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Hawker Demons


Christopher

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OK John, that hooked me! I am very interested in 607 Sq, but had assumed there was nothing unusual about their Wapitis so had not come in. The "mauve" could readily be mistaken for the more usual Nivo in b+w photos but I don't recall any stripe. Can you let us see this? Particularly what colour this Mauve is? My personal belief is that it is Durham University's Palatine Purple - so there's a hostage to fortune if you have an example to compare!

I've recently been corresponding with two historians specialising in 607 - I'm sure they'd love to see this too.

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OK John, that hooked me! I am very interested in 607 Sq, but had assumed there was nothing unusual about their Wapitis so had not come in. The "mauve" could readily be mistaken for the more usual Nivo in b+w photos but I don't recall any stripe. Can you let us see this? Particularly what colour this Mauve is? My personal belief is that it is Durham University's Palatine Purple - so there's a hostage to fortune if you have an example to compare!

I've recently been corresponding with two historians specialising in 607 - I'm sure they'd love to see this too.

Graham

These are scans of the remaining pictures I have dealing with the Wapiti's. The 608 a/c is again supported by a painting of which the origins and provenance I have no idea. The ten foot prop Maurice refers too is obviously associated with the ungeared engines.

For the 607 a/c with it's gloss Mauve decking I find your surmise about the Palatine Purple (the Prince Bishops?) very interesting. Here for debate are the photos which are again Maurice's interpretation of what he saw. He put the wrong serial on it as K1145 was a 607 a/c and K1245 was a Moth and that's his correction on the reverse of the photo.

John

File041.jpg

File042.jpg

File043.jpg

File044.jpg

File045.jpg

File046.jpg

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John

The colour on the Wapiti appears very dark on my monitor. In fact it appears too dark for a mauve but your correspondent was there. I'm not surprised at the yellow/stone cheatline, after all 607s Demon's triangles were mauve and stone. As for the Wapiti painting the style is definitely 1930s so I would say that there is a reasonable likelihood that it is contemporary.

On a side note I am always surprised that no-one does any decals for 607 Squadron's Demons. They would make a very attractive aircraft.

Christopher

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John

The colour on the Wapiti appears very dark on my monitor. In fact it appears too dark for a mauve but your correspondent was there. I'm not surprised at the yellow/stone cheatline, after all 607s Demon's triangles were mauve and stone. As for the Wapiti painting the style is definitely 1930s so I would say that there is a reasonable likelihood that it is contemporary.

On a side note I am always surprised that no-one does any decals for 607 Squadron's Demons. They would make a very attractive aircraft.

Christopher

On the original photo it's just possible to make out a very deep purple. Again we have the name Mauve. (Dark mauve decking) Now I always took Mauve to be a more reddish purple. But names apart it's the colour that Maurice has painted the actual model which must be viewed as the criterion. I feel it has to be close to what he saw and not what he called it and I feel Graham's Palatine Purple has got to have some signifigance due to the Sqn's origin and the heraldry of the area. I know these are photos of someones models but I view them as a chance window to actual events.

John

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Mauve is an awkward colour. I agree with John in seeing it as a reddish purple - I suspect this is from crayons at school - but the Methuen book quotes it as being nearer indigo. Palatinate Purple is a reddish purple, and much as 607's mauve has been represented in the past - the colour pages in the 1950s Peter Lewis book on RAF Squadrons comes to mind. Some years ago there was a colour picture published of RAuxAF Vampires - the Edinburgh unit, IIRR - and in the background was a 607 Meteor trainer. Although too small for clarity, the triangles were certainly reddish not blue.

If you want to see Palatinate Purple, look up Durham University on the net, as it is used for a backdrop for their sites. The actual County colours are blue and yellow (or blue and gold) as can be seen in the County Cricket Club colours, and also in the livery of the Prince Bishop's Men, an organisation (if that's the right word) of Live Action Role Players. These are reportedly (and I've no reason to doubt) the colours of the original Prince Bishops' livery. So 607 could have been expected to use blue and yellow.......

