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Hawker Demons


Christopher

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I would not however rule out it being one aircraft that has been "bulled up" for display purposes, with the remainder of the unit in dull normality.

Just to add something else to the mix, the date on the back of the photo of the 'mauve' Wapiti is 1935, so perhaps it was 'bulled up' for the Empire Air Day at Usworth on May 25 1935? It was also King George V's Jubilee on May 6th that year, so perhaps a special celebration?

Just a thought!

Simon

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Hi Robert

Thank you for ploughing this ever deepening furrow. I think that you have given us quite a bit here and the Runciman correspondence nicely proves the point (no pun intended) of the vertical 'fighter' Arrow. I had noticed the unique vertical arrow first on some Mike Keep drawings in Scale Aircraft Modelling of 1993. As to the cheatlines as I said I will keep an open mind and flight coloured numbers were quite common which again fits with the model having red wheel discs and numbers. So is the Lion rampant part of the county coat of arms?

Regards

John

Hi John and Graham,

Durham Coat of Arms...i'll leave that one. Suffice to say the Coat of Arms of the Prince Bishops has four rampant lions and 607 Squadron'r lion is similar but only one rear leg showing. All other Durham coats of Arms seem to originate from around the 50s/60s. I had a quick look at Northumberland and just as quickly closed it. One of the Prince Bishops was Percy of the Northumberland family who had a ...rampant lion!

The Wapiti's: J 9869? was a drab colour. K 1376 force landed at Usworth, Carr-Ellison, when part of the u/c fell off was glossy, K 1378 was gloss while K 1150, flown by Jim Vick looks drab but sported what looks like large fin stripes. So, a bit of a collection really.

I am unsure about what you mean about Runciman. It was his squadron, he was the boss maybe a bit unlike RAF Squadrons it was up to him to pick the squadron badge, no -one else was involved. His letters were passed on to Newcastle University by a private source. It would appear that the first one at least is missing as this showed a design. This was when the Herald from the College of Arms pointed out that he could not have 'UP'. All official heraldic devices have to be passed by the College of Arms. This was why the letters are so important, they are the only ones although there may still be others in private hands somewhere. The Ministry had no dealings in that.

I think I know the photos, I gave quite a few to David English and he supplied me with a few.

: mainly the one's in flight were mine, the crashed one's his. My dealings were mainly with the families of the 'newer' generation dating from the Demon days although John Sample had a few Wapiti pics.

Best Wishes.

Robert.

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This is BS381 1930

PICT0003.jpg

and this is Eau du Nil compared to a range of Sky acrylic paints:

PICT0007.jpg

Humbrol actually did Eau de Nil in their original gloss enamel range, colour no 1. It resurfaced in the acrylic range a few years back. CompuColor had it too. The colour reminds me of my Grandparent's bathroom!

John

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I feel Runciman must be accepted as definitive but if there is no statement as to why the colours were chosen we are left with speculation. The badge though strikes me as more like a Griffin, not a Lion which would rather negate the link to the Prince Bishops as well. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that we cannot link the Squadron colours to either the Prince Bishops or Palatinate Purple.

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Not a griffon, in that the wings are only attached to the feet not the main body. Don't griffons have (had?) beaked faces? A winged lion is a fairly obvious device for a military flying unit. Winged feet can also be considered as a link to Hermes/Mercury, and hence speed. It might well originate in local historical coats of arms but heraldic use of the lion is rather too widespread to prove such. My school badge was a shield with four rampant lions, colours maroon and gold - that's almost purple, but I'm not suggesting a link between my school and the squadron, though Ryhope is only a few miles from Usworth.....

The Percy family is generally linked to Northumberland rather than (strictly) Durham, though I suspect the varied historical secular/episcopal divisions weren't terribly high in the squadron's thoughts.

My only qualification over the Runciman letters is that single historical sources should always be regarded with a little care. Lacking independent confirmation and full knowledge of the context, we may be reading into them what we want to see. Nothing more, and it seems straightforward enough in this case.

