Tony C Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Hi there, I have a question regarding the Dark Green colours used by the RAF during WW2 and beyond. Did the Dark Green change as the war progressed as Humbrol's 30 seems to be 'greener' than their 163? It also seems that the Xtracrylix RAF Dark Green is the same darker shade as Humbrol's 163 Is this an illusion to my ageing eyesight or were there two different shades? Thanks, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham T Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I believe that there WAS a difference between the WW2 & post WW2 shades but to be frank, allowing for variations caused by application media, substrate, manufacturers, lighting, weathering etc (on the real things!) I've never let it bother me & always used Xtracolour RAF Dark Green! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Hi there,I have a question regarding the Dark Green colours used by the RAF during WW2 and beyond. Did the Dark Green change as the war progressed as Humbrol's 30 seems to be 'greener' than their 163? It also seems that the Xtracrylix RAF Dark Green is the same darker shade as Humbrol's 163 Is this an illusion to my ageing eyesight or were there two different shades? Thanks, Tony I don't know what 30 was matched to but as far as I know it was never really right for RAF Dark Green of any era. For WWII, Humbrol 116 or 163 will put you in the ballpark at least. I seem to recall both HB1 and HX1 from the Humbrol Authentic range changing from dark yellow-olives to more bluish shades. Joseph Edited May 31, 2009 by JosephLalor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Hi there,I have a question regarding the Dark Green colours used by the RAF during WW2 and beyond. Did the Dark Green change as the war progressed as Humbrol's 30 seems to be 'greener' than their 163? It also seems that the Xtracrylix RAF Dark Green is the same darker shade as Humbrol's 163 Is this an illusion to my ageing eyesight or were there two different shades? Thanks, Tony The RAF Museum guide British Aviation Colours of WWII only has one Dark Green paint chip but bear in mind there was probably more than one manufacturer and the formulation may have changed due to shortages or better materials being found. For instance Paul Lucas in 'RAF Fighters UK based 1945-50' quotes stores numbers for both cellulose and synthetic versions of all camouflage colours. He also gives only one BS381 and FS595 equivalent for Dark Green for the period 1930 to date lasting through a number of BS381 updates, so it appears only one official shade existed. The primer used, age and weathering will play a part. American aircraft often came in US equivalents to RAF colours as well. So which model paint is right ? Well, get in your Tardis, track down the exact aircraft you want to model on the day you wish to represent and get a paint chip. Preserve it well then deal with the thorny topic of 'scale colour' and you'll have something to match to. Me, I'll use whatever I feel like on the day - usually Xtracrylix but if I want a more robust finish and can face the additional hassle of cleaning up the airbrush then Xtracolour. In the past I've also used Humbrol and Tamiya but a gloss finish from the outset seems easier. Doubtless I'll now have the 'experts' telling me unless I use some almost unattainable paint I'm wrong but until my modelling skills meet the gold standard a paint shade that's a tad off ain't going to worry me. PS - Definition of an expert - an 'ex' is a has-been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure ! Fortunately not true for many of the amazing models seen on this forum, how they do it I'll never even know, let alone emulate them. Edited May 31, 2009 by rossm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin S-K Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Tony, Your eyes are not deceiving you, and you have opened a can of worms....... First a quote, "Dark green, Introduced in 1936, Dark Green was used as part of the disruptive camouflage pattern on the upper surfaces of both day and night fighter schemes. Like Medium Sea Grey, it's continuing use in the post war night fighter scheme meant that it was included in the Ministry of Supply colour range as aircraft finish No 7. In 1964 Aircraft finish No7 was included in BS 381c as 641 Dark Green. This number was something of an error which does not appear to have been corrected until the 1988 edition when the number was changed to No 241. Colour matched by BS 381c no 241 Dark Green and FS 595B 34079.".....Clear huh. Having said that, appearances can be deceptive, during those early years different manufacturers made the paint, in different countries using supposedly the same references and materials. But obviously you got differences between them. Also depended what kind of paint it was, even in wartime their was Cellulose(DTD 751-676) and Synthetic paints(DTD 314-202), let alone the modern paints....... Then there is the primer put on the airframe before painting....Universal Primer DTD 63, 260, 314, 754, 768 and 769. Yellow Primer DTD 911, Priming coat for Magnesium Alloys, Dope(tautening), Transparent DTD 751, Red DTD 752 and 753, Clear DTD 753, etc, etc... They all made a difference to the paints appearance.... Matt, Semi gloss or gloss finish....... let alone in years gone by you paint two different aircraft with the same paint on different days and get two different looking Greens.....(Temperature and Humidity affecting them) Only in recent years that you get aircraft painted in Temperature and humidity controlled facilities. Let alone fading in sunlight........ Let alone age of painted aircraft...... So having 'muddied' the waters nicely.... I leave you with these links, http://www.e-paint.co.uk/BS381%20Colourchart.asp http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colour_Guide/airdiv_clr.html http://scale-models.nl/Colour_Charts.aspx?...ol_colour_chart http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/colourc...2%20Colours.pdf http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/s...orcharts_fs.htm Personally 116 and 163 are good for me. I tend to mix paint to a photo... hope this helps. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The first Hornby issued Humbrol chart had 30 cross-referenced as BS381c 241. Could well be that's what is in more recent Humbrol pots, and be why Airfix still refer to 30 as a good match. Historically the actual shade of Humbrol 30 changed with the weather! John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) And I thought that it would be a simple question Thanks all! Edited May 31, 2009 by Tony C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 And I thought that it would be a simple question Thanks all! Nothing about color before the advent of color photography (or after it, even!) is ever simple. That's why the Mods are always watching these threads in case the "infallible" turn up to brow beat the rest of us into submission to their will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin S-K Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Tony, That will teach you..... I was surprised there was three further replies between me starting my response and finishing it....... Just please do not ask about PRU Pink or Mauve, the hole will just get deeper.... Hey use the paint you are happy with. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I'm watching this one with interest I asked the very same question a few years back on a certain website run by a nice, balding, Australian gentleman. My perception has always been that the wartime green was just that green whereas the aircraft I was working at the time were more olive in hue, I guess the difference is I saw the WWII green as being more of a blue green whilst I saw the current green as being more of a brown green. I got shot down by the colour police... Whilst the surface the finish will make a difference in the long run (because of differential weathering etc), in my experience the painters and dopers would always try to achieve a uniform finish. This means there should be little variation in an aircraft fresh out of the paint shop/MU. Another thing to take into account is that very few wartime aircraft would have lasted long enough to weather appreciably (there are of course always execeptions). Don't get me started on pre-shading!! Regards Wez 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Given that every model paint manufacturer has their own differing version WWII RAF Dark Green, its not hard to imagine that, under the difficulties of wartime conditions, the same thing happened with the various suppliers making the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Rogers Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Not sure which is the 'right' one to use, but personally I find Humbrol 30 to be just too...well green to look right, and 163 to be just about right. Remember, there is no wrong answer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colour_Guide/airdiv_clr.html Thanks, Colin, I've been trying to relocate that site for ages. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I have understood for a long time that the wartime colour was more an olive than a green, but it does seem from photographs (and after making all due allowance) that some batches faded to a brown and others to a green: whether this was a matter of the supplier or a change in available pigments is unknown to me, but I suspect it was an artifact of the fading rather than the fresh colour. It certainly is untrue that the colour has remained constant since. Within my personal experience I saw the colour change between the Jaguar fleet and the Tornado fleet, as painted at Warton. The Jaguar colour was a very dark slightly olive green, the Tornado colour considerably lighter and greener. This was also visible as a change between the Tornado prototypes and the production aircraft, and could be seen on visiting RAF aircraft of other types. This change was also visible walking around preserved aircraft in museums during the 1980s and later. Those earlier aircraft that had not been repainted faded to a chocolate brown, whereas newer types or repainted examples faded to a virulent (and unattractive) green. I entirely agree that the one colour which does not match RAF Dark Green is Humbrol 30, and as far as I can tell it never did. The original (high quality) Humbrol Authentics presented a much more olive colour, a personal modeling epiphany. Edited May 31, 2009 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don McIntyre Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Being a fan of Ian Huntley, perhaps I'm a bit biased against Humbrol. I remember reading years ago, an article he did on model paints and he was very disparaging of Humbrol and their lack of quality control as far as accuracy of colors went. If I'm doing a British-built/camouflaged aircraft, I tend to go with Xtracolour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Buck Turgidson Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Let us not be too hard shall we? At least Hu30 is the best, most authentic match for Soviet Armour Green. Why? Just like the real thing, no two batches are alike. How much more realistic can you get? PS I am serious. Really I am... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hey use the paint you are happy with.Colin That's what I tend to do and use either Humbrol 163 or Xtracrylix RAF Dark Green. I try not to be too overly bothered about pinpoint accuracy but have several pots of H30 and seem to remember from my early days that this was the colour called out in the instructions for the Dark Green/Dark Earth RAF colour schemes but have never really investigated if this was Humbrol's interpretation or if in fact, there was an official difference between the two shades, hence the reason behind my question. Thanks for all the answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gibson Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Hi there,I have a question regarding the Dark Green colours used by the RAF during WW2 and beyond. Thanks, Tony Ayup Tony, I go for 163 or 116. The extracolor is good if you have the time to wait for it to dry. The Tamiya mix is also very close to 116. The Tamiya mix is XF58:1 part + XF62:5 parts. Dave Edited June 1, 2009 by Dave Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin S-K Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Tony, Glad your happy. Maybe now I can sleep better not dreaming about various colours and shades.................................................................... Until PRU Blue/Pink and mauve crop up, again....! Now was it light aircraft grey or medium sea grey I need for that Canberra PR9..? Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 After the various pre-emptive warning strikes from the "paint it whatever colour you like" brigade () I wouldn't dare say anything about the paint chemistry of RAF Dark Green but in olden times Ray Rimell used to advocate adding a dash of red to the Humbrol Authentics RAF Dark Green to produce the requisite slightly more olive hue. I'm sure that will also work with Humbrol 30, 116 and 163. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 One of the more interesting pieces of info I found was a Defence Standard relating to ARTF, which stated, amongst other things, that the pigment composition of colour was un-important, so long as the final colour matched the standard. So different manufacturers will use different pigments whcih may fade differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Exactly so. Even where pigment formulae are suggested as specification they are often remarkably imprecise. There is also the question of the quality of the pigments and the combined chemical effects of binder and additives. A little bit of red is still a good idea though . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasweir Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I think HU30 is a bit too light so always use xtracrylic RAF Dark Green with its 15min drying time! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Rogers Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Exactly so. Even where pigment formulae are suggested as specification they are often remarkably imprecise. There is also the question of the quality of the pigments and the combined chemical effects of binder and additives. A little bit of red is still a good idea though . . Add a bit of Red...sounds interesting, certainly worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robvulcan Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 ive long been facinated by this, and ive seen many variations of greens on raf aircraft, and greys for that matter, even when there are 2 planes of the same type in the photo they can be different colours, this is good as it provides more personality for your planes and variety. i use hu66 for raf post war planes its very deep looks brown looks green looks blacky grey in different lights and looks right for a lot, i use hu163 too but i find this is looking much greener than it used too, i also use 116, 75 and 91, i too use xtracylix now and there ollive drab , xa1111, xa1112, and their british deep bronze green. tamiya olive drab is a great colour too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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