The colour on Maurice's model is much darker than PP. The photographs I have do not definitely show a stone band, but can be interpreted that way. The photos show the top colour to be dark, too dark for NIVO I think. I had assumed black but perhaps it is not dark enough for that. On the photo film of the time red comes out dark so PP cannot be ruled out on those grounds.

Thank you very much for the photo, even though I don't think it quite settles the point. Much matter for thought.

PS Interesting that he distinguishes between Dark Mauve on the top of the fuselage and Mauve for the lion, so perhaps the top colour was not intended to be the usual squadron colour? And is that also the mauve on the squadron number or red?

Edited by Graham Boak
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Mauve is an awkward colour. I agree with John in seeing it as a reddish purple - I suspect this is from crayons at school - but the Methuen book quotes it as being nearer indigo. Palatinate Purple is a reddish purple, and much as 607's mauve has been represented in the past - the colour pages in the 1950s Peter Lewis book on RAF Squadrons comes to mind. Some years ago there was a colour picture published of RAuxAF Vampires - the Edinburgh unit, IIRR - and in the background was a 607 Meteor trainer. Although too small for clarity, the triangles were certainly reddish not blue.

If you want to see Palatinate Purple, look up Durham University on the net, as it is used for a backdrop for their sites. The actual County colours are blue and yellow (or blue and gold) as can be seen in the County Cricket Club colours, and also in the livery of the Prince Bishop's Men, an organisation (if that's the right word) of Live Action Role Players. These are reportedly (and I've no reason to doubt) the colours of the original Prince Bishops' livery. So 607 could have been expected to use blue and yellow.......

The colour on Maurice's model is much darker than PP. The photographs I have do not definitely show a stone band, but can be interpreted that way. The photos show the top colour to be dark, too dark for NIVO I think. I had assumed black but perhaps it is not dark enough for that. On the photo film of the time red comes out dark so PP cannot be ruled out on those grounds.

Thank you very much for the photo, even though I don't think it quite settles the point. Much matter for thought.

PS Interesting that he distinguishes between Dark Mauve on the top of the fuselage and Mauve for the lion, so perhaps the top colour was not intended to be the usual squadron colour? And is that also the mauve on the squadron number or red?

The fuselage numbers (under a glass) are outlined Black and are more orange/red and the Lion appears to be the dark Mauve outlined in red. No point in matching the roundel Red as these are (probably) commercial items. I have no more I'm afraid. Like family history we think up the questions too late.

John

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Where did you find this alternative, Christopher? I shall put my Durham-based daughter onto the track.

The link between purple and bishops is understandable enough, as is the substitution of Stone for gold. If we take this route, there remains the confusion between mauve and purple, and the use of a dark "mauve" when the Palatinate Purple is a redder shade.

Perhaps we are just reading too much into it, and people just weren't that bothered with differences in shade?

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Where did you find this alternative, Christopher? I shall put my Durham-based daughter onto the track.

The link between purple and bishops is understandable enough, as is the substitution of Stone for gold. If we take this route, there remains the confusion between mauve and purple, and the use of a dark "mauve" when the Palatinate Purple is a redder shade.

Perhaps we are just reading too much into it, and people just weren't that bothered with differences in shade?

Is it possible (besides reading too much into the colour) that we do have two distict colours. 1. The Palatine Purple of the University and the Royal Purple of the Prince Bishops. My knowledge is a bit rusty on this , but off the top of my head, wasn't the Bishop a brother of the King (Edward?)and so entitled to wear the (dark) Royal Purple. The Dark "Mauve" which Maurice saw (and modelled) is nearer to the Royal colour.

John

Edited by John Aero
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Hugh Pudsey, one of the most significant Prince Bishops, was a nephew of Stephen, but I don't know (my ignorance, perhaps) of any such link to Edward I. They ran more of a parallel kingdom (though somewhat smaller!) and so may have claimed the royal purple because of this, but that's just supposition. I suspect this is a false lead.