If they'd only chosen the county colours, and the Lambton Worm for their badge (coiled around Penshaw Hill?) we'd have had nothing to discuss.

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We are not looking at the same badge. I am looking at the one on Robert's website of 607 squadron which shows a mauve animal. It appears to have wings attached to the body and a beak. On the RAF website this has become the badge that you describe and the colours have changed.

Edited by Christopher
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I have followed this thread with utmost fascination as it demonstrates that their is very little that can be considered as standard.

I have been assembling images of 607 squadron for about the last 15 years.

During this time I have corresponded with Robert, Graham, Simon and others as it is the enlightened view of the squadron association that all collected material should see the light of day.

I just shows to me that you can always learn something new.

I also have a number of images which show non standard markings on Hurricanes and Spitfires.

If you wish I will start a new thread for these

Edited by Dave Charles
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We are not looking at the same badge. I am looking at the one on Robert's website of 607 squadron which shows a mauve animal. It appears to have wings attached to the body and a beak. On the RAF website this has become the badge that you describe and the colours have changed.

Indeed not. In Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the RAF we have the badge shown as a winged lion with wings on the body and feet. No beak, but an extended tongue (it is a very small detail!) It is described as a winged lion salient, the hind legs also winged, and as being the official authorisation of an unofficial badge in use by the squadron.

The (body) wings can be seen clearly in pictures of the Spitfire Mk.22 in the Cooper Air Race colours. And indeed on the tail of Wapiti. No doubt elsewhere.

I was told that the badge on the RAF website was a recent creation - I presumed having the same origins as the one on the entrance wall at the NE Aircraft Museum. At the museum I queried the colour but was told quite definitely "It's purple!"

I do have a larger print - source www.rafmarham.co.uk/gallery/crests-600/607sqn600.jpg. This link no longer appears to be valid. The size however does permit to to suggest that the curved open mouth of the lion may have be mistaken for a beak. It is a lion's head with mane, not a bird's head as might be implied by the beak. I still don't think it is a griffon, but I don't know what the heraldic term might imply.

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Not a griffon, in that the wings are only attached to the feet not the main body. Don't griffons have (had?) beaked faces? A winged lion is a fairly obvious device for a military flying unit. Winged feet can also be considered as a link to Hermes/Mercury, and hence speed. It might well originate in local historical coats of arms but heraldic use of the lion is rather too widespread to prove such. My school badge was a shield with four rampant lions, colours maroon and gold - that's almost purple, but I'm not suggesting a link between my school and the squadron, though Ryhope is only a few miles from Usworth.....

The Percy family is generally linked to Northumberland rather than (strictly) Durham, though I suspect the varied historical secular/episcopal divisions weren't terribly high in the squadron's thoughts.

My only qualification over the Runciman letters is that single historical sources should always be regarded with a little care. Lacking independent confirmation and full knowledge of the context, we may be reading into them what we want to see. Nothing more, and it seems straightforward enough in this case.

If they'd only chosen the county colours, and the Lambton Worm for their badge (coiled around Penshaw Hill?) we'd have had nothing to discuss.

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Firstly apologies to Dave who's name is CHARLES and not English. My old heraldic brain is clicking back and of course heraldic devices mainly originate from Norman times. The Percy family had a big hold in Durham at one time. To those into genealogy/local history it came as a surprise in the 80s to learn that parts of Northumberland as far north as Norham came under the Bishopric of Durham as late as 1900: probably still do.

The Heraldic device was in colour on the Wapiti's as can be seen. Officially, however, it seemed to have none. Graham, The device shown is a copy of the original from the College of Heralds and hangs in the Library at RAF Cranwell. It should be here

badge.jpg

the jargon is on the bottom of it: Rampant Winged Lion Salient. The colour badges for the squadron appear to have originated around WW2 maybe slightly before and, as far as I can see, are modern versions.

