Jump to content


Photo

US WWII Neutral Grey (gray)


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 spitfire

spitfire

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Gold Member
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 01:46 PM

Help,
Nice simple paint scheme for my P-39D, Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Gray 43 I thought, BUT I've just sprayed the undersides with WEM colourcoats Neutral Grey 41 and it seems awfully dark when compared with my usual paint Xtracolor X133 (FS16270). Mind you most of the models I build have Sky undersides !
My IPMS colour cross reference guide states FS36173, which matches the Colourcoats paint colour, but most of the WW2 US aircraft models that I have seen have the lighter colour. Any words of wisdom out there ?

Cheers

Den

#2 Red Dragon

Red Dragon

    Getting older and I hope to continue doing so.

  • Gold Member
  • 581 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 01:52 PM

The "original" Neutral Gray was quite dark, often showing darker than the Olive Drab uppersurfaces, it was replaced by a lighter gray, I have not got my references to hand so cannot give you the specs/date's at the moment.

Regards

Phil


Help,
Nice simple paint scheme for my P-39D, Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Gray 43 I thought, BUT I've just sprayed the undersides with WEM colourcoats Neutral Grey 41 and it seems awfully dark when compared with my usual paint Xtracolor X133 (FS16270). Mind you most of the models I build have Sky undersides !
My IPMS colour cross reference guide states FS36173, which matches the Colourcoats paint colour, but most of the WW2 US aircraft models that I have seen have the lighter colour. Any words of wisdom out there ?

Cheers

Den



#3 cmatthewbacon

cmatthewbacon

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Members
  • 1,571 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:43 PM

Neutral Gray ANA 43 matches 36173
Neutral Gray FS is defined as FS36270 (eg same as 16270) and is lighter

Looks as though in August 1942, colours were defined as ANA colours, but it took a while for existing paint to be used up.

http://www.us-aircra...ingedflight.htm

has some information.

Though if the explanation is correct, it should have STARTED OUT as the lighter FS colour, and then become the darker ANA colour...

bestest,
M.

#4 Matt Roberts

Matt Roberts

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Sadly Missed
  • 1,680 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 05:04 PM

Polyscale ANA Neutral Gray is close to modern Gunship Gray (36118) or topside RAF gray (Sea Gray). I freely admit using modern Neutral Gray as my underside colour on early USAAF aircraft despite seeing a few colour pics where the dark gray is right, it just doesn't look 'right' on my models. It could be something to do with the dreaded 'scale effect' where model colors should look lighter than the 'correct' colors to properly portray what the plane would look like to the human eye at 50-100 feet (a foot or two for a 48th or 72nd build). Considering that I am getting away somewhat from the exact colour thinking especially where cockpit and other colors that weather badly are concerned.

My last one was a pre-war Carolina Wargames P-39D, my couple since have been 36270.

Now start worrying about Olive Drabs! :lol:

Matt

#5 spitfire

spitfire

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Gold Member
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 07:34 PM

Seems like a can of worms here (again), I think I'll go with the paint I have already sprayed as there appears to be a greater than evens chance that it is right.
The link to us-aircraft.com certainly has some good info.

Thanks for the input guys.

Cheers

Den

#6 walrus

walrus

    Completely Obsessed Member

  • Banned
  • 5,061 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:02 PM

Now start worrying about Olive Drabs! :lol:


NOOOO! :frantic:

never mind AMS- OD syndrome can be equally debilitating :yikes:

#7 Steven Eisenman

Steven Eisenman

    "A man, a computer, an opinion"

  • Members
  • 1,470 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:19 PM

The can of worms is the model paints. Why should White Ensign or any one be the "standard".

Neutral Gray 43 was not made lighter, it was Neutral Gray 43. It is allegedly 50% Black and 50% white.

ANA 603 Sea gray was to replace NG and be acceptable to the British as Ocean Gray and Extra Dark Sea Gray. The USAAF never adopted the use of ANA 603, it continued with NG 43. The P-47 and Corsair I, II, III for the British wore it.

The Klaus IPMS paint guide give NG 43 an FS approximation of 36173. ANA 603 has an FS approximation of 36118.

#8 plastic

plastic

    Established Member

  • Members
  • 343 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:38 PM

Anyone remember the old days when you went along to the LHS and bought Humbrols Olive Drab and some kind of grey that looked right?

Those were the days---no AMS, no OD syndrome---no vallium!

Wonderful :clif:

#9 Steven Eisenman

Steven Eisenman

    "A man, a computer, an opinion"

  • Members
  • 1,470 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 09:56 PM

If the real paint manufacturers were not concerned with an exact match, why should we be?

The exact match school of model paints makes me chuckle, and when it comes to Italian colors, I fall down laughing.

So many variables, so little time.

#10 plastic

plastic

    Established Member

  • Members
  • 343 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

Tell U wot gets me Steve, (not to hijack the thread), is this 'scale effect' business. Now If you apply this 'scale effect' when painting, then, surely you are not going to have the right colour at the end of the day yes?

Plus, if I take a photo of a plane and the result looks like about say 1/72, how come the colours don't change to take account of 'scale effect'?

If you stand at the appropriate distance from a plane, so that it looks about the right size for the scale your doing, the colour doesn't change does it?

Strange---

#11 cmatthewbacon

cmatthewbacon

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Members
  • 1,571 posts

Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:17 PM

... I forgot to add... personally I just leave it in Halfords Grey Primer, and do some chalk pastel weathering on it!

bestest,
M.

#12 Steven Eisenman

Steven Eisenman

    "A man, a computer, an opinion"

  • Members
  • 1,470 posts

Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:09 PM

Scale effect! Arrrgggghhhh. Another can o'worms. Again variables are at play. The model paint itself, light in the room, one's personal preference.

If you use Xtracrylics, then the 70/71 has a proper low contrast. But from a couple feet away, it looks like one colour. Well that may be correct, but there is an artistic issue in modeling. You don't want the high contrast of the Model Master 70/71, but you do want some contrast, just to indicate two colors are used on the model. So one may need to lighten the 71 with a touch of light gray.

No one knows what the colour really looked like, so at the end of the day it is all subjective. We have an idea of what a colour was supposed to be.

#13 Jennings Heilig

Jennings Heilig

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Banned
  • 4,646 posts

Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:54 AM

Xtracolor X133 (FS16270)... My IPMS colour cross reference guide states FS36173, which matches the Colourcoats paint colour, but most of the WW2 US aircraft models that I have seen have the lighter colour.


You just hit the nail on head. Somehow Xtracolor got the basic colour of Neutral Gray 43 wrong a long time ago, and it's snowballed since. NG 43 (fresh, to spec) is, as you say, a very dark colour. Depending on lighting, weathering, film, exposure, etc, it can appear lighter, darker, or the same value as OD in b&w photos. But out of the can, fresh from the factory, NG 43 is a pretty dark colour.

J

#14 Edgar

Edgar

    Completely Obsessed Member

  • Members
  • 5,100 posts

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:46 AM

I have a copy of a book "United States Camouflage WWII," produced in 1964, by the IPMS(US, I presume,) which comes complete with a set of (claimed to be original) colour chips, for the USAAF & USN, which are stated to be "the ones actually used to mix the official camouflage paints." Is it any use, or has it been discredited?
Edgar

#15 spitfire

spitfire

    Very Obsessed Member

  • Gold Member
  • 3,122 posts

Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:59 AM

It's absolutely useless Edgar, totally discredited, I think you should send it to me, I won't charge a penny for taking it off your hands !

Cheers

Den