From a bit more digging, I can confirm that the County colours of blue and yellow are based on the colours of the See of Durham. According to Wikipedia, the blue is known as Palatinate Blue, whereas Palatinate Purple is linked to the university. It is shown as a dark reddish colour, not as dark as the model, and described as a variety of Violet, whereas Mauve is shown to be much paler. I suspect that these are areas where Wikipedia can be trusted. It does quote colour matches,and Palatinate Purple is Pantone 266, RGB 104, 40, 96

Judging from his current photo, the ruling Lord Bishop wears something closer to the palatinate purple than the royal. At least in less formal wear. However, I would describe this as normal for bishops, as others wear the same, known as Episcopal Purple, and suspect this may be the real origin of the Durham colour. The University was founded by Bishop William van Mildert. I have not yet found a definition of Episcopal purple.

Which has taken us a little far from Demons!

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Hugh Pudsey, one of the most significant Prince Bishops, was a nephew of Stephen, but I don't know (my ignorance, perhaps) of any such link to Edward I. They ran more of a parallel kingdom (though somewhat smaller!) and so may have claimed the royal purple because of this, but that's just supposition. I suspect this is a false lead.

From a bit more digging, I can confirm that the County colours of blue and yellow are based on the colours of the See of Durham. According to Wikipedia, the blue is known as Palatinate Blue, whereas Palatinate Purple is linked to the university. It is shown as a dark reddish colour, not as dark as the model, and described as a variety of Violet, whereas Mauve is shown to be much paler. I suspect that these are areas where Wikipedia can be trusted. It does quote colour matches,and Palatinate Purple is Pantone 266, RGB 104, 40, 96

Judging from his current photo, the ruling Lord Bishop wears something closer to the palatinate purple than the royal. At least in less formal wear. However, I would describe this as normal for bishops, as others wear the same, known as Episcopal Purple, and suspect this may be the real origin of the Durham colour. The University was founded by Bishop William van Mildert. I have not yet found a definition of Episcopal purple.

Which has taken us a little far from Demons!

I just had a look at Durham Cathederal home page and this is the colour I would favour. http://www.durhamcathedral.co.uk/ Demons and Bishops , my we are wandering into the realms of Dan Brown (Da Vinci code and Angels and Demons).

John

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I just had a look at Durham Cathederal home page and this is the colour I would favour.

Er, which do you mean? I can see four shades, of which the lighter two are what I would have called mauve. Of these, Methuen's mauve (15B5), from the original Perkin's dye that named the colour, is a reasonable match for the less light of these - the one you see at the top and bottom of the menu, or when you select an option. Of the two darker colours in the top right hand corner, I'd say the darkest might be close to the model, and the lighter to PP.

Now had I been designing the website, I'd have used the same hue at different intensities for all these shades, and I suspect that is exactly what we are seeing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatinate_(colour) takes you to Palatinate Purple

http://www.dur.ac.uk/ takes you to Durham University's home page

http://www.durham.anglican.org/people-and-...troduction.aspx allows you to see Episcopal Purple, namely the Bishop's shirt.

Perhaps all slightly more red than the Cathedral's website, if anything.

I think this rambling around the colours has just about convinced me that 607's "mauve" really is the University colour, but with a bit of variation here and there and some loose terminology. Now to convince someone to do transfers for Demons, Meteors and the like.

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I meant the bottom broad band of purple (over written with the words copyright etc) I think something to consider here is that the "paint job" would be carried out by the Sqn and that would mean mixing the non standard colour from the available paints, roundel red, roundel blue, black,white and yellow. All of these "dopes" would be available in station stores and mixed to "yes that looks right" to who so ever called the tune.

John.

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Sorry for the delay in responding Graham. The version I found is on the County Durham Business Directory and is the same as the normal coat except for the background. Another interesting detail I found on wikipedia is for the entry on the Bishops of Durham. This shows a colour bar for the Bishopric as a mauve. Below is a dark blue colour bar labelled Anglican. Whilst the Whapiti's seem to have the darked colour linking them to the university, all reconstructions I have seen of the Demons use the eclesiastical colours and photos I have do seem to indicate a lighter shade.

The Bishop linked most to Edward 1 was Anthony Bek ('the fighting bishop') but he was no relative and his colour was red (not all bishops used purple).

