F4U-4 and -5 Corsairs

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello All,

I need help in a couple of Corsair questions.

1) I have seen a few pix of F4U-4 with the high back -5 canopy. They also seem to have cannon wings. Is it possible that a batch of late -4 Corsairs were completed with -5 canopies and metal wings?

2) Bordelon F4U-5: The prevailing wisdom is that the antiglare panel is black. but in the detail and scale books, there are a lot of pictures that show F4U-5N

with what looks like Non specular sea blue antiglare panels, plus there is some evidence (IMHO) that this continued at least till F4U-7 production was started.

Could anyone confirm or comment on these issues?

Edited July 20, 2009 by Tony Whittingham

[darson]

Hello All,

I need help in a couple of Corsair questions.

1) I have seen a few pix of F4U-4 with the high back -5 canopy. They also seem to have cannon wings. Is it possible that a batch of late -4 Corsairs were completed with -5 canopies and metal wings?

2) Bordelon F4U-5: The prevailing wisdom is that the antiglare panel is black. but in the detail and scale books, there are a lot of pictures that show F4U-5N

with what looks like Non specular sea blue antiglare panels, plus there is some evidence (IMHO) that this continued at least till F4U-7 production was started.

Could anyone confirm or comment on these issues?

Tony dash 4 Corsairs were used as the prototypes for the dash 5 models which may explain the pictures you have. Other than that I not much help sorry.

[silverkite211]

In the Squadron/Signal book dealing with the Corsair there are a couple of photos of VC-3 F4U-5Ns, including one of Guy Bordelon's a/c. The one that shows Bordelon's Corsair is a side view and it sure looked to me as though the anti-glare panel is black, that is how I painted it on the model of his aircraft that I built. The other photo is of a different VC-3 Corsair with it's wings folded, the photographer is looking down at it from "Vulture's Row", it shows how the underside of the left wing should be marked, which pretty much every model maker gets wrong on their decal sheet. Another thing that they get wrong is the color of the radome, Hasegawa has you paint it black, for example, when it should be the same color of pale blue that was used on, well everything that was typically white, on a GSB F4U and the propellor boss.

I'm just guessing, but, as for the F4U-4, could it be a F4U-4B? I don't have my Squadron book handy, so I can't look it up, at the moment to even see if the F4U-4B was even armed with cannon.

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello Silverkite and Darson,

Thanks for the info.

I am looking at the the F4U-4B on page 42 of Squadron 1145 ( the new Corsair book) the BuNo is 97527. There is also a F4U-4B on pg 44 of Squadron 1029 (BuNo 62979?)This BuNo does not fin into the serial allocation stated in Detail and Scale. There is also one in Detail and Scale 56 page 40 with a high back canopy.

So my question is twofold: Is the antiglare panel really black on F4U-5 Corsairs. Given that I do not seem to be able to locate pix of F4U-4s and AU-1 in Korea, or F4U-7 with black antiglare panels, I am now wondering whether or not this should be NS sea blue. Or was it possible that this only applies to the -5 models.

Secondly, Is it possible that a late -4B Corsair batch (97XXX) has metal covered cannon wings, in addition to the high back canopy?

I hope an ex-Vought employee or Corsair crewman/driver can verify some of this.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Tony Whittingham

[Colin S-K]

Hello All,

I need help in a couple of Corsair questions.

1) I have seen a few pix of F4U-4 with the high back -5 canopy. They also seem to have cannon wings. Is it possible that a batch of late -4 Corsairs were completed with -5 canopies and metal wings?

2) Bordelon F4U-5: The prevailing wisdom is that the antiglare panel is black. but in the detail and scale books, there are a lot of pictures that show F4U-5N

with what looks like Non specular sea blue antiglare panels, plus there is some evidence (IMHO) that this continued at least till F4U-7 production was started.

Could anyone confirm or comment on these issues?

Tony,

Cannot comment on question, but have 7 reference works that might help.......

Quite happy to send CD.

Feel free to email,

[email protected]

Colin

[silverkite211]

I just dug out my copy of the Squadron book and I'm looking at the picture on page 42. It sure looks to me as though the Corsair pictured has the higher canopy and four cannon armament. As you know, it also identifies the aircraft as a F4U-4P, which was derived from the F4U-4B.

I also still think that anti-glare panels, when they were used at all, were flat black, just going by the photos in the book.

