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Hawker Demons


Christopher

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I'm trying to track down photos of Hawker Demons from 608 (North Riding) Squadron. The RAF site shows them in a rather fetching scheme of interlocking dark blue and light blue triangles but I've never seen them in this scheme. Does anyone know of any references apart from the RAF website?

Many thanks in advance.

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There's an illustration (no photo, though) in "On Silver Wings," by Alec Lumsden and Owen Thetford, but the colour scheme is noted as light turquoise and black triangles.

Edgar

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On their Vampires postwar, 608's squadron colours were blue and red, diagonally divided by a green band. There has been discussion in Model Aircraft Monthly fairly recently as to the correct colour for the band. The question was raised as to why the postwar colours differed from the prewar blue and black. Answer came there none.

To me, David's photo looks as though it was on ortho film, making reds look dark and blues lighter. certainly the darkness of the triangles would seem to rule out a blue, or at least anything other than a very dark blue - compare with the roundels. Certainly nothing as light as the profile suggests.

Am I the only one to wonder about the origin of the black? Trianges of Red and Blue would look very much like that.....however, I suspect that such red and blue markings were in use elsewhere in the RAF (23 Sq - but they used squares) and so the RAuxAF unit had to make some compromise, which it avoided postwar?

Edited by Graham Boak
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There is a photo of Demon K3779 on page 8 of Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol 7/1 Oct 1984 and like in Edgar's post the squadron colours are quoted as turquoise and black. The photo appears to be the same one as in Dave Fleming's post.

Edited by rod mcq
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Many thanks for the comments which were of immediate help. The profile on the RAF website is different and makes me wonder how accurate these profiles are. However, looking at the photo I can't help questioning the interpretation of the lighter coloured triangles as light blue. The contrast between these and the blue of the roundels does look a bit too strong for them to both be blues. Any thoughts?

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On their Vampires postwar, 608's squadron colours were blue and red, diagonally divided by a green band. There has been discussion in Model Aircraft Monthly fairly recently as to the correct colour for the band. The question was raised as to why the postwar colours differed from the prewar blue and black. Answer came there none.

Looks yellow to me! Compare with the trolley.

http://picture.stockton.gov.uk/genpreviewe...ge=277t8105.jpg

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To throw in another wobbly. Some 20 odd years ago an elderly customer of mine from Cleveland regularly purchased my 48th Hart/Demon to build as aircraft he had seen in his youth. He was a huge fan of 608 and this is one of the photos he sent me. It's of a 608 Demon in colours he had noted in the 30's.

John

File0998.jpg

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Thanks for that John - it seems to settle matters rather comprehensively and it matches the photo very well.

Chris

I have found more conclusive info but Photobucket is down at the moment so I will post later.

John

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Chris

I have found more conclusive info but Photobucket is down at the moment so I will post later.

John

More 608 Sqn info. I don't know if your monitor will pick up the delicate Eau de nil shade but the inscriptions on the reverse tell all. I also have somewhere chapter and verse as to the date the spearpoint badge came in. Sadly I cannot recall the guys name at this point, but I will check my records. I believe these models to be pretty accurate as there were few colour photos at this time so the painting is very useful. somewhere I have others, including a camoflaged one.

John

File034.jpg

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File036.jpg

File037.jpg

Edited by John Aero
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Once again many thanks my monitor showed the eau de nil. A very subtle and nice colour scheme but different to other interpretations. Your correspondent certainly did love 608 Squadron.

Interesting that the colours in Silver Wings are quite wrong. This probably came from Owen Thetford who with Alec Lumsden were both customers of mine. I have been slow to realise that some of the other "model" pictures are also treasure troves as I have some of 607 and 608's Wapitis (all Frog converts).

John

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Given the amount of information that Silver Wings includes; it having a mistake doesn't surprise me. You do all the research, cross check and confirm and then when you think you are ready you publish. Always after you have done so the extra information comes to light which invalidates one or two of your statements or conclusions. It seems to be an inevitable part of the process of publishing a book of this sort.

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Hi All,

Just to stir the pot a little, have a look at the illustration on the back cover of Aeroguide Classics No.5, The Hart family, even more variation.

Regards,

Glenn

Again this illustration seems to have the same base as the RAF website. My eyewitness correspondent obviously took accurate note of events and on one photo (model) of a "Munich" a/c which carried codes but no roundels he notes the wheel nuts and spinner tip were Blue. Also the Sqn Hart trainer had Dark Green wheel hubs and spinner. The Sqn colours he describes as Black and (he used as the nearest paint match) Sky. The use of the word Sky must not be confused with the later underside colour but as the nearest match. To me Sky is nearer to a very light turquoise than the light blues on some illustrations.

I have scanned the (Yellow) Hart T and the Demon in grayscale and I think the "Sky" matches the Thornaby photo quite well. And yes, some Hart Trainers had tail wheels.

John

Note: the Aeroguide artist hasn't put a tailwheel on the Demon where there is one on the photo.

File038.jpg

File039.jpg

Edited by John Aero
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I haven't seen the Aeroguide Classics but if it was the same as the RAF website it was the scheme that prompted my question. The Mushroom Models Hart book also includes a green and black interpretation for 608 but I was never quite sure how they arrived at that as the green is clearly too dark. I favour the eau-de-nil explanation on the painting but I feel that your correspondent was certainly a reliable observer and very accurate in his observations.

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The use of the word Sky must not be confused with the later underside colour but as the nearest match. To me Sky is nearer to a very light turquoise than the light blues on some illustrations.