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Graham/ Christopher

Paralell thread.

John

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88907

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply on the other forum, link in yours, I finally got on here.

I can't dispute what your eyewitness saw on the 607 Squadron Wapiti, all I can say is that squadron colours were not in use on 607 until 1937 with the arrival of the Demons. That information came courtesy of Leslie Runciman, 607 CO, in corespondence with the heraldic office in 1936/37. The colour of the squadron badge carried on the aircraft was, more than likely, mauve. However, this colour does not appear on the official copy of the squadron crest, only on the actual aircraft. I have two copies of the original here, one was the original one and the other is the one kept at RAF Cranwell: both show the heraldic device in black and white.

Why the colour on the Wapiti should be dark purple I have no idea. It could have been a personal thing I don't know. However, as I said in the other posting, the cheat line is there but, just on some aircraft: in fact there is only one amongst those I have, taken in 1935, long before squadron colours were granted ie 1936/37.

I hope this helps, if I find anything else I will let you know on here.

Best Wishes.

Robert Dixon.

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Hi John,

Thanks for your reply on the other forum, link in yours, I finally got on here.

I can't dispute what your eyewitness saw on the 607 Squadron Wapiti, all I can say is that squadron colours were not in use on 607 until 1937 with the arrival of the Demons. That information came courtesy of Leslie Runciman, 607 CO, in corespondence with the heraldic office in 1936/37. The colour of the squadron badge carried on the aircraft was, more than likely, mauve. However, this colour does not appear on the official copy of the squadron crest, only on the actual aircraft. I have two copies of the original here, one was the original one and the other is the one kept at RAF Cranwell: both show the heraldic device in black and white.

Why the colour on the Wapiti should be dark purple I have no idea. It could have been a personal thing I don't know. However, as I said in the other posting, the cheat line is there but, just on some aircraft: in fact there is only one amongst those I have, taken in 1935, long before squadron colours were granted ie 1936/37.

I hope this helps, if I find anything else I will let you know on here.

Best Wishes.

Robert Dixon.

Hi Robert

Thanks for coming back on this one. To my current thinking we are looking at two distinct eras that of the Wapitis and then the later Demons. It could be that the Dark purple top deck and Stone cheatline on the Wapiti (for whatever reasons they were chosen) the Purple is not related to later colours. However, the use of Mauve for the Lion rampant badge is I feel, significant as this colour has local area connections and I posit was submitted to the Heralds office (along with Stone (Gold)) for use by the Sqn and coincidental with the arrival of Demons. I feel that Maurice's choice of colour was based on what he saw but his colour name (Dark Mauve) is in error. I attach the following for interest.

Regards

John

File052.jpg

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Hi John

I am of the opinion that there may be mileage in Robert's suggestion that the cheatline was to indicate the flight colour. In the two Wapiti photos Graham sent me both aircraft have cheatlines but to my eyes they appear different. The photograph of the Wapiti in flight also looks to have what could be a dark purple decking (it certainly isn't black).

The Demon's in one of Graham's photos appear to have the fighter squadron arrowhead but it is vertical, not horizontal as it should be. This also appears on the in flight photo on the 607 Squadron webpage. (http://norav.50megs.com/photo2.html).

Christopher

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Hi John

I am of the opinion that there may be mileage in Robert's suggestion that the cheatline was to indicate the flight colour. In the two Wapiti photos Graham sent me both aircraft have cheatlines but to my eyes they appear different. The photograph of the Wapiti in flight also looks to have what could be a dark purple decking (it certainly isn't black).

The Demon's in one of Graham's photos appear to have the fighter squadron arrowhead but it is vertical, not horizontal as it should be. This also appears on the in flight photo on the 607 Squadron webpage. (http://norav.50megs.com/photo2.html).

Christopher

Hi John and Christopher,

I feel a bit stretched here trying to answer two. There can be no doubt that were no squadron colours until at least 1937. As I have said, this comes from official correspondence between Leslie Runciman and the Heraldic Officer at the College of Heralds. In all that corresponce, more than a few letters, there is no mention of where the colours originated ie Prince Bishops, County Durham etc all that appears to have been thought up by people at a later date for their own reasons and appears to be fanciful along with the lack of motto on this squadron: but that's another story.

