Luftwaffe cockpit colours

[Tony C]

Hi All,

Possibly a silly question, is there such a thing as a standard colour for the cockpits on Luftwaffe aircraft?

I have several kits and all suggest different shades ranging from RLM02, Grey or even RLM Grey so wonder if anyone come make any suggestions to the colour to use?

If it helps, I have ready access to Humbrol and Xtracrylics and can order WEM.

Thanks,

Tony

[Seamus]

Not a silly question at, it's not actually as straightforward as you may think. The two main colours used in Luftwaffe cockpits were RLM 02 and RLM 66. Typically, RLM 02 was used in the early years of the war, with RLM 66 replacing it at some point- I'm not entirely sure exactly when, though 1941 rings a bell. No doubt someone can confirm this for sure. The changeover probably varied for differing aircraft too, so to best check any references you may have for a particular aircraft operating at a particular time. Also, it may worth noting that it wasn't necessarily the whole interior that changed colour. For example, I've recently completed a Heinkel 111, which operated in Finland in 1944. This meant that the cockpit section of the interior was RLM 66, but the rest remained as RLM 02.

For the colour ranges you've mentioned, Hu 67 gives a pretty good match for RLM 66, but doesn't have a suitable match for RLM 02, that I know of at least. Not sure about WEM, but if Xtracrylics are the same as Xtracolor, as I suspect they might be, then there's good matches for both RLM 02 and RLM 66 (X201 and X203 respectively). A quick search on Hannants shows these to correspond to XA1201 and XA1203.

HTH, as I said, I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject than I can add more firm details

Cheers

Shaun

[Heraldcoupe]

RLM 02 early, and RLM 66 late is a good rule of thumb. The Ju-88 featured here however throws a spanner in the works regarding how early the RLM 66 was implemented as an interior colour. This is an early aircraft, dating from January 1940, yet features RLM 66 for major cockpit components.

Cheers,

Bill.

[Stonar]

To quote one of the guys working on the Norwegian project

our Ju 88A1 is the earlist surviving junkers 88 today and it was the the 70 junkers 88A1 that rolled of the productionline ( werknumber 0880119 )

and also one of the first with the X gerat installed ! it interios is painted in RLM 66 and do not have any parts painted in 02 )

i can not speak of all early Ju 88`s but the C2 we have is werknumber 0880133 and that is also painted in interior 66.. and also the A5 0886146 salvaged was painted in 66..so to me that that is a clear clue that during the BoB they were all 66 in the interior

Guttorm

You gotta try and find a reference for the aircraft you are building! I've got a BOB Ju 88 A in the stash and one day its cockpit will be RLM 66.

Steve

[Heraldcoupe]

Well done Steve, that was the exact quote I knew I'd read, but I couldn't find it when I replied earlier!

Cheers,

Bill.

[tango98]

Hi Tony,

Not certain which Luftwaffe types you are considering but the following may be of interest to you if modelling Bf 109s or 190s.

In brief, research to date by my colleagues and I along with photographs and the information contained within copies of the relevant RLM & Messerschmitt documentation in our files identifies the basic cockpit colour for the entire 109E, F-0 and the earliest F-1 series as 02 with the instrument panel in 66 although grey 41 is also mentioned in one reference to instrument panels fitted to early E-1s.

However, while it is true that some E models did feature cockpits finished entirely in 66, this was due to which particular sub-contractor (e.g. Arado, Fieseler etc) built the airframe (regardless of sub-type) and not because of any directive, theatre of operation etc.

Photographic evidence of 109s brought down over the UK during the B of B where the interior of the cockpit is clearly visible, clearly show that, while the sidewalls, seat etc are finished in 02, the cockpit sills and sloping area immediately behind the pilot’s shoulders was finished in a much darker colour, which was, in all probability, black-grey 66. Logic dictating that it was likely carried out for two simple reasons - to eliminate glare and to avoid compromising the dark(er) upper fuselage camouflage of the aircraft when viewed from above. Additionally and just to confuse matters further, several E variants brought down over the UK which bore 02 finished cockpits had very dark coloured floor panels suggesting the use of perhaps 66 or even black for these areas.

Interestingly, every enemy aircraft that was brought down over the UK was extensively photographed in situ, the first being four basic views of the front, rear and port and starboard sides followed by areas of interest such as crew/cockpit areas etc. In such photos of 109s where the light grey (02) interior of the cockpit is clearly visible, several have the upper areas finished in a darker colour as mentioned above with a few, as also outlined above, having dark painted (i.e. 66) cockpits. This same is true in extant photos of many of the 109Es brought down, captured etc in the Mediterranean theatre, which, while retaining a basic 02 cockpit, have all areas above the pilot’s, shoulders painted in 66 or similar dark colour.