The only way I could describe Runciman's role in 607 is that it has similarites to the Army/Officer days of the Victorian age when Commanding Officers bought their Regiments. I'm not suggesting he bought his way in but, in reality the only experience he had was flying, he had no connections with the RAF. Everything about the squadron was carried out on his say-so. The only documents to the squadron crest were his. I don't want to pull the man down in any way, he was a good thing for the squadron in many ways and fought hard for the groundcrews rights within the squadron in particular: the above is just the best way I can describe his role.

I think Simon may have a very valid point there, the Kings Jubilee. Christopher, if you want information on Runciman I can recommend: 'Rosamond Lehmann: A Life' by S. Hastings, Rosamond Lehmann was his first wife, he married twice.

Best Wishes.

Robert.

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Thank you. The one I have is a very close match but the animal is generally bluer, with a pale blue body. This could be due to printing limitations as well as copying errors (like Chinese whispers).

Re the retention of the powers of the Bishop of Durham: the currently popular folk group Rachel Unthank and The Winterset perform a song "Fareweel Regality". This is based on the transfer of the powers of the Bishop of Durham in the Hexham area to Northumbria Council, perhaps 100 years ago? (The song is not contemporary to the events.) I believe that marked the end of the secular powers of the Bishopric.

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I think Simon may have a very valid point there, the Kings Jubilee.

I've a few versions, courtesy of Dave Charles, of photo of a Wapiti photo taken at the 1935 Empire Air Day - the one with the kids being shown the cockpit, taken from the port rear 3/4 - and it shows the glossy upper decking, coloured '607' on the fuselage side and pale 'cheatline' clearly. It also shows a badge on the tail, which seems to be a squadron leader's flag, and not a lion salient, just to add to the mix!

I'd post it on here but I think it's a Sunderland Echo photo, so don't want to infringe copyright.

Simon

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I've a few versions, courtesy of Dave Charles, of photo of a Wapiti photo taken at the 1935 Empire Air Day - the one with the kids being shown the cockpit, taken from the port rear 3/4 - and it shows the glossy upper decking, coloured '607' on the fuselage side and pale 'cheatline' clearly. It also shows a badge on the tail, which seems to be a squadron leader's flag, and not a lion salient, just to add to the mix!

I'd post it on here but I think it's a Sunderland Echo photo, so don't want to infringe copyright.

Simon

Hi Simon,

This one, comes from my book courtesy of 607 Squadron Association. Only difference is the tail's missing.

wapiti.jpg

Best Wishes.

Robert.

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John,

Going back to post 27 I can add somrthing to the 608 squadron Wapiti painting. It was by A.M. Alderson. I also have a copy of a photograph that I think was used for reference. There is also another painting by A.M. Alderson of an Avro 504

I will try and scan this at the weekend along with a few 608 Demon potographs that I have.

These all came from the widow of Ernest Sockett who was from Marske and had a condiserable interest in local aviation.

Amongst these items is a collection of slides of 608 aircraft which I do not have the faclity to convert to electronic format.

If anyone can help I will gladly make them available

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John,

Going back to post 27 I can add somrthing to the 608 squadron Wapiti painting. It was by A.M. Alderson. I also have a copy of a photograph that I think was used for reference. There is also another painting by A.M. Alderson of an Avro 504

I will try and scan this at the weekend along with a few 608 Demon potographs that I have.

These all came from the widow of Ernest Sockett who was from Marske and had a condiserable interest in local aviation.

Amongst these items is a collection of slides of 608 aircraft which I do not have the faclity to convert to electronic format.

If anyone can help I will gladly make them available

David

I had intended posting earlier but I have been a bit busy with work. Interesting re the pictures. If I can help with the slides I have a slide scanner then please PM me and I will get back to you after the weekend.

Regards

John

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  • 3 weeks later...

I thought I'd open this topic up again (sorry!). I'm doing some homemade decals for a 1/72 607 Sqn Demon, and the curse of interpreting black and white photos taken with different film types has struck.

Which bits are mauve and which are stone on the fuselage markings? Same goes for the wing markings too. Seems a simple enough question, but bearing in mind the pitfalls of assuming yellow is light and mauve is dark on B&W photos...

demon_sample.jpg

So, which one is right? The mauve colour is an educated guess, and stone is yellow (isn't it?). And the tail marking it seems, from this very interesting and informative discussion, is (a shade of?) mauve too.