The colour on the Wapiti's: to be quite honest that model looks the nearest, a sort of dark blue. The colour, whatever it was, was very high gloss therefore, in most pics, even black looks blue due to reflected light etc. The official dark colour, usually matt, was to cut glare but this purpose appears to be defeated.

The arrow badge, as Christopher rightly pointed out, is upright in all the Demon pics I have. K 3800, John Sample's aircraft, carries none in 1937 although it carries the Squadron colours. In a pic of 1938, flown by Will Gore, the same aircraft is still sans badge. Nothing appears to be really consistant.

Back to the Wapiti's: the cheat line may well be Flight colours. There were three, Red, Blue and Yellow. While the yellow is easily seen, the other two, due to tone are not.

The website, mentioned by Christopher is mine, the link doesn't work by the way, as is the sister John Sample site and this is about the nearest you can get to an official 607 Squadron site as no others exist.

I hope all this makes sense but if not just ask away. If it becomes too boring on here my e-mail is on the sites.

Best Wishes.

Robert.

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Hi John

I am of the opinion that there may be mileage in Robert's suggestion that the cheatline was to indicate the flight colour. In the two Wapiti photos Graham sent me both aircraft have cheatlines but to my eyes they appear different. The photograph of the Wapiti in flight also looks to have what could be a dark purple decking (it certainly isn't black).

The Demon's in one of Graham's photos appear to have the fighter squadron arrowhead but it is vertical, not horizontal as it should be. This also appears on the in flight photo on the 607 Squadron webpage. (http://norav.50megs.com/photo2.html).

Christopher

I would say ,no, (my opinion) to the flight coloured cheatline on the grounds that normally flight colours were restricted to prop bosses and wheels but I'll keep a open mind until I see other pictures. Note also the model Wapiti has Red wheels and a stone cheatline. I agree that the cheatline appears darker in the flight photo but I put this down to photographic material and exposure as it appears to be on orthographic fiilm. As for the Arrowhead on the Demon I think it's a case of "well nobody said".

John

Edited by John Aero
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I would say ,no, (my opinion) to the flight coloured cheatline on the grounds that normally flight colours were restricted to prop bosses and wheels but I'll keep a open mind until I see other pictures. Note also the model Wapiti has Red wheels and a stone cheatline. I agree that the cheatline appears darker in the flight photo but I put this down to photographic material and exposure as it appears to be on orthographic fiilm. As for the Arrowhead on the Demon I think it's a case of "well nobody said".

John

Hi John,

Normally I could argue a point however, not on this occasion. The Runciman correspondence is official Squadron correspondence and neither I nor anyone else has the right to change that. If he states there was no official colours prior to 1937 then there was none: that cannot be denied i'm afraid. I only said they 'May' be Flight related. Flight colours were also shown in the colour of the squadron number displayed on the side of the aircraft.

As to the 'Arrow' on the Demons well, Runciman again i'm afraid. In total there was some half dozen letters referring to the Squadron motto, or lack of. It was to be, said Runciman, 'UP'. You can't have 'UP' it's not grammatically right, said the College it has to be 'Upward'. The correspondence ends with: 'UP' it has to be or nothing, the word 'UP' is an in joke within the squadron, 'Upward' would lose the effect and if we can't have 'UP' then there will be none'. And so it was: there is no squadron motto. However, they still had ways of expressing 'UP' ie the arrow points 'UP'. That too is official no matter what you may read elsewhere, it's all there in Runcimans documents which are open to anyone who may care to visit Newcastle. As they say in the newspaper; 'You read it here first' that goes for the above, it has not been published before.

It may not fit in with some of the more romantic, fanciful stuff written about 607 Squadron however, it is the truth. Hard fact is, some don't like the truth. So, sorry, not a 'Nobody said' issue more a demonstration in what we want, we get by fair means or otherwise, 607 Squadron did have their motto but in symbolic form.

Best Wishes.