[datguy]

In the Squadron/Signal book dealing with the Corsair there are a couple of photos of VC-3 F4U-5Ns, including one of Guy Bordelon's a/c. The one that shows Bordelon's Corsair is a side view and it sure looked to me as though the anti-glare panel is black, that is how I painted it on the model of his aircraft that I built. The other photo is of a different VC-3 Corsair with it's wings folded, the photographer is looking down at it from "Vulture's Row", it shows how the underside of the left wing should be marked, which pretty much every model maker gets wrong on their decal sheet. Another thing that they get wrong is the color of the radome, Hasegawa has you paint it black, for example, when it should be the same color of pale blue that was used on, well everything that was typically white, on a GSB F4U and the propellor boss.

There is an excellent color photo of Bordelon's NP-21, with the 5 red "kill" stars, on Page 186 of Dorr and Thompson's Korean Air War, Motorbooks Intl. 1994/2003; ISBN 0-7603-1511. The radome is unequivocally black, it's roughly painted and streaky, but definitely not the same blue as the code and star-and-bars. The matt antiglare panel is clearly delineated, and appears to be sea blue rather than black. A better lit, and also full color view of NP-27 with white markings on page 174 shows the radome as a very light grey, different from the markings. This suggests that the radome was overpainted on Bordelon's bird at the same time (or after) the point when the codes were oversprayed with blue. The anti glare panel is again clearly visible, but more obviously matt sea blue.

F4U-4s of VF-74 aboard USS Bon Homme Richard in May 1952 depicted on page show no matt antiglare panels, so they may have been specific to the night-fighters.

DG

edited for clarity

Edited July 22, 2009 by datguy

[Tony Whittingham]

Thanks, datguy! and Thanks to all who helped answer my questions

Edited July 22, 2009 by Tony Whittingham

[Scooby]

On 2009-07-21 at 6:13 PM, datguy said:

There is an excellent color photo of Bordelon's NP-21, with the 5 red "kill" stars, on Page 186 of Dorr and Thompson's Korean Air War, Motorbooks Intl. 1994/2003; ISBN 0-7603-1511. The radome is unequivocally black, it's roughly painted and streaky, but definitely not the same blue as the code and star-and-bars. The matt antiglare panel is clearly delineated, and appears to be sea blue rather than black. A better lit, and also full color view of NP-27 with white markings on page 174 shows the radome as a very light grey, different from the markings. This suggests that the radome was overpainted on Bordelon's bird at the same time (or after) the point when the codes were oversprayed with blue. The anti glare panel is again clearly visible, but more obviously matt sea blue.

F4U-4s of VF-74 aboard USS Bon Homme Richard in May 1952 depicted on page show no matt antiglare panels, so they may have been specific to the night-fighters.

DG

edited for clarity

 

I know I am bumping an old thread, can you scan the images on these two pages of Bordelon's Corsair?

 

Or if anyone else has the above noted book could you also post it?

[72modeler]

Tony,

 

IIRC, the windscreens and canopies on the F4U-4's were of two types- the first was identical to the w/s and canopy fitted to the F4U-1D; it had a w/s with a curved front panel and a frameless bubble hood. I don't recall the BuNo at which production dash-4's switched to the second type, which had a broader w/s with a flat center panel, as well as a wider bubble hood that was flatter at the top than the 1st type; I might be wrong, but the earlier F4U-4's with 6 .50cal armament might have been more likely to have had the 1st design, as the dash-4B's with the 4 20mm seem to have the second type. There was a third type, fitted toF4U-5N's/ F4U-7's and also AU-1's, I think, which had a frameless bubble hood that was taller at the back and was pinched in at the top to fit over a streamlined fairing that was attached at the top of the fuselage at the back of the canopy. I found a link to an excellent modeling reference on the canopies that will make this much more clear than what I have described below my comments. I would be somewhat wary of photos of F4U-4's that appear to have the dash-5 sliding hood, as restored warbirds are frequently modified, and the later hood could be fitted to an earlier airplane, as was done a while back with an F4U-1D that had its original canopy and rear deck section replaced with the corresponding pieces from a derelict birdcage Corsair! What made me suspicious was that the inboard flap section had the open step that wasn't fitted until the F4U-1A's and later! OK, Dana, please log on and help us out here!