Regards

Simon

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Before starting on 607, note that the latest Flypast has an article on 608 Sw, including a demon colour profile and b+w photos.

Now to business. The mauve is shown as the upper colour in Mushroom's Hawker Hart Family: strictly, as leading as it shows the wing. The marking is also shown with too short a chord, compare with the photo on page 25, which shows the lighter colour to be uppermost/leading. This is almost certainly on orthochromatic film, with the red of the roundel appearing much darker than the blue. So would Stone or mauve look darker on ortho film?

Photos in Robert's book show both light and dark uppermost: an adjacent photo of the Hart Trainer shows how dark the yellow can appear on ortho film. (As the unit had three Flights, I don't think this is a case of A and B Flights playing games - or was C Flight restricted to the training role? Robert?)

Mike Keep's profile from SAM shows mauve uppermost/leading.

Photos in Aeroplane Monthly show the darker colour uppermost - again, the red is darker than the blue in the roundel

At the risk of postwar practice being different to prewar, I'll add that Roger Lindsay refers to the postwar colours as "deep mauve and stone", and photos again show the lighter colour to the top. This is very unlikely to be ortho film. I'm sorry I hadn't found this reference earlier in the discussion - I note that Robert describes the prewar colour as "lighter". The Modeldecal Vampire transfer sheet has the yellow uppermost, presumably relying upon Roger's eye-witness account and the appearance in photographs.

I've been searching through Model Aircraft Monthly for the issue that reproduced the RAuxAF squadron colours, unsuccessfully. I have been told which issue they were in, but stupidly failed to make a reference and now cannot find them. Perhaps it is even longer ago than I recall......They can also be found in Peter Lewis 1950's book of RAF Squadron histories - but no, I don't have that either.

Stone is slightly more of a mustard colour than the purer yellow you show. See the attached

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bsc1931wm_1.htm

Sorry this isn't of greater help: I do admire your effort in producing these markings and can only say I'd be deeply grateful is you could run off copies for me to: obviously I'd be more than willing to repay your costs.

Edited by Graham Boak
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sqds.jpg

Here is the relevant bit of the Peter Lewis book. Note the murky colour of the 'stone' is different from the yellow in e.g. the 609 Sqdn marking so is not just down to the age of the book

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Thanks for the input Graham.

Firstly, I did a quick search of the back issues section on the SAM Publications website, and there are two issues of MAM with an article on 608 Sqn: Vol. 5/7 May 2008 and Vol. 5/11 November 2008. And the current issue (April 2009) has a feature on Spitfire F.22 and F.24s, which could be useful for my query in the Cold War Section on here about 607's Spitfire RAN and LA code colours...

Secondly, I assume it's 'mid stone' for the 607 markings? Looks a bit dull:

demon-sample2.jpg

But then again it's a bit more tasteful than the yellow! Also makes the mauve look a tiny bit bright now too...

Here's how it looks converted to black and white:

demon-sample2b.jpg

Not a reliable method of interpreting black and white photos as you said, but adds to the discussion a bit!

Regards

Simon

PS - don't get me started on 607's Harvard colour schemes - camouflage with yellow panels, overall silver, silver with yellow bands, overall yellow... :hypnotised:

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OOOer, I'm just going to throw a spanner into my post above - the Peter Lewis book also has a page of drawings for 1922-36 which do not show 608 Sqdn but the 604 Sqdn ones are inverted compared to the 1946-59 version.

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sqds.jpg

Here is the relevant bit of the Peter Lewis book. Note the murky colour of the 'stone' is different from the yellow in e.g. the 609 Sqdn marking so is not just down to the age of the book

Thanks for that Ross. I saw that Graham mentioned the Modeldecal markings for the Vampire, and there's the Xtradecal markings for the Meteor T.7, both of which are fairly bright yellow. Mind you that mauve on the 607 markings looks very peculiar indeed - more of a 'crushed strawberry' colour!

Simon

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