As far as canopy framing goes, that for the early rounded style was generally finished in 02 but according to recent documentary evidence discovered by German and Dutch researchers, the heavier framed canopies were painted inside and out in 66 at the source of manufacture. The exterior framework often being left in this colour rather than being repainted to match the surrounding camouflage finish; this would then be the most likely explanation why many 109s with the heavier framed canopies are often seen with the exterior canopy framework much darker than the adjacent camouflage colour(s).

For all subsequent Bf 109F, G & K variants with the exception of a few of the very earliest Bf 109F-1s, the entire cockpit, including seat was finished in 66, the same being generally true for all variants of the Fw 190 excluding the very early V (prototype) airframes.

As a broad rule of thumb, 02 as a cockpit finish was ordered replaced by 66 in November 1941. However, if your chosen subject is to have an 02 cockpit, don't worry too much about the variety of shades of this colour available in model paints as the same inconsistencies occurred even with the real colour which led to the RLM sending out advisory notices on several occasions between mid-1941 and early 1944 quoting that no concern should be raised about the colour differences between batches of 02 citing such things as quality control etc, etc.

HTH

Dave

[cdk]

Hello all,

if someone have the Merrick/Kiroff book Luftwaffe Cam. & Mark. Vol1, on page 217 is a copie from a 1936 schedule about Do17 E colours. The cockpit to Spant ( stringer in english?) 7 is to be paint in Colour 66. After Spant 7 it is to paint in Silver. This is the earlist Date that I know about RLM66 as an interior colour.

Claus from Germany

[lasermonkey]

I remember reading a thread over at the '109 Lair, many moons ago, where the subject of RLM 66 was discussed at length. Apparently, later on, 66 wasn't just one colour! There were cases of dark green 66, certainly. I'll have to see whether I can locate the thread........

Well, I found this, if it helps..... linky

Edited August 4, 2009 by lasermonkey

[Stonar]

Outstanding stuff Dave. Bill and I were referring specifically to BOB era Ju 88s but the original question was broader. Claus, not sure where stringer 7 would be on that type but it seems to imply a horizontal demarcation, presumably between RLM 66 (upper) and Some kind of silver finish (lower) that would broadly coincide with Dave's info about the early(ish) 109s.

All good fun. I'm quite sure I got the last Ju 87 I did wrong but hey ho! I'll put it on the top shelf!

Cheers

Steve

BTW Guttorm is quoted from the excellent thread that ran/is running over on LSP. Credit where it is due.

Steve

[coolhand]

Hi Guys,

On the subject of WWII German interior colours, I have brought a set of White Ensign paints to complete a JU 87 and the RLM 02 tin lid seems to be a gray/green colour. Is this correct?

Does anybody else use this colour from WEM?

Edited August 4, 2009 by coolhand

[Stonar]

If I use enamels I use WEM. They work well for me and are good matches for the RLM (and other) colours. I understand they go to some lengths to achieve this. RLM 02 is indeed a grey/green colour.

Steve

[Tony C]

Not certain which Luftwaffe types you are considering ....

Thanks for all the advise, its certainly helpful.

Currently the types on the bench are a Bf 108B, Dorner Do.335 whilst I have the Heinkel He 219 in the wings and following the simples rule, the Bf 108 will be RLM 02 whilst the Do.335 would be RLM 66?

Cheers,

Tony

[Spitfire31]

Hello all,

if someone have the Merrick/Kiroff book Luftwaffe Cam. & Mark. Vol1, on page 217 is a copie from a 1936 schedule about Do17 E colours. The cockpit to Spant ( stringer in english?) 7 is to be paint in Colour 66. After Spant 7 it is to paint in Silver. This is the earlist Date that I know about RLM66 as an interior colour.

Claus from Germany

Just to clear up the language hurdle: German "Spant" (same word in Swedish, in fact) isn't "stringer" but should be translated frame. So the above quoted demarcation would be oriented vertically, not horisontally.

HTH.

Best,

Joachim

[Stonar]

Just to clear up the language hurdle: German "Spant" (same word in Swedish, in fact) isn't "stringer" but should be translated frame. So the above quoted demarcation would be oriented vertically, not horisontally.

HTH.

Best,

Joachim

Oh well, like I said , it's all good fun. Thanks for the translation. As for late war Luftwaffe colours, people get a bit hot under the collar about the variations. I think it is safe to say that the RLM colours were not consistent in the latter stages of the war, hardly surprising in a shrinking Reich being bombed into next week! I look on the bright side - unless someone can find a nice colour photo of my aircraft then I'm right lol

Steve

[Spitfire31]

I think it is safe to say that the RLM colours were not consistent in the latter stages of the war, hardly surprising in a shrinking Reich being bombed into next week! I look on the bright side - unless someone can find a nice colour photo of my aircraft then I'm right lol

Steve

Amen to that!