 

Mike

 

http://zone-five.net/showthread.php?t=15860

 

Here's another very good modeler's reference on Corsairs- hope you find it useful as well.

 

http://www.f4ucorsair.com/history.html

Edited January 21, 2017 by 72modeler
link added, info corrected

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, Scooby said:

 

I know I am bumping an old thread, can you scan the images on these two pages of Bordelon's Corsair?

 

Or if anyone else has the above noted book could you also post it?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1330954303/LT+Guy+Bordelon's+F4U-5N,+VC-3+marking+color+Q

 

 

 

Quote

I've seen a couple photos that show the fuselage insignia pretty clearly, and you can see a thin stripe of white--1" or less"--above and below the red bars. My theory is that the red bars were masked off and someone ran the tape on the wrong side of the borderline. And then it was sprayed with whatever it was sprayed with. 

And then there's the matter of the non-standard antiglare panel on that airplane. Was it flat black, or a fresh coat of NSSB (which is darn dark right out of the can, before it starts fading)? Who knows? Certainly not me. 

 

 

 

 

there has been debate on hypescale (the search work pretty well) about when the switch on canopies of the F4U-4 happened,  also

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1158513852

Quote

F4U-4 raised canopy

September 17 2006, 5:50 PM

A small number of late model F4U-4 aircraft were fitted with a raised canopy. This was incorporated under MCR-168. A metal casting was added to the turtledeck aft of the canopy raising the overturn line by 2 inches. The casting was covered by a sheet metal fairing. This modification provided additional head room for the pilot. A new sliding canopy was required. The windscreen remained the same. And not only were some F4U-4P's equipped with the raised canopy. There is photographic evidence that some late model F4U-4B's serving in the Korean War had this modification. Regretfully, I don't have the effectivity date and BuNo's of the aircraft with the raised canopy design. Perhaps someone with access to such records will be able to track this down. Vought chose to continue the use of the raised canopy developed for the F4U-4 in the design of the F4U-5. This, and a redesign of the cockpit arrangement, allowed ample headroom for all pilots when seated at gunsight eye-level. In the F4U-5 Illustrated Maintenance Parts List, the windscreen and canopy assemblies are shown as interchangeable with the F4U-4. This indicates that the use of the raised canopy began with the F4U-4 series aircraft. Don

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1191560566

Quote

Paging all F4U Corsair expertsOctober 5 2007 at 1:02 AM    
Flint Marko  (Login impossiblescissors)
HyperScale Forums
from IP address 71.222.166.80
Two quick questions about the F4U-4B:

1. Did all F4U-4B's have the flat windscreen? Approximately how many F4U-4's overall were built with the rounded windscreen versus the flat one?

2. Did the F4U-4B have the fabric-covered wing like the F4U-4 and earlier, or did Vought switch to the all-metal wing by that point? I assume that it's fabric covered (all-metal didn't come into effect until the F4U-5,) but I haven't been able to confirm this from pictures.
 
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Joe Lyons
(Login jlyons97)
HyperScale Forums
24.250.119.34    
F4U-4    October 5 2007, 7:13 AM 

The first half (?) of production corsairs had rounded screens. The D&S book on late corsairs tells the BuNos. Be warned, with the teeny-tiny data block under the horizontal tail (type and BuNo), its very hard to tell which from which. So, if you're doing any -4 you will mostly have to depend on photos re the screens (and canopy). Even for telling -4s from -4Bs.

All F4U-4s had fabric outer wing panels.

Joe Lyons
 
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Leonard LaRoux
(Login neoteepo)
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70.145.155.17    
F4U-4s    October 5 2007, 9:08 AM 

Don't forget that with the new windscreen also came another new version of the "bubble" and it sat higher up causing a little fillet to be raised where it meets the top rear fuselage. All -5s, AU-1s and F4U-7s had these. Cheers, LL

'I was born handsome...but it didn't last' LL

    
This message has been edited by neoteepo from IP address 70.145.155.17 on Oct 5, 2007 9:15 AM

 
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Joe Hegedus
(Login JoeHegedus)
HyperScale Forums
72.9.10.209    
The higher canopy didn't come with the flat windscreen,    October 5 2007, 2:38 PM 

there were MANY flat windscreen -4 Corsairs with the lower canopy. All the high-canopy -4 were of the "B" subvariant, but all -4B did NOT have the high canopy.