This all shows how loose terminology is when applied to colours. In BS 381C, Eau de Nil is quite a strong hue [nearest Methuen equivalent to my eyes is 28C5] and it is a yellowish pale green, very much like the later Sky. As the Stockton on Tees photo was taken using orthochrome film, any shade in the yellow to red area would appear darker than a colour of a bluer hue. Since the lighter triangles look virtually white, it would appear that these triangles are more towards the blue end of the spectrum and, therefore, probably more like the early Sky, bearing in mind that blues will appear much lighter in orthochrome than they would in Panchromatic film. A light turqouise sounds good, around Methuen 24A3/4, maybe, which puts it in the rough area of Cambridge blue.

Isn't idle speculation fun - nobody is going to come up with a Kodachrome of the real thing, unfortunately, so an educated guess is going to have to do. Even a photo of a painting can have a lot of colour drift depending on lighting and this shifts even more when viewed on a monitor. Modern repro techniques are also prone to large changes in the colours - if I hold my original paintings against some of the Osprey covers, there are huge differences. The green in the Polish Aces book looks close to the original but in the book of cover artwork, the green appears as brown, not greenish brown even, but brown brown !

Edited by Iain Art
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The use of the word Sky must not be confused with the later underside colour but as the nearest match. To me Sky is nearer to a very light turquoise than the light blues on some illustrations.

This all shows how loose terminology is when applied to colours. In BS 381C, Eau de Nil is quite a strong hue [nearest Methuen equivalent to my eyes is 28C5] and it is a yellowish pale green, very much like the later Sky. As the Stockton on Tees photo was taken using orthochrome film, any shade in the yellow to red area would appear darker than a colour of a bluer hue. Since the lighter triangles look virtually white, it would appear that these triangles are more towards the blue end of the spectrum and, therefore, probably more like the early Sky, bearing in mind that blues will appear much lighter in orthochrome than they would in Panchromatic film. A light turqouise sounds good, around Methuen 24A3/4, maybe, which puts it in the rough area of Cambridge blue.

Isn't idle speculation fun - nobody is going to come up with a Kodachrome of the real thing, unfortunately, so an educated guess is going to have to do. Even a photo of a painting can have a lot of colour drift depending on lighting and this shifts even more when viewed on a monitor. Modern repro techniques are also prone to large changes in the colours - if I hold my original paintings against some of the Osprey covers, there are huge differences. The green in the Polish Aces book looks close to the original but in the book of cover artwork, the green appears as brown, not greenish brown even, but brown brown !

Hi

Unfortunately I don't have a Methuen book or BS colours, do have the Fedral standards. Sadly I can't quiz the gentleman who made and photographed the models as I fear he has long departed us.

However rather than purely idle speculation, Maurice had two advantages, he was an eyewitness and also an enthusiast who spent a lot of time hanging his nose over aerodrome fences in the area around Stockton on Tees and recorded what he saw. He was also making models long before my kits came out. So I have only the colour descriptions he uses, such as the muddy waters of the Nile (Eau de Nil) which even that description must change depending on the season :) I always understood it to be a colour something like the house colour of racing Talbots or the bottoms of Spits

Maurice qualified it as pale green or Sky type S on some photos and he would have used Humbrol paints. I would assume he was happy matching his model to his painting (in the flesh). I further think that the the word Turquoise which has been used elsewhere to describe the colour is misleading as the hull of my small yacht (and old Volvo) is Turquoise and is as far removed from Sky as Pink is to Red. So where does this leave us. I fancy a slightly bluer Sky.

Cheers

John

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A difficult colour to pin down - to be honest my first impression was a kind of light duck egg green (or sky as it became even though it was a later colouur). Are there any contemporary records of these schemes in Air Ministry files. Whilst it may be impossible to get an exact match one wonders if an official description still survives?

Christopher

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Hi

Unfortunately I don't have a Methuen book or BS colours, do have the Fedral standards. Sadly I can't quiz the gentleman who made and photographed the models as I fear he has long departed us.

However rather than purely idle speculation, Maurice had two advantages, he was an eyewitness and also an enthusiast who spent a lot of time hanging his nose over aerodrome fences in the area around Stockton on Tees and recorded what he saw. He was also making models long before my kits came out. So I have only the colour descriptions he uses, such as the muddy waters of the Nile (Eau de Nil) which even that description must change depending on the season :) I always understood it to be a colour something like the house colour of racing Talbots or the bottoms of Spits

Maurice qualified it as pale green or Sky type S on some photos and he would have used Humbrol paints. I would assume he was happy matching his model to his painting (in the flesh). I further think that the the word Turquoise which has been used elsewhere to describe the colour is misleading as the hull of my small yacht (and old Volvo) is Turquoise and is as far removed from Sky as Pink is to Red. So where does this leave us. I fancy a slightly bluer Sky.

Cheers

John

John, the idle speculation was mine. At the back of the Methuen book is a list of generally recognised and agreed colour descriptions and it was to these that I was referring. It is a very useful little book as a supplement to BS and FS references.

The bottom line is that we are in the approximately correct area for that colour and without a colour chip, no one is going to come up with a better solution.

Iain

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Thanks for all the varied input. I accept what Iain is pointing out and I'm no colour guru, in fact I went to art school so long ago we had to chew the ends of sticks to make brushes. The devils in the naming of a colour, I wonder who first called 608's colour Turquoise. " Well sir it's a light greeny blue" "Oh you mean Turquoise then"!. Thanks for the BS reference Graham.

I'm happy that 608's colours are Black and a blueish Sky, certainly not as strong as the example in Silver Wings to fall in line with Davids picture ref.

Now about the Wapiti's that 607 and 608 had. Maurice shows them as 607 gloss Mauve (heres another name to conjure with) top decking with a Yellow (Stone) cheat line and 608 as Apple Green top decking. Or is this a Yellow brick road too far? :hypnotised:

John

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