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RAF Dark Green paint


Tony C

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An old thread - but a very interesting read for a newbie - this forum is a brilliant resource for this kind of thing :clap2:

I am doing some testing on "RAF Dark Green" at present - with a starting point of Humbrol 30 - which I have always used in rattle cans.

I'm now off to get some Vallejo Model Air equivalents for H116 & H163 - they sound very promising - thanks folks :)

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Humbrol 30 has been a poor match for at least, I could see it was blue compared to Airfix M3 when i was 8.....

 

see 

 

note H30  is closer to Extra Dark Sea Green

Quote

As promised, photos...

New tin, new style tin (twist top) Hu30, indirect sunlight:

image.jpg

Too green.

New tin, old style tin (flip top) Hu116:

image.jpg

Near perfect match.

New tin, old style tin (flip top) Hu163 (satin):

image.jpg

Hu163 looks darker, but that's probably the difference in sheen (satin versus matte).

And since Hu30 is recommended in some places as Extra Dark Sea Green:

image.jpg

Not blue enough for Extra Dark Sea Green.

If Humbrol is considering reformulating Hu30 (presumably both enamel and acrylic) they haven't done it in their new acrylic tins, yet. And considering how close Hu116 matches Dark Green, I'm not sure why Airfix continue to recommend Hu30 for Dark Green. Would anyone consider Hu30 a scale or faded match? I would not.

Tim

 

Have a read of the linked thread.

These may have been posted,  but links don't always get read..

 

HTH

T

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Thanks Troy - it certainly sounds like 116 or 163 equivalents are the way to go - for me at least - thanks for taking an interest.

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Airfix recommend H30 dark green since Airfix and Humbrol are in essence the same company, therefore they aren't going to say use 'X's paint are they?  H30 used to match the RAF Hendon master colour when it was first produced about 50 years ago.   Since then It and other colours have been adulterated with white to save expensive pigments and sloppy quality control too.  Quite frankly I don't think Humbrol care as long as they sell paint.  They now have competition from several other firms that produce acrylics the purport to have matching paints to official colours.  If the readings in the financial columns are any guide then Hornby will soon disappear altogether.

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Not sure about your dates there, Mike.  The Humbrol Authentics range first appeared in 6-packs 50 years ago and perhaps the first thing I noted was that Dark Green in the Authentics was much more olive than good old H30 that I'd used until then.  I doubt that it ever was intended to match the RAF colour.  Humbrols were sold as art oil enamels for the general market and model aircraft were only a small part of their range in the 50s. H30 was just a suitable dark green for anyone's use.  To back this, there is a comment above that the Airfix Dark Green was considerably different to H30, and we are talking about much the same timescale as the Authentics.  

 

There are a number of colours in the Humbrol range that were (at least initially) deliberately matched to aviation colours, suggesting at least phases of interest in specifically addressing the model market.  But it is an approach that tended to come and go, possibly with financial constraints or managerial changes.  For example, the Authentics that were released as individual tins were nowhere near as accurate as those originally released.  As another, H75 used to be a superb Deep Bronze Green, but has long been a much more anonymous dull dark green.

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I popped over to Halifax this afternoon for a rattle can 163 & an enamel tinlet of 116 - A4 white cards now primed with humbrol grey primer 1 & now coated with these 2 dark greens.

 

I have to say - they "nice" - I shall be spraying some patches of various green vallajo on them tomorrow - I'll keep you posted ;)

 

Depending on the results - I have a fresh empty Bertolli margarine tub - freshly washed out - that is just crying out for a Battle of Britain paint job :lol:

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 I have to say - when lined up next to my dark earth sample the H163 is looking much better than my old H30 - never thought I'd say that...

 

Thanks guys - I am learning so much here.

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I do miss proper Humbrol Authentic (I miss their proper paint smell too) paints, their introduction changed the game for me

 

Luftwaffe colours which looked real (yes I know there are detractors for some of the hues, but..) Royal Air Force colours for desert as well as European theatres and, at just the right time USAF Vietnam colours to paint our Phantoms and Spads in

 

The RAFDark Green was an eye opener, wow it's kinda DARK green

 

Who knew?

 

The satin finish post war RAF ones were marvellous...

 

I wish I could borrow Tardis for a trip back in time to Beatties in the Birmingham shopping centre, I'd only need twenty minutes... Oh no I'd need a bit longer so Terry and I could have a decent natter

 

Great thread resurrection.   🆗

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3 minutes ago, perdu said:

I do miss proper Humbrol Authentic (I miss their proper paint smell too) paints, their introduction changed the game for me

 

Luftwaffe colours which looked real (yes I know there are detractors for some of the hues, but..) Royal Air Force colours for desert as well as European theatres and, at just the right time USAF Vietnam colours to paint our Phantoms and Spads in

 

The RAFDark Green was an eye opener, wow it's kinda DARK green

 

Who knew?