FWIW, the lower canopy of the flat windscreen birds differed from the canopy of the round windscreen birds in that the half-circularish armor above the pilot's head was deleted with the flat-canopy version.
 
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Leonard LaRoux
(Login neoteepo)
HyperScale Forums
70.145.155.17    
Guess I didn't word that very well, didn't mean...    October 5 2007, 5:14 PM 

to say that ALL F4U-4s with the flat windscreen had the raised canopy. I just wanted to point out that the windscreen wasn't the only thing that varied. BTW your statement "the higher canopy didn't come with the flat windscreen" could be read to mean that birds with the final high canopy and fairing did not have flat windscreens! Language can be tricky eh? Cheers, LL

'I was born handsome...but it didn't last' LL
 
     

 

so... really, for modelling  accuracy, a photo is needed.

 

I'll stress again,  Hyperscale has a large US readership, so a lot of info on US types is better found there than here.

 

HTH

[72modeler]

Don,

 

I sure learned something new today from reading your post! I had no idea that any F4U-4's had the hood with the raised rear sections with the metal fairing, but I discovered that they were indeed fitted to very late production dash-4's and this hood was carried over to the dash-5's and subsequent Corsairs. I found an article on Tailhook Tommy's  website that confirmed your comments regarding the canopy variations, and I have attached it below. It also has a lot of details that will be useful for anybody building an F4U-4. Thanks for adding to my Corsair knowledge!

 

Mike

 

http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2014/03/f4u-4-modelers-notes.html

[e8n2]

In relation to the anti-glare panel, IAW Specification SR-2f of 2 Jan 47, Gloss Sea Blue aircraft were to have an anti-glare panel of Non-Specular Sea Blue.  There were a few exceptions that I have come across, the only two coming to mind easily were the F2H Banshee on either the night fighter or recon version, and the S2F.  On some photos of Navy aircraft at this time period it is easy to make out the anti-glare panel, others not so much.  On a couple of photos in the Ginter book on the PB4Y-2 Privateer, a couple of the aircraft appear to have anti-glare panels running in between the two upper turrets in addition to the normal one in front of the windshield.  In the book "B-17 in Blue" by Scott A. Thompson, on page 110, it is stated that the inboard areas of all four engine nacelles were also finished in Non-Specular Sea Blue in addition to the regular anti-glare panel.  This is an area that the Ginter books tend to get wrong, even though on the cover of volume 1 of the A3D book there is an overhead shot of an early GSB aircraft clearly showing the Non-Specular Sea Blue anti-glare panel.

Later,

Dave

[Scooby]

12 hours ago, e8n2 said:

In relation to the anti-glare panel, IAW Specification SR-2f of 2 Jan 47, Gloss Sea Blue aircraft were to have an anti-glare panel of Non-Specular Sea Blue.  There were a few exceptions that I have come across, the only two coming to mind easily were the F2H Banshee on either the night fighter or recon version, and the S2F.  On some photos of Navy aircraft at this time period it is easy to make out the anti-glare panel, others not so much.  On a couple of photos in the Ginter book on the PB4Y-2 Privateer, a couple of the aircraft appear to have anti-glare panels running in between the two upper turrets in addition to the normal one in front of the windshield.  In the book "B-17 in Blue" by Scott A. Thompson, on page 110, it is stated that the inboard areas of all four engine nacelles were also finished in Non-Specular Sea Blue in addition to the regular anti-glare panel.  This is an area that the Ginter books tend to get wrong, even though on the cover of volume 1 of the A3D book there is an overhead shot of an early GSB aircraft clearly showing the Non-Specular Sea Blue anti-glare panel.

Later,

Dave

 

I know what the specification dictates. Jim Sullivan sent me some great pictures last night, based on those it isn't definite what color it was. But if I were to chose a color based on those images I would go with non-specular sea blue.

 

One of my Corsair publications has a picture of Bordelon in his cockpit after the fifth kill. On page 209 of "Corsair The Saga the Legendary Bent-WIng Fighter-Bomber" by Walter A Musciano, there is a picture that sure makes it appear that the anti-glare area is black. It is a well defined difference and much darker. But it is a black and white photograph. Knowing Bordelon customized some of his paint (markings oversprayed and radome painted), I wonder if he customized this too?

 

What a can of worms.