Joachim

[Steven Eisenman]

The early/late dichotomy is just wrong. No definite rules.

Early He 111s appear to have 02, while the P and beyond appear to be 66

Same with the Do 17; with the Z model, 66 seems to be the the way.

Except for the earliest A-0 models, the Fw 190 appears to have always had a 66 pit.

If there is a relationship, it appears to be the amount of glass covering the cockpit area and the use of 02 or 66. The more glass, the more likely the use of 66. Of course there are exceptions to that, as in the case of early 110s and Ju 87s. As Dave noted above, it was also manufacturer dependent, even Fiesler painted the Bf 109E different from an Me produced machine

[Tony C]

Another question regarding the Do.335!

What are the correct colours for the propeller blades and hubs?

I did a quick search and found information on this site and have followed the information using Xtracrylics but it just don't seem right to my eye (should they be darker than RLM70?).

Is anyone able confirm please!

[tango98]

Tony,

Prop blades on the 335 were finished in black green 70. There is an excellent article on the 335 and its camo scheme by Michael Ullmann in the reference section of Hyperscale. Link: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/do335camomu_1.htm

Also, as far as 02 is concerned, even the RLM couldn't guarantee consistency of hue between batches/manufacturers and issued several directives/notices to that effect between 1942 and 1944. Thus it may be argued that any of the currently available 02 model paints despite their differences in hue are suitable for use on a model where that colour is required.

Cheers

Dave

[CornishRebel]

A friend of mine had a book about Luftwaffe colours, and it had in it a copy of an RLM directive from mid 1940 (if I remember correctly) stating some thing along the lines of...

"...all areas of the cockpit visible to the pilot are to be painted RLM 66 Schwarzgrau..."

It would appear that some interpretation is needed. Some units took this to mean sidewalls, floor, instrument panel, front and rear bulkheads, anti-glare panels, interior framing etc. Some took it more liberally, and left rear bulkheads and floors in RLM 02. Most manufacturers were using RLM 66 from late 1940 onwards. As with all Luftwaffe subjects, unless you have colour photos of your (unrestored, or messed with) subject, then no-one can prove you wrong!

All the best,

Phil

[Colin S-K]

Hi All,

Possibly a silly question, is there such a thing as a standard colour for the cockpits on Luftwaffe aircraft?

I have several kits and all suggest different shades ranging from RLM02, Grey or even RLM Grey so wonder if anyone come make any suggestions to the colour to use?

If it helps, I have ready access to Humbrol and Xtracrylics and can order WEM.

Thanks,

Tony

Tony,

Give me an email at,

[email protected]

Have a reference work that might help....

Colin

[Edubarca]

Hello all my friends. This might be a little outdated, but I am desperately looking for the interior colours of both undercarriage wheel wells, doors and cabin interior, also struts and wheels of the Heinkel He-111 of the Battle of Britain with only splinter camouflage- It is incredible how many different discussions have appeared regarding the correct interior colours of Luftwaffe aircraft, I am repainting a card scale model of the He-111 and I want to do it as accurate as possible without exaggerating or becoming an obsession. Thanks lot.!!!

[Seawinder]

1 hour ago, Edubarca said:

Hello all my friends. This might be a little outdated, but I am desperately looking for the interior colours of both undercarriage wheel wells, doors and cabin interior, also struts and wheels of the Heinkel He-111 of the Battle of Britain with only splinter camouflage- It is incredible how many different discussions have appeared regarding the correct interior colours of Luftwaffe aircraft, I am repainting a card scale model of the He-111 and I want to do it as accurate as possible without exaggerating or becoming an obsession. Thanks lot.!!!

From what I've read, a decent rule of thumb is that Luftwaffe bombers had cockpits painted RLM 66 by the Battle of Britain. All the other parts you mention of the He 111 would have been RLM 02 except for wheel hubs, which were semi-gloss black.

[72modeler]

I'm pretty sure the undercart, wheel bays, and interior of the gear doors would be RLM 02; the Elektron wheel hubs most likely would be a semi-gloss black. The instrument panel would be RLM 66. The cockpit and gunner's stations could either be RLM 66 or RLM 02, depending on the time period, 1940 or 1941, respectably; IIRC, the manufacturer could also determine which interior color was used. There seems to be fairly credible evidence that some types continued using RLM 02 almost to the end of the war- existing stocks were also allowed to be used up. Sooooo, I'm definitely, positively, not sure! (Glad I could help- hee!, hee!) You do have color photos of the interior of the He-111 you want to model, right?

 

Mike 

[Edubarca]

Thank you very much my friends. I'll try "paint" my card He-111 as accurate as possible and as soon as I finish it, I will post here a couple of sheets so you can confirm  me if I was accurate.

EDUARDO