Robert.

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If John (Walker) is around, IIRC he has an actual 1930s copy of BS381

I do indeed but Mike Starmer has it at the moment - something to do with the colour of pre-War Royal Navy trucks!

John

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Hi John,

Normally I could argue a point however, not on this occasion. The Runciman correspondence is official Squadron correspondence and neither I nor anyone else has the right to change that. If he states there was no official colours prior to 1937 then there was none: that cannot be denied i'm afraid. I only said they 'May' be Flight related. Flight colours were also shown in the colour of the squadron number displayed on the side of the aircraft.

As to the 'Arrow' on the Demons well, Runciman again i'm afraid. In total there was some half dozen letters referring to the Squadron motto, or lack of. It was to be, said Runciman, 'UP'. You can't have 'UP' it's not grammatically right, said the College it has to be 'Upward'. The correspondence ends with: 'UP' it has to be or nothing, the word 'UP' is an in joke within the squadron, 'Upward' would lose the effect and if we can't have 'UP' then there will be none'. And so it was: there is no squadron motto. However, they still had ways of expressing 'UP' ie the arrow points 'UP'. That too is official no matter what you may read elsewhere, it's all there in Runcimans documents which are open to anyone who may care to visit Newcastle. As they say in the newspaper; 'You read it here first' that goes for the above, it has not been published before.

It may not fit in with some of the more romantic, fanciful stuff written about 607 Squadron however, it is the truth. Hard fact is, some don't like the truth. So, sorry, not a 'Nobody said' issue more a demonstration in what we want, we get by fair means or otherwise, 607 Squadron did have their motto but in symbolic form.

Best Wishes.

Robert.

Hi Robert

Thank you for ploughing this ever deepening furrow. I think that you have given us quite a bit here and the Runciman correspondence nicely proves the point (no pun intended) of the vertical 'fighter' Arrow. I had noticed the unique vertical arrow first on some Mike Keep drawings in Scale Aircraft Modelling of 1993. As to the cheatlines as I said I will keep an open mind and flight coloured numbers were quite common which again fits with the model having red wheel discs and numbers. So is the Lion rampant part of the county coat of arms?

Regards

John

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I'd better point out that the photographs mentioned are not mine, I obtained them from David Charles, and am merely acting as a go-between. Robert: do you wish me to send them to you, so that you know precisely which photos we are discussing? I'm sure you will have seen them already.

As the initiator of the reference to Palatinate Purple, this was purely a hypothesis that I entirely agree does not originate in any document, official or otherwise. This was neither suggested nor intended. The problem is that the word "mauve" has more than one interpretation (as shown by the discussion) when it comes to colour matching, and the hope was to pin it down a little more clearly. There remains the reasons behind the choice of Mauve and Stone, which have never been made clear in any published document that I've seen - it seems you (Robert) can add no more. Perhaps you can however say whether the first mention was in a letter from Runciman to the Ministry, or vice versa? Note that these are not the normal primary colours used by other squadrons, so there must be some story behind their choice. In which case we are free to make such suggestions, and one with a local link seems only sensible - it can be disproved by more evidence of the actual colours. The Wapiti model was seen as additional evidence for an alternative.

I must admit being a little surprised that you place quite so much emphasis on Runciman's letters: indeed we must accept them at face value in the lack of other evidence. However, if the unit was indeed painting one or more of their aircraft in colours that can be described as Deep Mauve and Stone, then perhaps the link goes back before this correspondence, whether they had been accepted as "squadron colours" or not. Otherwise it is a quite remarkable coincidence.

re the Wapiti: I feel that the gloss/matt appearance is probably due to the difference between an operational requirement and the need to keep aircraft "spick and span" in the peacetime military services. I would not however rule out it being one aircraft that has been "bulled up" for display purposes, with the remainder of the unit in dull normality.

Robert's comment about the squadron number in flight colours is interesting, bearing in mind that the 608 Sq aircraft that started this was in black. I suggest that the flying shot I passed around shows blue, as the wheels and number appear to match the roundel, and are much lighter than the red which appears dark in the photo (ortho film?).

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