 

The satin finish post war RAF ones were marvellous...

 

I wish I could borrow Tardis for a trip back in time to Beatties in the Birmingham shopping centre, I'd only need twenty minutes... Oh no I'd need a bit longer so Terry and I could have a decent natter

 

Great thread resurrection.   🆗

 

Ha Ha - The Tardis - I never thought of that :)

 

I don't have a sonic screwdriver - but I'll just take my airbrush ;)

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20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Humbrol 30 has been a poor match for at least, I could see it was blue compared to Airfix M3 when i was 8.....

 

see 

 

note H30  is closer to Extra Dark Sea Green

 

Have a read of the linked thread.

These may have been posted,  but links don't always get read..

 

HTH

T

 

Good job Troy!

 

Funny thing is that on my lap top I se differents shades of dark grey and PRU-blue, not different shades of green. But the difference is clearly seen anyway!
One can not trust at the computer! :mellow:

 

Sheers / André

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  • 2 weeks later...

Using Humbrol 163 as a definitive background for RAF Dark Green...

I'm sorry the picture quality isn't better - but you can see my dilema.  Also notice the painted "dots on the background.  Looking left to right - I reckon 3 / 5 / 6 look pretty OK.

dark_greens.jpg

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BigX, if you were in Halifax and bought a load of Vallejo, why not buy some Xtracrylix Dark Green? Seems to me a pretty good match.

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Hi, everyone,

 

TMEyes, Xtracrylixs looks good. Remember that the FS equivalent should be 34083, which is deeper than 34079, which would pass as a faded version of it. According to Nick, it is a definite olive green. Regarding Humbrol 30, it really looks like FS34092.

 

Fernando

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Here is my ongoing Finnish Hurricane project. The main colours are Humbrol rattlecan Dark Green/Dark Earth. For the purposes of this discussion look at the port wing at the join between the inner and outer wing.

 

944D82C3-981D-4F90-AF27-236B4A23C672_zps

 

The main part of the green is 163 from the can. The touch up is a new acrylic bottle......of 163.

 

Go figure.

 

Trevor 

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On 4 May 2017 at 0:24 PM, Fernando said:

Hi, everyone,

 

TMEyes, Xtracrylixs looks good. Remember that the FS equivalent should be 34083, which is deeper than 34079, which would pass as a faded version of it. According to Nick, it is a definite olive green. Regarding Humbrol 30, it really looks like FS34092.

 

Fernando

 

Not just according to me, Fernando. In describing the development of the RAF camouflage colours the RAE reported that "the Dark Green finally chosen to represent the various greens of nature was a dull "bronze" green, containing a proportion of red, with a diffuse reflectivity of 10%". Notwithstanding that statement that red was included in devising the colour, the 1940 formula for Dark Green paint made by Goodlass, Wall & Co. Ltd., for example, consisted of three pigment "bases" incorporating chromium oxide (green), vegetable black and brown precipitated iron oxide. Those pigments do not result in a cold, blueish green or even a straight green. That company's catalogue reference for Dark Green paint was 83914 but it was made from a combination of 83905, 83910 and 83907, each of which was a paint colour with its own constituent binder and solvents.

 

That's the applied paint. The MAP colour standard for Dark Green as measured is a Munsell Yellow (like Olive Drab) approaching Green Yellow, quite dark at 2.9 and of low saturation at 1.5. Geoff Thomas' Munsell equivalent as published in ‘Eyes for the Phoenix’ (Hikoki, 1999) & ‘True Colours’ (Airfix Magazine, Feb 1983) is similar to mine - 10 Y 3/1.5 vs 10 Y 2.9/1.5 - just being a tiny tad lighter. 

 

The current BS 381C gives 241 Dark Green as a Munsell Green Yellow, approximately 2.3 GY 3.3/1.2. Taking the BS 381c L*a*b* measurements the difference from the wartime colour is at 5.54 where < 2.0 = a close match. The modern colour is slightly less saturated and lighter. However the BS 381c L*a*b* measurements equate to Munsell 9.8 Y 3.5/0.9 so the issue is around the fine - and close - transition from a Y to GY. Either way that is on the "dark yellow"/olive drab side of green whilst a colder, less olive, viridian-type green would measure as a Munsell Green or Blue Green.

