on F16's. 36440 was used on the undersides of AV8B's, while in it's 16440 glossy form it was used overall on some US Navy F14 Tomcats (aka Gull Grey) However, the inner wing panel FS36314 was unlike samples seen elsewhere having a distinct bluish green hue, this has been explained as a thin coat over 'yellow primer' this finish had a distict glossy finish as can be seen in the photo's in the book

. . . Kes

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36440 was used on the undersides of AV8B's, while in it's 16440 glossy form it was used overall on some US Navy F14 Tomcats (aka Gull Grey)

36440 (Light gull grey) was the standard USN colour for almost the whole post war period after it replaced Gloss Sea Blue, until the TPS lo viz schemes came in, first over white undersides (usually with white upper control surfaces too) and then as you mention as an overall colour (not just on Tomcats either, Phantoms for one also used it)

Keef

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I've pick up 3 tins of Xtracolour using the FS codes in the Linewrights book.

I've got an 1/48th F-4J on the bench at the moment, so I give them a go in the near future.

I was thinking of undercoating the fuselarge with Humrol Matt65 (aircraft blue) and see how the FS16314 looks when applyed over the top?

Time for some scrap plastic to shoot some test paint on.

I've found great photo in the Phantom Spirit in the skies book of "Wiskey" in a the dark during a thunderstorm, this aircraft even looks blue around the nose area when photographed in the dark!

Here a photo of another "blue" aircraft but have a look at the nose and you can see a replacement panel has been fitted painted normal gray.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Mc...ff57d51bab8398f

What do you think the colour of this one was?, note the contrast in the upper and lower gray shades and you can compare theses to the medium sea gray Hawk in the background.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Mc...ff57d51bab8398f

Shaun.

Edited by Shaun

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I was thinking of undercoating the fuselarge with Humrol Matt65 (aircraft blue) and see how the FS16314 looks when applyed over the top?

Time for some scrap plastic to shoot some test paint on.

Why not try a test patch of the grey over zinc chromate primer as well, as that was allegedly what caused the colour to go 'greeny'?

What do you think the colour of this one was?, note the contrast in the upper and lower gray shades and you can compare theses to the medium sea gray Hawk in the background.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Mc...ff57d51bab8398f

Shaun.

Looks like a fairly fresh repaint into 'normal' Toom greys to me? Although the grey FGR2's tended to have a single colour radome, so that may trick the eye into thinking this one is different?

Keef

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Looks like a fairly fresh repaint into 'normal' Toom greys to me? Although the grey FGR2's tended to have a single colour radome, so that may trick the eye into thinking this one is different?

Keef

Its painted in the Amercan delivery paints, look at the low viz EJ seat triangles markings.

This aircraft looks closer to FS16270 Neutral grey?

Edited by Shaun

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... look at the low viz EJ seat triangles markings.

Good spot - forgot about those. Again! Could be the lighting, the sun is obviously high, but the sky looks a bit of a washed out blue? I'm still going the 'greeny grey' route when I eventually get round to mine!

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One of the squadron songs went;

"We have fifteen F4Js

Some are blue, and some are grey..."

Must find all the words....

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I found this pic so thiough I would stick it in this thread.

B0389.jpg

Photographer unknown

Julien

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Don't apologise Julien, You can never haver toooooo many Spook pictures !! :analintruder:

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I'm getting closer to painting my J and still have not worked out what paint to use?

I've test painted the Extracolours and it looks wrong. Flint grey is too light with no hint of the blue/green tint of the real paintwork. The Medium grey for the wings also lacks the blue hint, so I'm going to try a few more shades from the rack.

Shaun.

Edited by Shaun

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From memory I think that Xtracolour X127 is the kiddie you want for the early F-4J (UK ) !! You can cross check with the other spook fans here !! :analintruder:

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From memory I think that Xtracolour X127 is the kiddie you want for the early F-4J (UK ) !! You can cross check with the other spook fans here !! :analintruder:

Can someone provide a photo of a model painted in this colour?, I've got a few blues in the racks but there too blue.

I haven't got a any X127 in stock.

Edited by Shaun

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