Deon Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hi Ive just picked up a couple of 1/72 B/C mustangs. Im going to do at least one as a Raf bird but Im not sure about the differences between the B and C and Raf mark 3 Ive got the Academy B and a really fine P51 C vacform with optional blown hood The C is illustrated in RaF markings, so is it correct to assume the C is the same as the Mk3? Any help much appreciated Deon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Hi Ive just picked up a couple of 1/72 B/C mustangs. Im going to do at least one as a Raf bird but Im not sure about the differences between the B and C and Raf mark 3 Ive got the Academy B and a really fine P51 C vacform with optional blown hood The C is illustrated in RaF markings, so is it correct to assume the C is the same as the Mk3? Any help much appreciated Deon Hi Deon - the RAF didn't distinguish between the B or C as far as their Mk III designation was concerned (and the only differences between the B and C are which factory they were made in). Similarly the blown "malcolm" hood could be fitted to either the B or C as it was a field modification. Ditto with the fin fillet seen on some Bs and Cs too- though this was a factory mod I believe. In general RAF Mk IIIs operating over UK or Northern Europe tended to have the malcolm hoods fitted ( better visisbility for air to air combat), whereas those operated in Italy by the RAF and RAAF tended to have the original birdcage canopies ( less air to air opposition so less need for the mod) . As with all "in generals" there are exceptions which prove the rule of course! So you can use a B or a C to make a Mk III ( the only way you will be really able to tell which model is which is from the US Bu Aer serial number) Hopoe this helps Jonners Edited January 23, 2009 by Jon Kunac-Tabinor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deon Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thanks Jonners, that solves that little problem! Ill check out some references to find out which sqns operated where and do one ETO and one from Sicily / Italy and remember to check the photos for the fin fillet. Cheers Deon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks Jonners, that solves that little problem!Ill check out some references to find out which sqns operated where and do one ETO and one from Sicily / Italy and remember to check the photos for the fin fillet. Cheers Deon Hi Deon, I can't really add anything to what Jonners said as he's spot on. He's right in that in the main the UK based Mustangs had the Malcolm Hood - I had to look pretty hard to find an exception for my own recent build but there are a few. The Italian Mustangs mainly had the 'American' Hood. More importantly though, there were differences in colour schemes - whilst the UK based 'stangs would have had the standard day fighter camo of Dark Green/Ocean Grey with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces, the Italian Mustangs were probably painted in US equivalent colours (I say probably because this was a subject of a whole thread in it's own right and there was significant disagreement....) Edited January 23, 2009 by timbo33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deon Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thanks Timbo, I'll leave the agro over Us colours in Italy till another day! I think Ill use the spare canopy from the academy kit ( which has both cage and blown) on the vacform as the vacforms canopies are crushed although the quarter lights are salvageable. Also the vacform has no fillet, and the academy does so a Ill use a photo reference to determine which kit gets used for which theatre (including Pacific) Now all I need is a GB to motivate me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks Jonners, that solves that little problem!Ill check out some references to find out which sqns operated where and do one ETO and one from Sicily / Italy and remember to check the photos for the fin fillet. Cheers Deon Hi Deon - well there's 112 sqn from Italy with their lovely sharkmouths, and 3 sqn RAAF with that nice blue fin with the southern cross, again form italy Jonners Edited January 23, 2009 by Jon Kunac-Tabinor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks Timbo,I'll leave the agro over Us colours in Italy till another day! I think Ill use the spare canopy from the academy kit ( which has both cage and blown) on the vacform as the vacforms canopies are crushed although the quarter lights are salvageable. Also the vacform has no fillet, and the academy does so a Ill use a photo reference to determine which kit gets used for which theatre (including Pacific) Now all I need is a GB to motivate me! You can join the D-Day GB starting on 6th Feb - RAF Mustangs definitely flew over Normandy as my recent build depicts. Edited January 23, 2009 by timbo33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deon Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thanks for the sqn info Jonners, I'll look up some decals and I'll put myself up for the D Day GB timboanother Mk 3 on the loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Collins Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Gents, I may be wrong, but something scratching at the back of my head says that all RAF Mustang Mk IIIs had the 'spade grip' control stick instead of the original 'pistol grip' stick. Can't get to my references right now, but.... Physically, that and the radios are the only differences that I know of. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Gents, I may be wrong, but something scratching at the back of my head says that all RAF Mustang Mk IIIs had the 'spade grip' control stick instead of the original 'pistol grip' stick. Can't get to my references right now, but.... Physically, that and the radios are the only differences that I know of. Steve Hi Steve - I think the spade grip idea is false - I dont think any (RAF or otherwise) Mustangs had this - it may have been suggested in the original spec, but to the best of my knowledge alll RAF issue mustangs had the standard pistol grip. Jonners - willing to be proved wrong of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Gents, I may be wrong, but something scratching at the back of my head says that all RAF Mustang Mk IIIs had the 'spade grip' control stick instead of the original 'pistol grip' stick. Can't get to my references right now, but.... Physically, that and the radios are the only differences that I know of. Steve Actually Steve's right about the radios - the RAF version has a different radio installation to the US version, though how big a deal it would be in 1/72 I don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deon Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 I guess getting a copy of the Mk3 pilots notes might be worthwhile, Thanks for the heads up gents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 More importantly though, there were differences in colour schemes - whilst the UK based 'stangs would have had the standard day fighter camo of Dark Green/Ocean Grey with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces, the Italian Mustangs were probably painted in US equivalent colours (I say probably because this was a subject of a whole thread in it's own right and there was significant disagreement....) Feel free to put me right, fellows, but my understanding is the other way round! NW European theatre Mustangs were supposedly delivered in the US substitute colours, while Med' theatre aircraft were painted locally at the MU's and probably wore the standard Day Fighter Scheme colours. I've also heard of the possibility of RAF aircraft appearing in Temperate Land in Italy. I'm going by a discussion in the 'Threads' area of the IPMS Canada website. I daresay Messrs. Brooks, Boak or Eisenmann would be much more help here, as I'm no authority at all. Can of worms eh? No wonder the only RAF Mustang I've come within the roar of an bottom of finishing is a NM/silver one. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Collins Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hi Steve - I think the spade grip idea is false - I dont think any (RAF or otherwise) Mustangs had this - it may have been suggested in the original spec, but to the best of my knowledge alll RAF issue mustangs had the standard pistol grip.Jonners - willing to be proved wrong of course Not trying to prove you wrong, but I've just got to ease that itch. I'll do some digging and see if I can find where I read that they were changed to the spade grips at the MUs when they were received. I'll get back to you. If you're right it would certainly make things easier, since I don't think I have a single Mustang kit with a spade grip in it, even the ones marked as RAF. But then, I only build 1/72. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Not trying to prove you wrong, but I've just got to ease that itch. I'll do some digging and see if I can find where I read that they were changed to the spade grips at the MUs when they were received. I'll get back to you. If you're right it would certainly make things easier, since I don't think I have a single Mustang kit with a spade grip in it, even the ones marked as RAF. But then, I only build 1/72. Steve hi Steve - no problems - the itch that itches most needs scratching first I'm going from memory on that one - namely of some very good discussions over at Hyperscale, a while back albeit, - by some people who know Mustangs pretty well. But, as they say, new stuff turns up all the time - so I'd be very interested to see where you scratching gets to you to, as long as its not casualty of course.... cheers Jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZP Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Not trying to prove you wrong, but I've just got to ease that itch. I'll do some digging and see if I can find where I read that they were changed to the spade grips at the MUs when they were received. I'll get back to you. If you're right it would certainly make things easier, since I don't think I have a single Mustang kit with a spade grip in it, even the ones marked as RAF. But then, I only build 1/72. Steve Steve, Not trying to prove you wrong either, but I've seen those references too and photographic evidence shows otherwise. The RAF Mustangs had the standard N.American pistol grip. There are photos of the cockpits of Polish Mustang IIIs that show the standard grip, and I believe the illustrations in the Air Ministry Mustang III Pilot's Notes also show the pistol grip. Of course all that stuff is on my computer at home. I should actually be working at the moment... Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Jiff Kenobi Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I've not done the research, so I don't know what's correct, but IIRC there's a cockpit photo from an RAF Allison-engined Mustang in SS Mustang in Action book, showing the spade grip. Perhaps people are assuming that, therefore, all RAF Mustangs had spade grips? Incidentally, Revell do both the P-51B and Mustang III as separate kits in 1/72, and the Mustang III kit includes an alternative spade grip stick not found in the P-51B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Feel free to put me right, fellows, but my understanding is the other way round! NW European theatre Mustangs were supposedly delivered in the US substitute colours, while Med' theatre aircraft were painted locally at the MU's and probably wore the standard Day Fighter Scheme colours. I've also heard of the possibility of RAF aircraft appearing in Temperate Land in Italy. Joseph My understanding is that aircraft delivered to the UK were repainted into Day Fighter using the usual RAF colours. I would prefer to be evasive on the precise US Equivalents: OD and Sea Gray are what I used to believe but some argue that they were still in Temperate Land: DG/DE. It was common in Italy to repaint the Desert scheme into the Temperate Land. It was less common to repaint the Day Fighter. I'd check on the Australian IPMS site for the latest thinking about 3 Sq RAAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stein Meum Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I am quite sure that aircraft ordered by the BAPC in the late 30's up to 1940/41 were built to British spesifications, and that fighters were delivered with the spade grip. I once interviewed a Norwegian pilot, Hans Ravn, who briefly flew the Tomahawk Mk. II with 250 Sqn, and he definitely remembers the spade grip as "almost identical" to the Hurricane stick. I'm not sure about the Kittyhawks, though. Delivered at a later date, and many under the Lend/Lease scheme would most likely have the U.S. pistol grip. Likewise Mustangs, early Allison Mustangs with spade grip, later Merlin Mustangs with pistol grip. Some aircraft, like the Hudson, were delivered with the RAF Cockpit green interior, but I'm not sure about the Curtiss and North American planes. Bronze Green, and Green Chromate, was extensively used by both companies for their fighters, Dallas-built P-51B/C-NT's being the first Mustangs to feature Interior Green cockpits, P-51B/D-NA used Bronze Green well into 1944 before switching to Interior Green. I build my Tomahawks and Mustang MK. I/Ia/II with spade grips, Kittyhawks and Mustang Mk. III/IV/IVa with pistol grips. Stein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The RAF Mustang Mk I was equipped with the pistol grip. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The RAF Mustang Mk I was equipped with the pistol grip.John Hi John, Welcome to Britmodeller. I'm sure one of the moderators will soon pick you up as a newbie and welcome you formally. With regard to the Pistol Grip do you have any references as this has been a contentious subject in the past and any definitive evidence always helps clarify the position for other members . Timl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 With regard to the Pistol Grip do you have any references as this has been a contentious subject in the past and any definitive evidence always helps clarify the position for other members .Timl Here's a shot of 400 Sqn Mk I showing the pistol grip. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Cool Photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deon Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 I don't suppose thats a yellow dot on the armour behind the 'pilots' head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo33 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I don't suppose thats a yellow dot on the armour behind the 'pilots' head? Looks like it dunnit!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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