 

Where chrome green (a mixture of chrome yellow and Prussian blue) was used instead of chromium oxide (which was in short supply) the paint surface would shift towards more olive or brownish as the yellow gradually decomposes the blue pigment. Chromium oxide greens are quite stable but as other pigments in the mix degraded a stronger, brighter green appearance might be expected. That is counter intuitive where it is more common to expect all paints to "fade". Wartime documents show that even in official circles the difference between chromium oxide and chrome green pigments was not appreciated and the term "chrome green" was used to describe both. The use of both pigments by different paint companies would have resulted in paints that matched the standard to begin with but which weathered very differently. The significance of that is where extant paint samples are used to determine the original appearance of the Dark Green colour standard.

 

There is always a tendency to conflate paint colour standards with applied paints so that people talk about aircraft painted with MAP Dark Green, or ANA this or FS that. But those are colour standards and the applied paints were manufactured to match them against a colour card, with each manufacturers own designation and formula for each paint colour, not always recorded (and with so far unknown criteria for tolerance and acceptance of variance in most cases). There is and was inevitable variance, by manufacturer formula, batch, application and weathering. One evidenced example of this is a RAE August 1941 analysis of Night and Special Night paints as applied in 11 different aircraft factories using paints supplied by five different paint manufacturers. The paints differed in reflectivity, the application methods differed in effectiveness and the appearance and resilience of the painted surfaces varied and that was before the aircraft entered service and were subjected to exposure, weathering and wear or tear. 

 

To cut a long story short, whilst extremes of variance in colour should probably be avoided I think modellers can relax about minor variance and just go with their preferred paint brand. The models are replicating applied paint and all the other factors affecting its appearance and not the colour standard per se. 

 

Nick  

  

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On 5/5/2017 at 11:33 AM, Nick Millman said:

 

Not just according to me, Fernando. In describing...

  

Hi, Nick,

I have no intention of putting such a learned explanation as if it were mine. Or even my "opinion". That's why I have cited yours. I apologize if it sounded intrusive to you. Regards.

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  • 11 months later...

If nobody minds revival of an old thread, I've been wondering about Olive Drab... There's been no mention of Humbrol 155, Olive Drab.  I've used it on a Hurri, a Spit and a couple of Mossies and it looks 'authentic' but doesn't 'pop'.  Is 155 considered too brown?  (It shows up as a muddy brown in photos on my mac).  The 30 is definitely a lot brighter.

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In response to Graham's comment regarding 'off date'  I was referring to pre-Authentics in the 1950s when Humbrol introduced a new range of matt colours in double figures.  Nos 29 and 30 were Dark Earth and Dark Green respectively and matched the paint swatches inserted into the last volume of the Harleyford Fighting Powers series of books.  They matched the MAP colours but have since changed dramatically.  The question someone asked was " Why do Humbrol still advise No. 30 for RAF Dark Green?"  Simple, they did from the first models and no one has bothered or thought to change that advice.  Nor have Humbrol corrected the colour.  I mix my Dark Green by the tinfull matched closely to the RAF Museum book, same with Dark Earth.

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I can't say just what the relationship was between the initial early H30 and later ones, but when Authentics were released in their 6-packs (circa 1962?)  I was struck by the difference between H30 (which I'd happily been using up until then) and the darker more olive HB5.  As I believe, and others have argued, HB5 was a significantly better match for RAF Dark Green, then the change from H30 being a good match to Harleyford must have happened pretty rapidly.

 

EDIT  Actually late 1967, which is a rather longer time for the change(s).

 

 

Edited by Graham Boak
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5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

 when Authentics were released in their 6-packs (circa 1962?)

 

 

More like 1968-9. I remember clearly my dad buying them and reading the rolled up instruction leaflets which came with them, as an avid 6 year old. It was also around the time the Battle of Britain film came out. 

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Not that late.  I was at University 1965-68, and never lived at home again.  I had the Authentics boxes when I was living at home: I particularly remember working on the Airfix Dauntless and being disappointed with the USN Blue Grey being represented by a very dark colour.  Checking my lists, that makes it 1964.  I'm sorry that I can't recall just which other models I used them on - particularly the RAF Dark Green!  However I also had the Revell Fw200C in 1964 and don't recall using Authentic paints on that.

 

PS I do remember seeing adverts for the boxes when they first appeared, so perhaps someone could track down a date from those?

Edited by Graham Boak
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Re the Humbrol colours being matched to the colour chart in the last volume of 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' it was actually in Volume five that came out in December 1944. I have my copy open in front of me. Although the colours still look pretty good, the problem with it is that it is a printed chart rather than samples. I remember buying the RAF set and thinking the Dark Green was not like the Humbrol 30 I had used l, which makes me think the colours were drifting even then. 

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